Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low Carb Health & Technical Forums > Dr.Bernstein & Diabetes
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Tue, Sep-12-17, 02:43
fhutt1 fhutt1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 6
 
Plan: Fung, Rosedale
Stats: 236/176/157 Male 180cm
BF:
Progress:
Default Reversing insulin resistance

I have been on the Atkins diet, on and off for a long time.
I have now found Dr Fung's website as well as Dr Rosedale's website.
It was on Dr Fung's website that I found out that insulin resistance can be reversed. Dr Fung mentions that very established insulin resistance will take some time. However, he does not elaborate on this.

Although the Atkins diet has been successful at reducing my weight, over time, it has always returned (due feasting too often). My insulin resistance has only increased over this time. Now I am following Dr Fung's recommendation regarding intermittent fasting in my attempt to reverse my insulin resistance.

So, I actually have 2 questions:
1. How do I monitor my progress towards reversal?
2. How long will it take from anyone's experience?
Thanks

Last edited by fhutt1 : Tue, Sep-12-17 at 02:53.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Tue, Sep-12-17, 15:50
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,817
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 43%
Default

how have you been measuring your increased "insulin resistance"? Can you share that with us?
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Tue, Sep-12-17, 19:17
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

From what I have read, beta cells that have been destroyed cannot be regenerated, but damaged beta cells can be healed and recover lost functionality.

Also, from what I have read, a LC diet actually induces insulin resistance temporarily as a result of ketosis.

Once I reach my target weight, I plan to experiment a bit and see what happens as I gradually reintroduce a few more carbs to my diet. Not sure if I'll be "cured" but on 20 carbs a day I've been losing more than 3 pounds a week for the past 4 weeks so I am assuming that once I get where I want to be, I can eat a few more carbs without gaining any weight. I'm going to have to watch it closely and find the right balance. I don't want to go back to my old ways and wind up fat again.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Tue, Sep-12-17, 19:18
fhutt1 fhutt1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 6
 
Plan: Fung, Rosedale
Stats: 236/176/157 Male 180cm
BF:
Progress:
Default

I have read a lot of people saying that they are now better after LCHF because their glucose and A1C readings have improved. I've had these results too.

On a routine blood test I found my glucose at 7.4 mmol/L a couple of years ago. After some discussion with my doctor, he agreed to wait for six months before going on medication. The six months gave me the opportunity to go on the Atkins diet (I knew I could lose weight). After the six months my glucose dropped to 5.2 mmol/L and A1C to about 5.3.

I thought my problems were over until I feasted (had to go to a wedding). I measured my glucose next morning to find that it was around 8.5. Obviously I was not out of trouble. I started reading about insulin resistance. A very complicated test appears to be a glucose tolerance test. I did a glucose tolerance test at home and found that my graph shows that I am very resistant (very pre-diabetic or actually am a diabetic). I found Dr Fung's website and realised that insulin resistance is reversible.

I am now doing intermittent fasting as well as a diet of low carb, adequate protein and high fat. I have done this now for about 2 months with the occasional feasting (weddings and birthday party invitations).

I am now trying to find out if there is a better way to test and monitor progress of reversing the insulin resistance than doing glucose tolerance testing regularly.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Tue, Sep-12-17, 19:35
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,817
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 43%
Default

You are asking some really good and difficult questions. I myself had not developed any metabolic issues that alarmed doctors - but alarmed myself in the form of excessive weight and a bottomless pit when it came to eating carbohydrate. I could eat them, fall asleep, wake up and be just as hungry as I was before.

In particular when I ate candy, which I rarely did, believe it or not, it never satisfied and I'd eat all that I had. Something in that is not right

I didn't pay much attention to my reaction to different foods and timings like others have here, Ken comes to mind http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=478139

I think he's pretty convinced he's done loads to "reverse" his "insulin resistance" He's kept a lot of data, been very vigilant and observant on how his changing body behaves. He has also experimented once or twice in a controlled manner with "bad" foods, Some pie and an eclair if I recall - timer and BG meter in hand.

I also follow Dr. Fung and appreciate his insights and work he does with suffering people, seemingly bringing and end to that aspect of their suffering with something as simple as not eating or modifying WHEN they eat.

Spend more time on this site, ask questions and contribute. I hope you find the answers you are looking for. Time will tell.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Tue, Sep-12-17, 19:38
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhutt1
I thought my problems were over until I feasted (had to go to a wedding). I measured my glucose next morning to find that it was around 8.5. Obviously I was not out of trouble. I started reading about insulin resistance.


My experience thus far has been similar to yours. I was diagnosed pre-diabetic 2 years ago and didn't do much about it. ~5 weeks ago I went on low carb after my A1C shot up over 10. My fasting BG was 250 and spiking up to 325 after a meal. Right now I my BG is averaging about 120.

I've been doing a lot of reading. Google some of the articles that talk about LC diets inducing insulin resistance. As I understand it, just as it takes your body time to become "fat adapted" it would also take time for your body to adjust to carbs when you end a ketogenic diet. I don't think that suddenly ending your diet, running right out and scarfing down a bunch of carbs is going to give you an accurate picture, if indeed the LC diet INDUCES a form of insulin resistance. I plan to do it gradually, giving my body a few weeks to adjust before doing anything like a glucose tolerance test.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Tue, Sep-12-17, 19:43
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,817
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 43%
Default

Good insight Bill, I've seen teaser on this site talk about this I believe. Hope he stops by this thread too for some clarification or ... a steak or somthing
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Tue, Sep-12-17, 20:32
fhutt1 fhutt1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 6
 
Plan: Fung, Rosedale
Stats: 236/176/157 Male 180cm
BF:
Progress:
Default

Thank you for the insights.

I have read most of what Dr Fung has written. With his references to research results, he has proven to my satisfaction that the culprit is insulin. He has proven to me that the level of insulin determines body weight and the body will do whatever it takes to make it so, in the long term. Therefore, anyone with a weight problem has an elevated insulin problem (ie. insulin resistance).

As Dr Fung states, a LCHF diet will maintain glucose and insulin levels, and even prevent worsening, but will not reverse any insulin resistance in the short term. However, if insulin resistance took 20 years to develop, an LCHF diet will reverse the resistance but will also take 20 years.

Fasting is required to reverse insulin resistance on a shorter term. However, Dr Fung does not give a time span.

It would be interesting if anyone knows anything more about this.

Last edited by fhutt1 : Tue, Sep-12-17 at 21:51.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Wed, Sep-13-17, 03:33
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,390
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Supposedly the best way to determine insulin resistance is a Five hour Glucose Plus Insulin resistance test. Almost no doctor will order that if there is even a lab that does it.

There is a much simplier and quite inexpensive Fasting Insulin Test that some doctors use, and then they plug that and fasting glucose into the HOMA-IR formula. HOMA-IR stands for Homeostatic Model Assessment of Insulin Resistance. The meaningful part of the acronym is “insulin resistance”. It marks for both the presence and extent of any insulin resistance.

It's not perfect, a LC doctor needs to interprete the HOMA-IR score in the context of your overall health, but it does explain why some "think" LC causes insulin resistance.

Dr Naiman's terrific post on this seemingly contrary but perfectly normal result of LC eating:

https://www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-...l-high-low-carb

I would not assume this is what is happening with you until you have Fasting Insulin tests consistently under 5 for a period of time. Since there is no home test for Insulin, so usually only tested annually. If remembered correctly, after about two years of VLC I was at a healthy BMI and in that range. EDIT: My insulin was 9.6 near the start (but after having been LC about 6 months so that is not a real baseline), under 5 since, 3.6 last tested. I am the classic example used in this post. My FBG hangs around 100 but with a 3.6 insulin, HOMA-IR is .88. Multi-day fasting will drop my FBG much lower, and a longer pre-blood draw fast also dropped my insulin "below normal" (works , but not recommended )

Great Video on IR:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/member/p...dge#more-830243

And the Very Simplest and Free measures of Insulin Sensitivity is a Waist to Height ratio less than .5. Dr Naiman discusses his measures in his video.

http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/2...8gxxvi5xklrzr2c

how to measure: https://www.dietdoctor.com/simple-w...lth-measurement

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Sep-13-17 at 07:16.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Wed, Sep-13-17, 04:13
fhutt1 fhutt1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 6
 
Plan: Fung, Rosedale
Stats: 236/176/157 Male 180cm
BF:
Progress:
Default

Thank you Janet for the links and of course for the HOMA-IR calculation idea. This would be so simple if insulin could be checked as easily as the glucose.

Even though the glucose tolerance test is long and cumbersome, it can be done at home. The only problem with the test is that it requires the ingestion of 75g of glucose (with water) in one go. For those with bad insulin resistance, the glucose level rises too high to be very safe. Therefore, the resistance needs to be brought down somewhat to be able to perform the test safely.

Dr Ron Rosedale had a simpler idea. Rather than use 75g of glucose for the test, he uses a toast (maybe a couple), about 25g of carbohydrate. This would be much safer. He can do this because due to the number of patients he had, he knew what was a normal response. Unfortunately, he has not disclosed the normal curve of glucose response to the 25g of carbohydrate.

On my next regular blood test I will ask my doctor to test for fasting insulin as well so I can calculate the HOMA-IR. I will see if it correlates with my glucose tolerance test. Unfortunately, my next regular blood test is only due next March. But, by that time I might have some better results.

PS: Jenet, the 2nd link about IR is actually about eating low carb.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Wed, Sep-13-17, 05:14
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,390
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

The first few minutes of the second video is about HOMA-IR, what are good levels of that test, and why. The video is titled "What causes Insulin Resistance" which might be useful to the original question, but his intro about the tests he uses was the reason it was linked.

Yes, you can do a GTT at home, but that tells you little about your Insulin. Dr Kraft was the first doctor to test Insulin also at the same hourly intervals during a five hour glucose tolerance test. Glucose is a lagging indicator of diabetes if you will, why Dr Fung focuses on insulin. Amy Berger also has good info on it. http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2015/0...-insulin-1.html

Quote:
With the help of some very cool people in the low-carb, high-fat (LCHF) world, I have been introduced to a new concept—well, new to me, but certainly not “new” at all—and I’d like to share it with you. There’s a lot to talk about, but the overall theme boils down to this: by focusing almost exclusively on blood glucose, the medical and nutrition professions have been missing the boat on a much larger, much more insidious problem: insulin. As you know, blood glucose and insulin are intimately related. It’s hard to discuss one without the other. But when was the last time your basic bloodwork panel included a measurement of your insulin levels? Have you ever had a doctor look at anything but your fasting glucose and maybe your A1c if (s)he was concerned about your blood sugar management? (Never mind that the A1c isn’t even included in a typical blood panel. You often have to specifically request it.) If you’ve ever been the victim of experienced an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT), did your doctor measure your insulin levels, or only your blood glucose?



https://profgrant.com/2013/08/16/jo...inemia-matters/

http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/2...ent-of-diabetes

Of course, all this information is moot if your insulin has never been tested! Anyone being treated for diabetes should have had the test. But you can also have it done at a direct to consumer lab anytime without a doctor for about $30.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Wed, Sep-13-17, 05:43
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 12,917
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

I like the idea of a glucose tolerance test with a much smaller amount of glucose used. One thing here--are you trying to be average, or are you trying to improve your own metabolism? Whether you know what an ideal curve should look like or not, you'll know from test to test whether you've improved, at least, the closer to flat your blood glucose changes get, the better.

Beta cell regeneration? Maybe. One thing you have to remember, people are fairly reluctant to donate bits of their pancreas in exchange for $50 and an "I helped science fight diabetes" t-shirt, or whatever it is people get in exchange for being in a clinical trial.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed...betic-pancreas/

Fasting diet may help regenerate a diabetic pancreas
Fri, 24 Feb 2017 12:33:00 EST

"The pancreas can be triggered to regenerate itself through a type of fasting diet, say US researchers," BBC News reports.

Quote:
Research in mice found a low-calorie diet may help in cases of type 1 and type 2 diabetes.

The pancreas is an organ that uses specialised cells known as beta cells to produce the hormone insulin, which the body uses to break down sugars in the blood (glucose).

In type 1 diabetes the pancreas stops producing insulin. In type 2 diabetes either not enough insulin is produced or cells in the body fail to respond to insulin (insulin resistance).

Mice were fed for four days on a low-calorie, low-protein and low-carbohydrate but high-fat diet, receiving half their normal daily calorie intake on day one, followed by three days of 10% of their normal calorie intake.

Researchers repeated this fast on three occasions, with 10 days of refeeding in between. They then examined the pancreas.

They found in mice modelled to have both type 1 and type 2 diabetes, insulin production was restored, insulin resistance was reduced, and beta cells could be regenerated. Early lab study involving human cell samples showed similar potential.

These are promising results, but further studies are needed to validate these findings in humans.

If you have either type 1 or type 2 diabetes, you shouldn't attempt a fasting diet without first seeking medical advice. A sudden change in your calorie intake could have unpredictable effects and lead to complications.


The Newcastle people got at least two out of three in their longer but less stringent 800 calorie a day, 8 week program, reduced insulin resistance and normalization of insulin production. Beta cell regeneration? We can't assume that it occurred, but I don't think we can assume that it didn't, either. There seems to be a repeating theme of improvements in stem cell pools with fasting.

Something I wonder about. The reversal of diabetes with gastric bypass often comes with the complication of hypoglycemia. If these people just gain the weight back, maybe the hypoglycemia would resolve--which sort of begs the question of whether the tendency to hypoglycemia at a lower body weight was what prompted the "overeating" and development of type II in the first place. The idea of a sort of pre-prediabetes that involves a tendency to hypoglycemia is an old one;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...s00407-0017.pdf

Quote:
FUNCTIONAL HYPOGLYCEMIA,
THE LINK BETWEEN OBESITY AND DIABETES


The authors of this study warn that a 3 hour glucose tolerance test is not long enough. I've seen various low carb doctors suggest that less than 5 hours is insufficient, maybe this is their source (besides their own clinical experience).

Out of 238 obese subjects, 60 percent gave a "normal" glucose tolerance to the 3 hour mark. But 42.5 percent of the subjects had a normal glucose tolerance at 3 hours, but a hypoglycemic response at 4 hours.

Quote:
Thirty-five obese patients with functional hypoglycemia
treated by diet alone were observed by annual
repetition of the testing procedure for four years. Thirteen
patients who continuously lost weight had a progressive
improvement of the glucose tolerance test; in
eight of these, the glucose tolerance test returned to
normal. However, the 18 obese subjects who failed to
lose weight or gained further weight demonstrated
gradual further deterioration in carbohydrate tolerance.
These included three patients who became overt diabetics.
Four patients were lost for follow-up.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Wed, Sep-13-17, 05:49
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,817
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 43%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
...And the Very Simplest and Free measures of Insulin Sensitivity is a Waist to Height ratio less than .5. Dr Naiman discusses his measures in his video.
http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/2...8gxxvi5xklrzr2c

I'm using this one for long term monitoring. Simple and Cheap, like fasting. Finally, after a dozen years of malnutrition and now with a waist to height radio of less than .5 I can finally get back and do fun stuff. A number from a lab can only help iluminate what I already know from experiencing the change.

Cut the GPS, Paddle out and catcha wave!

Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Wed, Sep-13-17, 07:05
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,390
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Thud's posts are the reason I wish this forum had "Love" buttons.
What a sensible answer, gorgeous photo and zen philosophy on life..."Cut the GPS, Paddle out and catcha wave!"
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Wed, Sep-13-17, 07:28
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 4,142
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
Default

Here's my problem with the waist to height ratio. I am 1.5" shorter than I used to be plus I have excess skin in the area of my waist due to weight loss. In other words the changes my body has undergone as I have aged skew my results in the less favorable direction. I still look OK by this metric but just barely. Presently I am looking at what I eat, realizing that I could hardly do better in that department (sure I could tweak this or that but why bother?), so, like Thud, I would rather just paddle out and catch a wave, figuratively speaking.

Jean
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:56.


Copyright © 2000-2018 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.