Today I had my annual gyno check up. While discussing my dosage of HRT, I mentioned that I sometimes ate soy. He told me that soy contains estrogens and no matter what type of estrogens they are, the body still recognizes them as estrogen.

In his words "soy is a dangerous, dangerous product. STAY AWAY FROM IT!" He said that the estrogens in soy are not regulated and they can vary in batch to batch as well as product to product. He said that some products contain more than anyone could possible eat in a day's time.

He also told me that this year alone, he has seen 5 cases of endrometrial cancer directly related to soy. He said the women all felt that soy was healthy for them. It is especially harmful to take estrogen alone (without the progesterin) if you have not had a hysterectomy. He also said that he treats numerous cases of infertility that are directly related to soy.

I felt I should tell you this because on this board there has lately been a clear message that soy is a better source of protein than whey. He says that message is coming from the soy producers and that we should avoid soy because if we take it, we are asking for major problems down the line.

Carol

For me, I will stick to the whey protein!

Great! This is not the sort of news I needed to hear today! I have been drinking Soy Protein shakes for a few weeks now as I thought it was the best one for women and low carbing.

Somebody please tell me that Dr is misinformed.

Akiwican

The danger is not in soy but in HRT!! Harmone replacement therapy causes cancer and a host of other things. Read the caution insert, it's in there!

I am 50, menopaused, and taking NO DRUGS and never will!
I use progesterone cream, herbs, vitamins, minerals and have no symptoms at all. (I did have symptoms briefly but no more!)

Knowledge is power. Educate yourself on this. Check out www.mercola.com, www.askdrhelen.com, www.iknowthecase.com, www.lifestyleforhealth.com, www.silvercreeklabs.com and others. It may save your life!


Just say NO to drugs....even perscription drugs! Drugs don't cure anything, they just stop some symptoms and cause more.

Sailing through menopause on what God gave me.....naturally!

Taken from supplementwatch.com (an unaffiliated supplement review forum)

The term "soy" is used to refer to many products derived from the soybean. In terms of health and wellness, the two most important dietary supplements derived from soybeans are isolated/concentrated soy proteins and soy extracts which contain a high amount of compounds called isoflavones. The isoflavones have been associated with a wide variety of beneficial health effects including protection from cancer and osteoporosis to reduction in hot flashes and other symptoms of menopause. Soy protein, which may or may not contain a high level of isoflavones (depending on how it is processed) has been associated with a reduction in serum cholesterol and triglyceride levels and may protect against the development of coronary heart disease.

Depending on the method of processing, many soy foods contain a relatively high content of chemical compounds called isoflavones, which possess weak estrogen-like effects. Under conditions of high estrogen exposure, which may promote certain cancers, the isoflavone compounds tend to block the adverse effects of estrogen and may prevent growth of cancer cells. Under conditions of low estrogen exposure, such as during menopause, the isoflavones tend to act as weak estrogens, which may be just enough to help alleviate some of the symptoms associated with menopause, such as hot flashes, headaches and mood swings.

Consumption of soy foods and soy proteins has been associated with beneficial health effects for heart disease, osteoporosis, cancer and menopausal symptoms

Isoflavones
Soy is the richest dietary source of isoflavones. Typical soyfoods like tofu might provide 1-4 mg/g or about 40-100 mg of isoflavones per ounce. Soymilk provides about 100-150 mg of isoflavones per 8-ounce glass. The isoflavones function as phytoestrogens in the body, where they possess weak estrogen-like effects. The two primary isoflavones found in soy are daidzein and genistein, both of which have been associated with the health benefits mentioned above. The chemical structure of isoflavones is similar enough to that of estrogen so that they can bind to the estrogen receptor on cells, yet different enough so that they only perform very weak estrogen effects. For the different soy-based protein powders on the market, the isoflavone content can vary significantly, from almost zero for those products extracted using alcohol, to certified levels of 2-5 mg per gram of protein. In many Asian countries, where the incidence of heart disease, cancer and menopausal symptoms is low, the daily isoflavone intake is estimated at 25-50 mg per day- in contrast, the average Western intake is less than 5 mg per day.

Heart Protection
Results from a number of studies show the cholesterol-lowering benefits of including soy protein in the diet. Drops in total cholesterol, LDL and triglycerides, with no lowering of HDL (good) cholesterol levels, has been shown with soy protein intakes of 25-50 grams per day, typically taken in 2-4 divided doses throughout the day. Such intakes have also been shown to reduce the susceptibility of the LDL particles to become oxidized, which is thought to be a crucial step that promotes cholesterol buildup on artery walls.

Cancer Risk
Epidemiological studies have suggested that Asian diets may provide protection from several cancers, including those of the breast, prostate gland and colon. As mentioned above, the action of isoflavones as weak estrogens allows them to bind to estrogen receptors and block some of the detrimental effects of estrogen – such as promotion of cancer cell growth. Tamoxifen, a prescription drug for treating breast cancer, is though to act as an anti-estrogen by binding to the estrogen receptor and "blocking" the growth-promoting effects of estrogen in cancer cells. Women using tamoxifen have a lower incidence of breast cancer and a 30-40% reduction in breast cancer cell growth rate. The isoflavones in soy are chemically similar to tamoxiphen and, therefore, may also reduce the risk of hormone-dependent cancers via the same "estrogen-blocking" mechanism

Bone Health
Soy protein consumption has been shown to reduce bone loss and slow calcium loss in an animal model of osteoporosis, suggesting a possible beneficial role in preventing osteoporosis in humans. A diet high in soy protein has been shown to improve bone density after six months. In addition, soybeans contain a relatively high calcium content, a large portion of which may be retained in soy protein powders. It is also interesting to note that soy protein seems to cause less loss of calcium from the body compared to other dietary sources of protein, which may promote calcium loss and bone breakdown at high levels. Ipriflavone, a synthetic isoflavone drug prescribed in Europe, is metabolized in the body into daidzein, and has potent effects on reducing bone resorption in postmenopausal women.

Dietary consumption of soy-based protein concentrate or soy isolate is not associated with any significant side effects aside from the mild gastrointestinal issues (bloating, flatulence) associated with any high protein diet. High dose intake of concentrated isoflavone extracts are probably safe at levels up to at least 200 mg per day (the estimated amount contained in the average Japanese diet). Since the long term effects of isolated isoflavone supplements is unknown and the potential for pro-estrogenic effects may exist for mega-dose isoflavone consumption, it is prudent to keep total isoflavone intake close to those levels found in dietary amounts.

As a high quality protein source, soy-based protein powders provide an excellent amino acid profile along with the added health benefits for heart health, cancer protection, bone maintenance and, in postmenopausal women, relief from menopausal symptoms

For those women who cannot or choose not to select hormone replacement therapy following menopause, isoflavone supplements may provide an effective alternative to treating some of the symptoms associated with menopause, including hot flashes, night sweats, headaches, vaginal dryness and mood swings.

Dosage:
As a protein supplement – as needed. (Typical protein recommendations are 1-2 grams of protein per kg of body weight).
For heart health, 25-50 grams of soy protein isolate per day is effective in reducing cholesterol and triglyceride levels.
For menopausal symptoms, 25-50 mg of isoflavones per day is effective in alleviating some of the symptoms associated with menopause (e.g. hot flashes). Do not exceed more than 200 mg per day.


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From wholehealthmd.com I obtained basically the same review with this warning:

Because of their estrogenlike effects, pregnant or nursing women should not take soy isoflavone supplements. (Soy-rich foods pose no such problems, however.)

Further research found this:

Breast Cancer
Concerning soy’s possible role in breast cancer prevention, the picture remains a little murky at present.

On the one hand, several studies have shown that populations with a high soy intake, such as those in Japan and China, have a relatively low incidence of breast cancer. And other research suggests that soy may have cancer-fighting effects, inhibiting the growth of breast cancer cells.

On the other hand, other studies suggest that soy sometimes causes breast tissue to proliferate, a possible harbinger of cancer.

Soy’s effects on the breast may also differ at different times in a woman’s life. Dr. W. Mark Cline, associate professor at Wake Forest University, has observed, “It’s quite likely that exposure to soy early in life will turn out to be more important than exposure later in life.” This may help explain why Asians, who begin eating soy at a very young age, have lower rates of certain cancers.

Women's health specialist Dr. Tori Hudson does not regard the conflicting soy findings as a cause for concern. “I don’t think soy is a health risk for anybody,” she says. “The key is that soy is a weak estrogen mimicker, with only 1/400 to 1/1000 the potency of natural estrogen. I still advise soy for women of all ages, including breast cancer patients to treat menopausal symptoms.”

Dr. Hudson believes adding soy to the diet offers women a way of reducing the amount of estrogen they need to relieve symptoms of menopause. In some cases, she says, “A woman can take a half dose of estrogen replacement and fill the gap with soy.”

You can read more of this article here



The message is a valid one, and it is coming from independant studies and research. Soy is an equal and sometimes better source of protein, depending on your needs and requirements. No one should ever blindly follow recommendations, especially when their health is involved. Just as we should be careful when making blanket statements.

I understand your concerns, Carol, and I know that when faced with information from someone in a position of authority, such as your doctor, it can be easy to accept statements as fact w/o having all the information. There are many members here, like Lesley, who will read this and, for lack of a better word "freak out" unecessarily. If soy were dangerous to everyone, as your doctor is saying, there would be facts / studies/ research and it would be all over the 6 o'clock news.

This isn't that far from dieticians telling us that "LC is dangerous for you, Stay away from it".

Nat

Aki, no matter what the bottom line is, I doubt that eating soy for just a few weeks would cause any serious health problems, right? Why don't you switch to whey drinks until we get it all straight?

If any group of people can get to the bottom of this, this group can!

The thing that concerns me about this doctors statements are things like: "..... he treats numerous cases of infertility that are directly related to soy." and "...has seen 5 cases of endrometrial cancer directly related to soy." How can any doctor know with such certainty that any one factor causes such diseases?!? Something just doesn't sound right.....

HRT is a matter of personal choice, but I feel that all I've read says that it is improtant. The estrogen will cause cancer if taken alone if you have not had a hysterectomy. If you have had the hysterectomy, all you need is the estrogen.

I am 58, way past menopause, and I feel great and still look much younger than my actual age. I have watched my sister age terribly. She thinks that she doesn't need HRT, but she now suffers from osteoporosis along with a host of other medical problems that are age related.

The first doctor that told me to avoid soy had just learned about its bad effects at a seminar at Sloan Kettering--a very prestigous cancer center in NYC. This is the second doctor to warn me. Of course the osteopathic doctor that I see thinks soy is just fine because it's not a true estrogen, but a phyto estrogen. However today the doctor told me that your body recognizes all types of estrogen as estrogen.

For my own peace of mind and safety, I will avoid the soy and continue the HRT.

Carol

Teri, what I think the doctor was saying was that in these 5 particular cases, the women were all using large amounts of soy and they all had the cancer. I'm sure he sees more than 5 cases of endometrial cancer in a year, but if you see a concentrated pattern in young women who are all doing the same thing, you may make the connection. Especially if this percentage is high among the users of soy and you have done the research and have seen the connection other places (as Sloan Kettering)

I know we all want to believe what we want to believe. I also see alot of "parroting" of opinions. We must learn to be objective and sort out the truths for ourselves. Non of us are of the type that we believe all we read or we wouldn't be on this woe in the first place. But when I read that something can be this harmful, I tend to be cautious. As for the woe, how can something like eating meats and all those fresh veggies be dangerous?

I realize that my statements about soy are contrary to the thoughts of most of the "experts" on this board, but I will avoid it.

I'll agree with you on the parroting, Carol.

I will, however, take exception to labeling anyone here a generic "expert". We are all amateurs, we are all here to improve our health and to help others do the same; everyone spending their time here is volunteering that time.

Nat

Nat, I was not trying to slam you in any way. You have been so very helpful to me and I appreciate it more than you can imagine.

I also realize that this is a non profit board and everyone here volunteers their time to help others. But I do think that some things work for one and not another, therefore I agree with you about blanket statements.

I am not telling you or anyone else that they should not use soy products. I am simply trying to warn you of the possible bad side effects and saying that I will avoid it from here on out. I will probably still use tofu occasionally because I've read that being in a natural state, tofu is not as dangerous as the altered soy in the protein drinks and the bars.

Please, lets not start a fight over this.

Carol

Carol, a debate is not a fight. And if you read back over what I initially posted you'll see I agree with you. I reposed that again. Our choices are just that, ours. What is right for you may not be right for Lesley. What is right for Lesley may not be right for me. But it is important we have all the facts before we draw our conclusions.

I feel confident that there are sufficient facts/ links and opinions here, that people reading this, once we are gone, will be able to come to informed decisions that are right for them.

Nat

It's certainly a matter of choice.

The body always producing estrogen, even with hysterectomies. It's progesterone that drops to zero.

Read the insert. It's all in there.

I am just saying it is best to use God giving, bio-identical harmone replacement, not drugs.

Ok, I'm putting away my pulpit on this one.

Blessings!

My acupuncturist thinks that Americans eat too much tofu when substituting for meat products. He cautioned against eating too much soy products. But, he's macrobiotic, what does he know??? Just kidding...

Finally a doctor I can agree with!

I knew we'd see you in this thread, Bill

Nat

I think what we are missing here, that the doctor sees, is an increased number of pre-menopausal and menopausal women using soy to counteract the effects of aging. I even know women who are soley feeding their children soy products (milk, cheese, etc) because they read about all the health benefits.

I've read that the estrogens in soy are causing problems in children too. For instance, they have found that soy causes early maturing in little girls and can cause some major problems for little boys as well.

For me, since soy is not something I really need, I would rather err on the safe side and avoid it.

Carol