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  #533   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 07:57
serrelind serrelind is offline
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Plan: paleoish
Stats: 130/104/105 Female 5'1"
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theBear, I have a couple questions.. btw thanks so much for being patient with all these questions that we have.

From your posts it appears you cook most of your meat. How do you handle eating out with friends and relatives? If you're at a restaurant, do you make sure the meat dish you order is free of sugar? I admit when I ate higher amount of carbs, I did not worry about this aspect. I knew probaby some meats were seasoned with soysauce/sugar and what not, but felt I had room to absorb those extra sugars. But aiming for 0-5 carbs is not easy. Several days now, I'd wanted a nice juicy ribeye steak from this restaurant but was leary about what they put in it. Maybe I could ask, but do I trust them? LOL. There's been time when I abstain from ordering a diet coke because I can't tell the difference between diet vs regular soda, and it's easy to give someone regular soda when they ask for diet. So can you explain how you handle social eating situations? Also, in your 47 years of eating near zero carbs, have you ever gotten sidetracked and eaten something "bad"? If yes, how did you feel afterward?

Thanks!

Last edited by serrelind : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 08:04.
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  #534   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 07:59
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
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Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Please, let's have no more unsupported, open ended claims used in attack mode. Please give us a complete list of what you are referring to with the statement: 'Vegies are chock full of healthful nutrients'. We would really like to know about all those mystic substances you think are only found in vegetation, and must therefore be missing from an all-meat diet.

In a great many years of studying plants, I have only found medicines, defined as things which heal illnesses and disabilities, and things which change or expand consciousness, not 'nutrients'.


http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abs...ournalcode=ajcn

and

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/ful...ournalcode=ajcn

Both these studies sought to compare and contrast the lifespan of vegetarians vs. non-vegetarians. As both abstracts clearly show in this particular trial, there is no increase in lifespan for vegetarians.

However, like the Bear and everyone else, all I've read over the years are tons of articles preaching almost to an evangelical nature the efficacy of eating veggies. We've all see it, right? If a person has stalled, ear infection, constipated, headache, trouble sleeping, can't run fast, falls asleep watching television, sleeps to much, blurry vision, stomach ulcers, or whatever the ailment happens to be, the first thing out of everyone's mouth is "eat more veggies!" Why? Because, you need to "eat more veggies!" Why would eating more veggies thereby raising carbs and calories bring me out of a stall? It's simple, "you need to eat more veggies!" Why would eating more veggies cure my stomach ache? Again the usual evangelical answer, "Simple, it's because you just to need more veggies. All that phytochemical stuff is going to make you live longer!"

Whatever beneficial effects that will be manifested by these phytowhatevers, it doesn't appear that they alone will make you live any longer.
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  #535   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 08:13
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
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Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
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Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
I don't mean this to be a sweeping generalisation, but I've noticed that it tends to be the males here who are the veggie haters, and the females who seem to like them - and I've seen this tendency a fair bit IRL too. I don't claim that it is simply due to the 'hunter/male' and 'gatherer/female' divide that prevailed amongst our ancestors, but I do find it an interesting concept.


I've noticed this too.

Growing up, my mother loved veggies of all kinds. She had a very natural disliking for meats and rarely ate them, if ever. My sister readily embraced my mother's eating preferences. On the other hand, my father would never eat veggies or fruits. Of course, I take after my father in that regard.

I never like to bring anything personal into these threads, but I will this time. My mother passed away very early from ovarian cancer. I'm not sure if it were because of the very little animal products she ate, or the copious amounts of vegetation that she had eaten. My father who has drank, smoked, eat fatty meats, even white rice, but *never* eating any veggies or fruits of any kind is still healthy, slender, and very vibrant at 70.

Please don't infer that I'm suggesting veggies are the bane of my mother's health issues, but merely wish to point out that for every example of a person getting "sick" not eating veggies, we can equally point out another person getting "sick" eating veggies.
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  #536   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 08:40
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lynnp lynnp is offline
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Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
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I love the taste of veggies despite my mother making them taste nasty as a kid . I think that since I am a better cook (she needed recipes where I cook instinctively mostly), I have found ways to cook them that I like. I wish fruits and veggies weren't the triggers of addictive cycles in me, but they are. I find that with junk carbs like cakes (not home made) and candy and processed junk, I build it up in my head to be better than it is when I relent and eat it. It usually is far less satisfying than I build it up too be in my mind. That is the psychological side of my addiction. Fruits and veggies, on the other hand, I find to be great tasting, but I have trouble controlling my self and my hunger if I eat them. That will be the difficulty for me in maintenance for the rest of my life. I almost wish I couldn't stand the flavor. It seems it would make life much easier on me.
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  #537   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 09:24
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paulm paulm is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 215/185/190 Male 6'1"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I have not eaten ANY significant vegetables since I was 23 years of age, so any putative lack of something important or even useful, or nutritional insufficiencies- due to this path must be nonexistent by the simple and well agreed upon basic reality that all the cells in my body have been replaced seven or eight times during that period, and SURELY even to one so defensive as the complainer, this must be taken as showing that vegetation is either of no use to, or may well be bad for, a human's overall health to ingest in the mistaken idea it is proper food. A firmly held belief-system which runs contrary to observed facts does not make false things true, nor true things false.


After reading this entire thread, this statement really sums up his opinion of vege's nicely.
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  #538   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 09:38
MissSherry's Avatar
MissSherry MissSherry is offline
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Plan: M&E Maintenance <5carbs
Stats: 170/109.5/115 Female 5'1"-5'2" w/ shoes
BF:31.1%/21.3%/19%
Progress: 110%
Location: By the beach in Florida
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My best friend, a female, dispises veggies. She may be rare (the females that dislike veggies).
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  #539   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 09:51
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
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As far as cancer and diet is concerned, I think there is a connection. In fact, I know of at least one connection: Wheat. If you're intolerant of wheat your likelyhood of getting several forms of cancer is much higher. Some cancer's are due to viruses. Others... who knows?

There have been studies that link higher fruit and veggie consumption to less cancer but... in my mind I'd like to know if that was simply because the people eating more fruits and veggies were eating less grains and sugars?
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  #540   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 09:54
serrelind serrelind is offline
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Plan: paleoish
Stats: 130/104/105 Female 5'1"
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I have seen several females that have passed through this forum that totally loath veggies. But I do notice that females, for the most part, seem to enjoy their veggies more than the guys do.
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  #541   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 09:58
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
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Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
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Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serrelind
I have seen several females that have passed through this forum that totally loath veggies. But I do notice that females, for the most part, seem to enjoy their veggies more than the guys do.


Could it be that men just have better taste in food? LOL

*joke* of course...

Caveat: No one with heightened sensibilities should be nor feel offended in the least. Inside joke for Serre.
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  #542   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 12:55
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Congratulations, Bear!

This has just become the most read thread ever on the Paleolithic & Neanderthin Sub-Forum! With over 14,000 views... and rapidly growing!

It was already the longest… by far! And now has 542 posts!

And, this all happened in less than two weeks!

There must be something to what is being said here!

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 16:04.
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  #543   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 12:57
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29/31/25
Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Keto-adaptation on zero carbs should be complete in 3-4 weeks.

The truth about exercise is that muscles NEVER use carbs as fuel, only fat, so the process of 'burning carbs is only the process of converting them into fat, which puts a severe load on the body during exercise- eliminate the carbs and endurance skyrockets.

Rapid intense effort (anaerobic) uses ATP, which degrades with muscular contraction into ADP. ADP is reconverted into ATP by a mechanism fueled by fatty acids complexed with n-acetyl carnitine. No carbohydrate is involved. Aerobic activity is fueled the same way.


Hi Bear -

This hasn't really been my experience to tell the truth. I take tennis lessons and my coach pushes me really hard. What I found was, on very low carb (high fat) I have lots of endurance energy, but next to nothing to do lots of sprinting. Any 'fast' energy I had was used up in the first sprint and after that it was impossible to do any more. It wasn't low blood sugar either, as I still had lots of energy, just not to sprint. In the end I found I had to add in some extra carbs before training to compensate - I felt much better with this, and could sprint again. It didn't take much (maybe 20-30g carbs in the form of fruit).

Swimming and endurance running are different - you don't have to sprint repeatedly. I could quite happily jog/swim for hours just on fat/protein.

I wish it could work for me as eating very low carb does the rest of the time.
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  #544   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 13:02
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LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
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Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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I've been reading this thread, and wondering about the truth behind certain nutrients, especially vitamin C, E and especially magnesium. Looking into nutritiondata.com (I hope that's a reliable source) I noticed that if I put in a whole day's worth of just eating meat/fat, my numbers came out TERRIBLE for these 3 nutrients. I wonder why a pure carnivore would not need higher levels of these - especially something like magnesium which is very important for all kinds of things. Being a woman I take magnesium for TOM cramps and backache (which I haven't had this time round doing low-carb + Mg).
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  #545   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 15:29
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Bobi-p Bobi-p is offline
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Plan: VLC
Stats: 240/145/150 Female 69 inches
BF: 21%, HT: 69"
Progress: 106%
Location: Southern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissSherry
My best friend, a female, dispises veggies. She may be rare (the females that dislike veggies).


I'm a female and much prefer meat, fish, eggs, butter, cheese and cream to veggies. I eat them if I can't ignore them, like if I'm at a dinner party, and the hostess has tried a "special recipe" with different spices! I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But I do notice that usually within 20-30 minutes after eating such things as broccoli, or salads I have to take a very quick bathroom break!
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  #546   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 16:13
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mae_west mae_west is offline
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Plan: keto/paleo with IF 18/6
Stats: 215.0/198.6/175 Female 68
BF:yes
Progress: 41%
Location: Kamloops, B.C. Canada
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I do like some vegetables, but mostly they are what could be considered "sweet" (?) like baby carrots or spagetti squash (yet I do not like yams or the so-called sweet potatoe...hmmmmm).

I like cauliflower steamed with cheese melted on, or made into that faux potatoe filling with sour cream, green onion, bacon and cheese. I do like asparagus with butter and lemon, but only when it is just in season and the stalks are thin and tender.

I used to buy the spring mix ( lots of leafy green) but only to get the oak leaf lettuce, which tastes nutty. The stuff I have been getting lately tastes quite bitter to me, so I have stopped buying it. And no need now that I am on meat and egg fast.
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  #547   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 16:33
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
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Location: Alberta
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Loops, you'd get more nutrients if you gnawed on the bones & used them in stew. The problem with modern people is that they do not consume most of and use the entire animal, just a few select bits.
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  #548   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 16:56
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ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Plan: My Own
Stats: 280/118/117.5 Female 5ft 5.25 in
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOOPS
Hi Bear -

This hasn't really been my experience to tell the truth. I take tennis lessons and my coach pushes me really hard. What I found was, on very low carb (high fat) I have lots of endurance energy, but next to nothing to do lots of sprinting. Any 'fast' energy I had was used up in the first sprint and after that it was impossible to do any more. It wasn't low blood sugar either, as I still had lots of energy, just not to sprint. In the end I found I had to add in some extra carbs before training to compensate - I felt much better with this, and could sprint again. It didn't take much (maybe 20-30g carbs in the form of fruit).

Swimming and endurance running are different - you don't have to sprint repeatedly. I could quite happily jog/swim for hours just on fat/protein.

I wish it could work for me as eating very low carb does the rest of the time.


Our muscles have fast and slow twitch fibers. Fast twitch fibers allow for sudden bursts of activity, such as sprinting, because they split ATP faster. They give us speed. Slow twitch fibers give us endurance and split ATP slower, like the names imply. Carbohydrate is important for speed, because it better fuels those particular muscle fibers. Carbohydrate replenishes glycogen which increases fuel availability to the fast twitch fibers.

http://www.indoorclimbing.com/muscles.html

This is why it is often said that sprinting, or lifting weights, or other "intense short burts" of activity tax sugar for energy, whereas slower endurance activities like walking burn fat better.

I have a tendency to hypoglycemia. I notice I become hypoglycemic very easily if I do a lot of upper body lifting, for example, much much more easily than if I walked for hours and hours. Walking all day will never give me a hypo. On the other hand, walking with a sack of books or heavy groceries? Almost always will.

At work (I am a cashier part time), if I lift too many jugs, I start to "shake" because this kind of activity uses a huge amount of sugar relative to fat. I come home at the end of the day and I am almost always shaking and low blood sugar. I am also often bloated at the end of my workday, which, I think has something to do with the hypoglycemia-inducing conditions (not sure what, but it has to be related... perhaps the constant raising of adrenal hormones is responsible?).
The absolute worst is when I have been sleep deprived for a few days, and then have work the next morning. The combination of all the lifting plus the metabolic state of sleep deprivation means my body just cannot possibly make enough sugar or energy to do what is demanded of it. In fact, I have taken to always having a liter of caffiene with me just so I have a way to keep my sugar level up, just so I can *function* at work. (God bless you diet pepsi, you wonder drug of sugar energy... a couple of swigs and I am like a whirlwhind for a short while).
Of course this results in horrible consequences of worse lethargy later on in th evening (and sometimes reaaally weird blood sugar/energy problems).

Walking, on the other hand, like I said it is far less likely to make me severely hypo (to the point where I shake, as in, a sudden dip). In fact, walking improves my fat metabolism tremendously, and, at the end of a long day of walking I can tell I am much more ketogenic. I am also almost always likely to lose water. Lifting a few heavy things is enough to make me "shaky" but if I walk from my house to the end of my city, not nearly as likely and my body burns fat more.

Endurance is all about fat and pro. Sudden, short, relatively intense activity is all about carbs. Moderate cardio, walking, etc = fats. Weight lifting = glycogen and carbs.

BTW the types of activity you do also determine how well your body uses certain fuels, and how capable you are of the activity. If you run, walk, or stand often you strengthen and increase the amount of slow twitch fibers, which means you gain endurance in those activities and can use fat for energy better. If you do a lot of lifting, sprinting, or other activities you improve your capacity to do these things, plus you increase how many carbs you can eat and tolerate (because you are constantly sucking your sugar low and using up glycogen that way).

That's why weight lifting has such a tremendous benefit for people with insulin resistance. It's the best way to improve how fast we clear out glucose and raises your need for sugar.

Last edited by ItsTheWooo : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 17:02.
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  #549   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 18:45
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
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Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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Hmm. But I thought thebear was saying how we really didn't need carbs at all, even for fast twitch muscle stuff. Then again I guess he doesn't play tennis.

What is interesting is I can actually make enough glucose it would seem to sprint say once every couple of minutes, but no more than that (without carbs).

It's not for lack of time either - I've been at this WOL for a fair few months (and before that too) - very low carb.
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  #550   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 20:29
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Ayustar Ayustar is offline
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Plan: Human Experimentation
Stats: 170/100/105 Female 4'10
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Location: London, Ontario, Canada
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Well, I should propose an idea here....

Why don't we take some of us here who are already on the meat and egg fast or have been on it and have them do it for a month, very strict.

Then have someone who eats a more varied low carb diet and have them go on meat and egg and see what happens. I am game. I do the meat and egg fast almost exclusively, but sometimes I break and have vegetables and nuts, I try to stay away from peanuts but they are the devil, that is beside the point though.

What do you guys think? Do it for a month or so, very strict, no dairy other than butter? Whatever fats you like, mayo included?
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  #551   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 20:41
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Gstout Gstout is offline
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Plan: Steak & Beer
Stats: 212/193/165 Male 69 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serrelind
I have seen several females that have passed through this forum that totally loath veggies. But I do notice that females, for the most part, seem to enjoy their veggies more than the guys do.



Agreed, but don't you think thats a prime illustration of 'programming'?? Girls are 'trained' to be much social and if the 'gospel' is to eat veggies, then most of them will. Like or dislike really doesn't play into it, they're just being social and following the 'rules.' Nice girls.
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  #552   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 20:49
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Gstout Gstout is offline
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Plan: Steak & Beer
Stats: 212/193/165 Male 69 inches
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Progress: 40%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayustar
Well, I should propose an idea here....

Why don't we take some of us here who are already on the meat and egg fast or have been on it and have them do it for a month, very strict.

Then have someone who eats a more varied low carb diet and have them go on meat and egg and see what happens. I am game. I do the meat and egg fast almost exclusively, but sometimes I break and have vegetables and nuts, I try to stay away from peanuts but they are the devil, that is beside the point though.

What do you guys think? Do it for a month or so, very strict, no dairy other than butter? Whatever fats you like, mayo included?



I've got a jump then, I started 'very strict' less than 5 carbs/day last Saturday. I've noticed that I'm nuking my bacon less and less and less. I'll get to see the results in the morning - wish me luck. obtw, I completed 2 weeks of Atkins Induction just before I started this 5 a day thing. FWIW: I completed 72 miles of walking/jogging this week and averaged 1503 cals/day: 70% fat, 29% protein, 1% carb according to fitday. Also fitday says I burned an average of 3357 cals/day. I've averaged about 85 oz of water per day. I also started taking 1x 250mg L-Carnitine tab/day last Wednesday. If the fitday calculations are correct, I should have lost 3.6 lbs by tomorrow's weigh-in....
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  #553   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 20:52
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Gstout Gstout is offline
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Plan: Steak & Beer
Stats: 212/193/165 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: SouthEast USA
Default TheBear what page was your IceCream recipe on?

TheBear what page was your IceCream recipe on? I hate to search through this again. Did anyone tab it???
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  #554   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 21:01
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Plan: My Own
Stats: 280/118/117.5 Female 5ft 5.25 in
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gstout
Agreed, but don't you think thats a prime illustration of 'programming'?? Girls are 'trained' to be much social and if the 'gospel' is to eat veggies, then most of them will. Like or dislike really doesn't play into it, they're just being social and following the 'rules.' Nice girls.


It has nothing to do with socialization. Veggies just taste good to me. The bitterness is not anymore overpowering or unpleasant than other pleasantly bitter foods like chocolate or good coffee with cream. Because I eat a natural diet I am not desensitized to taste; the subtle flavors and sweetness of veggies are very perceptable. For example, the "veggie fruits" like peppers, squashes, and tomatoes all have very rich vivid sweetness to me; I regard them the way a regular-diet person might regard high sugar fruit (as "sweet but not too sweet"). Even non-fruit veggies have very perceptable sweet tastes to me. For example, carrots and cabbage tastes very sweet, as does iceberg lettuce and peas.

I propose those who do not like veggies fall into two categories:
1) Very sensitive to bitter tastes/fibrous textures
2) Very desensitized to sweet tastes/smooth textures.

The reason most people don't like veggies is because they belong to group 2. They eat so many predigested starches, cookies and sodas that it takes a heaping spoonful of refined white stuff for their brains and tongues to register sweet. As a result, veggies taste bland or overly bitter (sweet taste being overactive means bitter taste of veggies registers relatively abnormally high).
Furthermore, because they eat so many "soft processed foods", the course and "real" texture of earthy food is unappealing to them. Processed food is over cooked, over processed, milled, cut really small, etc. They aren't used to really "eating their food" so the appearance and texture of a veggie puts them off.

Far less common is group 1... those who just by genetics have an abnormally high concentration of bitter taste bud receptors relative to sweet, or, are very tactile-sensitive and adverse to roughage in meals.

Perhaps there could be a biologically coded gender difference. Supposedly men prefer to eat the same things over and over. It is also conclusively proven females perceive sensations such as pain more vividly than men due to more nerve endings.
It might be possible women, as a gender, relatively perceive "more flavor" in veggies because our nervous system can better detect the subtle flavors and sweet taste that men cannot perceive. This also might be why men prefer to eat the same things over and over, and generally speaking, do not tend to be such pleasure eaters (I do notice women are more likely to eat for pleasure than men, who seem to just eat the same thing over and over without caring). It also might account for the reason women tend to favor sweet foods over meat foods; foods that are sweet typically have more flavors and sensations going on. Meat on the other hand does not and is much more "basic" (I believe it is called "umami taste"?). Nothing has a more basic flavor than plain protein. Lack of taste stimulation is probably a big reason the LC diet is so effective to control apetite (psychologically and physiologically).

Although, I love both veggies and meat. The one thing I can say I really do not care for are heavy, gummy starches like bagels and potatoes. I was born with a caveman's palate - meat , veggies. I liked sugar, of course, but I wasn't obsessed.
I loathed being forced to eat starches, hated sunday pasta night, hated those stupid big round zitis, hated rice, and ESPECIALLY potatoes and bread. I ate these things only because they were common, because I was encouraged to, because my mom thought they were healthy, and later on because I was becoming obese and thought if I ate those it was better than eating more meat and fat (which I LOVED). As I became fatter and more addicted to carbs and junkfood, I developed a taste for starches. I favored starches in a heirarchy of their ability to carry the flavor of sauce and meat, meaning, the more granulated = the better. The first starch I loved was cous cous (lots of butter please). After coos coos was rice, followed by fine grades of pasta (angel hair was my fav), then larger grades. I could not, and still cannot tolerate disgusting potatoes unless they are deep fried somehow, and thus, chemically saturated with fat.

Even today, I marvel at how people go gaga over sacks of dough (bagels), potatoes, and bread (that isn't infused with garlic, butter, herbs, peanut butter, berries, or other actual flavorful things). Some people actually just really like starch. I don't get it. It's like bland, chewy, flavorless gum. Blech.

Last edited by ItsTheWooo : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 21:10.
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  #555   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 22:00
Paleoanth's Avatar
Paleoanth Paleoanth is offline
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Plan: Vegetarian Atkins
Stats: 165/145/125 Female 60 inches
BF:29/25.2/24
Progress: 50%
Location: Tennessee/Iowa
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I am not disputing or addressing any of the benefits of your dietary regime to your health or well being. Personally, I think if it works for you, then do it. The ONLY thing I am going to address is some of the comments I have snipped below. That is because I am a paleoanthroplogist and what you have written here does not, in any way, agree with morphological, physiological, anatomical or genetic data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
At the risk of being repetitious:

Archeological digs into paleolithic people's homesites show zero evidence of fruit or any type of food vegetation residues, like seed, stems or skin. So any grazing of such foods occurred opportunistically and was done where found.


This is not true. By the way are you referring to Upper, Middle or Lower Paleolithic? There were huge cultural changes between these. At any rate, there has been evidence that may push cereal and grains back 10,000 years in the human diet. I am not saying this is good or bad, just that they are finding things:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/26/9551
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/All%20letters.pdf

In Kalambo Falls, a site dated 200000 BP-they found nuts and seeds along with evidence of fire usage.



Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Our physiognomy is due to the development of speech, our mouths are only secondarily used to eat with- talking has preempted and ruled the size and shape of our mouths and oral cavities. The commonly heard and false contention that we have the organs and teeth of an omnivore are just crude vegetarian propaganda which is so wrong that a child without training should be able to demonstrate the fallacy of by comparing pictures.

Our intestinal structure and length is that of a carnivore- like a big cat, and nothing like an omnivore like the rat or pig.

Our teeth are pure carnivore, they have a continuous enamel coat, are quite sharp, erupt once and do not grow or get replaced just as is the norm for animal of insectivore lineage. They are utterly unlike the complex teeth of herbivores and omnivores- whose teeth grow throughout life.


While it is very true that speech has helped shape our brains, larynx position and even not being able to eat and breathe at the same time, our teeth are not at all like carnivores.

http://www.shsu.edu/~bio_mlt/Carnivor.html

We have spatulate incisors, small canines and low grinding molars. Nothing at all like carnivores who have small incisors, sharp long canines and often carnassial premolars. and I don't know what a "continuous enamel coat" means. However, the thickness of our enamel has shifted from thicker to thinner. A thicker enamel indicates a diet is or evolved from hard to chew foods that would wear down enamel-like nuts, seeds and grasses. THe earliest apes are like this as.

http://www.johnhawks.net/weblog/rev...s_enamel_2003.w
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icae...ngar/satalk.htm
http://comp.uark.edu/~pungar/ (this is just a cool microwear site)
http://people.umass.edu/dewar/resea...ster/index.html (micorwear from carnivores as a comparison)

Our intenstinal structure has a reduced cecum and is, indeed, evolutionarily adapted to digest meats. Our cecum reduced, partially, to free up calories that would have gone to a more specialized digestion to allow for bigger brain development. However, that did not mean that we gave up being dietary generalists in order to become pure carnivore. It does mean that we expanded our diets to include more high quality meat foods that were easier to digest. Gave us big brains. Very cool.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/vestiges/appendix.html
http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/i...g_the_brain.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
We really don't have any very 'close' relatives- a term needing definition, as the closest, the pongids or great apes (some of whom like the chimp are good hunters and eat large amounts of meat- mostly monkeys) separated out ~6 million years ago. Of the large genera primates, many are heavy meat eaters, some are widely omnivorous, a few rather short lived monkeys are herbivorous, like the proboscids, and some- like the tree shrew are totally insectivorous..


The gorillas are completely vegetarian, up to 90% of the chimpanzee diet is fruit and pith. However, there seems to be an increase in hunting with chimpanzees during certain months of the year-at least with one observer

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...cd=2&lr=lang_en
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_edpik/b_1.htm.

Again, I am not arguing your results, nor am I making a case for any type of diet. I am just trying to correct some errors I noted.

Last edited by Paleoanth : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 22:23.
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  #556   ^
Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 23:52
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
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Posts: 1,512
 
Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayustar
Well, I should propose an idea here....

Why don't we take some of us here who are already on the meat and egg fast or have been on it and have them do it for a month, very strict.....What do you guys think? Do it for a month or so, very strict, no dairy other than butter? Whatever fats you like, mayo included?


I'm up for this. It would be interesting to compare my results with others. I'm curious to see how much of a challenge it really will be staying close to zero carbs.
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  #557   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 00:26
Ayustar's Avatar
Ayustar Ayustar is offline
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Plan: Human Experimentation
Stats: 170/100/105 Female 4'10
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Progress: 108%
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
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Yay, when do we want to start? I am scared to weigh lol. I want to see what happens though. I don't know how many people want to try this. We should open a thread just for this? I don't know, what do you suggest? It would be an interesting study. It is easier to do it if someone else is doing it with you. I prefer meat over vegetables *mind you I LOVE veggies and fruit, well, I love ALL food..this is how I got this way in the first place haha* If we have a bunch of people doing this and logging results everyday then that would be awesome.
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  #558   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 00:54
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Muscle Metabolism: Aerobic vs. Anaerobic

Dynamic Chiropractic - March 20, 2000, Volume 18, Issue 07
by Thomas Griner, DC

Four different types of muscle fibers will be discussed here. However, only the aerobic slow-twitch fiber and the anaerobic fast-twitch fiber are found in human skeletal muscle. For the purpose of gaining additional insight provided by comparative study, the cardiac muscle fiber and aerobic fast-twitch fiber will also be discussed.

Aerobic means with oxygen. In body metabolism, it also means with mitochondria. The mitochondrial structure acts as a substrate to bring reactants together and catalyze reactions. The structure also helps control and neutralize the radicals, which also occur in oxidative reactions. The mitochondria also produce enzymes, which further catalyze the reactions so that they will occur at body temperature.

Three of the four fibers are aerobic, with the mitochondria in each being different from the other two. The aerobic fast-twitch fiber is really no longer a muscle, but a bag full of mitochondria with a few contractile fibers remaining. The mitochondria in this fiber are one-third the size of those in the aerobic slow-twitch fiber. These smaller mitochondria can only oxidize the components of glucose, not fatty acids or ketones as the larger mitochondria can.

The mitochondria in the cardiac muscle fibers is three times the size of the aerobic slow-twitch fiber (nine times the aerobic fast-twitch fiber) and has the added capability of oxidizing lactic acid back into pyruvic acid and pyruvate back into glucose. The only other organ which contains the largest mitochondria is the liver. The smallest mitochondria appear bright red in color like the myoglobeen, which accompanies it; the intermediate mitochondria are brownish red, and the largest mitochondria are purplish. The presence of large numbers of the largest mitochondria give the heart and liver tissues their purplish color.

The anaerobic muscle fiber contains mitochondrial fragments that produce the enzymes needed to reduce glucose to pyruvate and pyruvate to lactate. In photomicrographs of stained aerobic and anaerobic cells abutted against each other and with a capillary in the corridor between them, the mitochondria of the aerobic fibers are seen bunched near the capillary like moths around a flame, while the anaerobic fiber shows no such activity.

Comparison of aerobic and anaerobic fibers might lead to calling the aerobic ectomorphic and the anaerobic endomorphic. This is because everything other than muscle fibers is concentrated along the periphery of the aerobic fiber, but spread in the interior of the anaerobic fiber.

The mitochondria are naturally at the periphery of the aerobic fiber but are spread in the interior of the anaerobic fiber. The mitochondria are naturally at the periphery, because the oxygen they need can only come from outside the cell. The fatty acid stores are then placed near the mitochondria, because that is where they will be metabolized. The myoglobin needs to be near the periphery and the mitochondria.

Myoglobin has the same red color as hemoglobin and results in these aerobic fibers being referred to as red muscle fibers. The anaerobic fibers have no need for myoglobin since they have no mitochondria and as such are referred to as pale muscle fiber.

Aerobic fibers use large adenosine molecules as energy transporters, with AMP moving out to the mitochondria to be recharged to ATP, then lumbering back to the interior to activate calcium ion release. The mitochondria of the aerobic fibers must also serve the oxidative needs of the anaerobic fibers, so it is busy oxidizing pyruvate as well as fatty acids. (This is why the mix of the two different fibers does not vary much beyond 50/50, even though anaerobic fibers are three to six times larger than aerobic fibers.)

The fat molecule produces almost eight times the energy of a pyruvate molecule, but the mitochondria can metabolize pyruvate nine times faster than fat. In the anaerobic fibers, the large adenosine molecules are locked into the matrix of the sarcoplasmic reticular cisterns next to the calcium ion mechanisms the ATP must activate. Likewise, the glycogeneral stores are located next to the adenosine, which the glycolysis must recharge.

The mitochondrial fragments, which produce the enzymes to catalyze reactions, are also located here. Energy transport is handled by small fast creatine molecules, which can readily pass through the membranes to reach the mitochondria in the aerobic fibers. Just as the mitochondria will selectively metabolize pyruvate ahead of fat, it will also phosphorylate creatine and glucose molecules ahead of AMP.

When a runner reaches a speed of about eight and a half miles per hour, the respiratory quotient rises to one, which indicates no fat metabolism is happening. Speeds above 8.5 mph are produced only by the anaerobic fast-twitch fibers, which can contract three times faster than slow-twitch fibers (25 milliseconds versus 75 milliseconds). The fast-twitch fibers can produce a speed in excess of 25 miles per hour, which is attained in the 100 and 200-meter dashes.

It should also be clear that lower animals that don't have a 50/50 mix of aerobic slow-twitch and anaerobic fast-twitch fibers are in need of aerobic fast-twitch fibers (essentially bags of mitochondria) capable of oxidizing pyruvate from the anaerobic fibers.

The flight muscles of a bird are of necessity mostly all fast-twitch fibers. A photomicrograph shows that out of a sample of 30 fibers, 18 are anaerobic fast-twitch, with the anaerobic fibers being five to nine times larger than the aerobic fibers. If you have ever cut raw chicken or turkey breast, you will probably have noticed the tiny bright red dots located throughout the pale fibers.

The reverse situation exists in the cat soleus muscle, in that it is made up entirely of aerobic slow-twitch fibers. This allows the cat to move with incredibly smooth slow motion when in stealth mode. To provide the quick leap when pounce mode comes, the gastrocnemius is mostly fast-twitch fibers. A sample of 30 cat gastrocnemius fibers reveals seven aerobic slow-twitch fibers, 17 anaerobic fast-twitch fibers, and six aerobic fast-twitch fibers.

This heritage shows up in the human soleus being weighted slightly towards slow-twitch fibers and the human gastrocnemius being weighted slightly toward the fast-twitch, but still close to a 50/50 mix.

Glycolysis provides anaerobic energy by splitting glucose into pyruvate and hydrogen ions. These cannot be oxidized until they reach the mitochondria in the aerobic fibers. The concentration in the anaerobic fibers will rise until the hydrogen free radicals threaten to shut down the process, at which time enzymes trigger the combination of hydrogen with pyruvate to form lactate, which will level off at a concentration high enough to cause a gradient sufficient to drive the lactate into the bloodstream as fast as it is being produced.

This usually produces a 10:1 ratio in favor of lactate to pyruvate. Extremely fast activity can drive the lactate concentration high enough to shut down the process. The 10:1 ratio of lactate to pyruvate is a consequence of the slow clearing of venous blood from the fascicular arrangement of muscle fibers. The actual conversion ratio is one lactate molecule for each pyruvate molecule. The pyruvate travels across to the slow-twitch fiber to be oxidized to carbon dioxide and water. The carbon dioxide and water then become more concentrated, like the lactate waiting to be cleared from the cell.

Venous waste pickup is as important as arterial supply for muscle operation. If the venous drainage is choked down by hypertonic muscles undermining the rhythmic pumping, the arterial blood flow will divert through the shunts so that both supply and pickup will be compromised. The energy contained in the lactate is temporarily lost to the muscle cells when it is dumped into the bloodstream, but upon reaching the liver, four-fifths of the lactate is reconverted back to glucose and returned to the muscles.

When glucose enters the muscle cell, it is phosphorylated by the mitochondrial energy so that the glucose phosphate supplements the creatine phosphate in carrying anaerobic phosphate energy within the cell.

After a period of maximum exercise has depleted the oxygen and anaerobic energy stores of the muscles, only three minutes and two and a half liters of oxygen are required to recharge the creatine to creatine phosphate and AMP to ATP, and to reload the myoglobin with oxygen. However, it takes one hour and eight liters of oxygen for the liver to clear the accumulated lactate.

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/18/07/06.html
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  #559   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 02:02
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnp
I love the taste of veggies and pretty much all fruits...that is why I am so big. Once I eat even a little, I am hungry the rest of the day and nearly obsess about food. If I avoid them, I am not hungry and even forget to eat. It is weird, but it is my addiction. I LOVE FOOD! I love to cook, taste and serve it. I just have to avoid certain things (fruits and veggies) or I go into a carb tailspin and binge for months at a time. It is an ugly cycle, but that is how it is for me.


Boy can i relate to this Lynn!! I love veggies and fruits also, as well as every other food on the planet (thats how i got over 300 lbs!). BUT i am convinced i am a sugar and carb addict and have ruined my body to the point where i cant even handle any of it in small doses. Me, hubby and teenage son are all doing atkins. They seem to do whatever they want and the weight falls off them..they eat the protein bars and shakes OFTEN, they both drink tons of diet pop, my son eats the SF jello w/whip cream daily, and the LC yogurt like every other day. I just CANT do what they do! I have had to give the diet pop up (except for a SIP every once in awhile, I indulge in 1 protein bar a week and 1 shake a week, i won't eat the jellos and whip cream anymore either..and i never eat the full 3 cups of veggies that Atkins suggest..usually 1 cup a day, most days. It just seems like anything i eat that isnt meat, poultry, fish, cheese, cream or butter...either stalls my weight loss, or causes cravings or BOTH!!! And just FORGET cheating. I remember last time i did atkins (and i lost 81 lbs) anytime i would cheat it would set me off on a 3 day binge, or even a week binge! Not only that but if i managed to keep my cheat down to a DAY..i wouldnt lose a thing that week. THis time i am doing it CHEAT FREE because it just aint worth it. I cant afford week long binges. Part of me is feeling sorry for myself because i can't down 12 packs of diet cokes and eat sf jello every day...isnt that a riot???
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  #560   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 03:05
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayustar
Well, I should propose an idea here....

Why don't we take some of us here who are already on the meat and egg fast or have been on it and have them do it for a month, very strict.

Then have someone who eats a more varied low carb diet and have them go on meat and egg and see what happens. I am game. I do the meat and egg fast almost exclusively, but sometimes I break and have vegetables and nuts, I try to stay away from peanuts but they are the devil, that is beside the point though.

What do you guys think? Do it for a month or so, very strict, no dairy other than butter? Whatever fats you like, mayo included?


if you include small amounts of cheese i might consider it!! (im a cheeseaholic..even when not on LC..CHEESE is my FAVORITE food!) I have a hard time sticking the the 4 ozs of cheese or less per day that is on atkins induction..but i follow it because i want to lose this weight!! I can't imagine having NO cheese at all...that would suck...roflmao!
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