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  #61   ^
Old Sun, Sep-09-12, 22:59
Brinethery's Avatar
Brinethery Brinethery is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,387
 
Plan: 160g animal protein/day
Stats: 185/167/165 Female 5'10
BF:35
Progress: 90%
Location: Algona, WA, US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amelia-b
Well said, Were Bear.


Ditto. So eloquently put.

That's how I feel about people who are well-known and use ads to support what they're doing. Besides, shouldn't WE investigate the product and not blindly buy it "because Jimmy bought it" or "because Mark Sisson is using it" or whoever. I mean, if you can't find even one or two reliable sources outside of the endorser then it's probably a good idea to wait or not buy at all.

We have to use our noggins!
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  #62   ^
Old Sun, Sep-09-12, 23:13
traderjane traderjane is offline
New Member
Posts: 19
 
Plan: my own / paleo/primal
Stats: 145/120/120 Female 63
BF:
Progress:
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To get back to the original question, the only problem with fat is the calories. I know this sounds like a trite and silly statement but it really isn't. We all know that the problem with carbs has nothing to do with the calories but with the complex interplay of hormones, especially insulin. Protein also has hormonal effects, including effects on insulin, although it is different and not nearly as deleterious.

From everything I have read, good fats have no such effects. They don't prevent the body from burning fat. They don't blunt your brains satiety signals. They simply supply calories. Eating too much fat won't damage your metabolism or your heart. According to GaryTaubes and others, your body will simply use the extra calories. You'll do more, have more energy, raise your body temperature, strengthen your immune system or maybe just fidget more. The body has many ingenious ways of maintaining equilibrium when its not being poisoned.

However, if you want fat loss and not simply equilibrium, then the calories matter. Many people spontaneously lose weight with low carbs because of water loss and increased satiety. However, at some point, the body finds equilibrium and weight loss stops. This has to be true, otherwise it would be impossible to maintain weight on a very low carb diet. We KNOW we can maintain weight this way. So a decision has to be made. If you want to keep loosing fat, at some point, a deficit must be created and that means limiting some source of calories. If you can't (or don'w want to) limit carbs or protein further, then you have to limit fat.
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  #63   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-12, 01:15
Riolis's Avatar
Riolis Riolis is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 166
 
Plan: LCHF n Fasting
Stats: 303/199/154 Male 167 cm
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Land of flying cats
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillex
I'm not sure if you're equating high-fat with high-calorie, but I would just like to say that they are NOT the same thing.

I didn't equate high-fat to high calories. To be frank, I never counted calories, and I don't even believed in calories. Studies keep coming up that calories eaten is not the same with calories gotten and burnt. I was referring to people who worries about fat counting. Just eat enough that your body feel satiated, and no point to force feed yourself with fat just because of you want to archive some % of macronutrient or because someone says you need to eat x gram of fat/day.

As for protein, Dr Layman on Jimmy's podcast said you need to eat at least 40g/meal. here I'm still not sure what to make of it.

And man, you're lucky to have a trainer who believe in LC :/
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  #64   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-12, 10:22
Trillex's Avatar
Trillex Trillex is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 111
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 235/135/135 Female 5'4"
BF:BMI=23.2
Progress: 100%
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riolis
And man, you're lucky to have a trainer who believe in LC :/


Hi!

A bodybuilder buddy of mine, who is a certified personal trainer, is training me as a favor. There are a lot of bodybuilders in my family and social circles: my brothers, cousins, uncles, ex-boyfriends, childhood friends.

And although I've met, probably, hundreds of bodybuilders (as a result of supporting friends and family members when they compete)... I've NEVER met a bodybuilder whose "cutting" diet WASN'T low-carb. So I think there are actually a lot of low-carb-knowledgeable trainers out there. I'm not sure how many of these guys and gals eat very-low-carb as their primary diet but, in my experience, they stay current on the literature and research. Jeff Volek, one of the researchers/authors who wrote the book that I mentioned earlier (The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance), is a bodybuilder.

I think, actually, you probably can't throw a sweaty towel in a gym without it dripping onto a bodybuilder who eats semi-primal. Today's baseline bodybuilding diet appears to be: grass-fed meat, Greek yogurt, berries, raw or steamed veggies. But they also regularly eat sweet potatoes and brown rice, which I don't think are allowed on a paleo or primal diet. I hate to generalize, because every bodybuilder is so different... But when you talk with a lot of people, you notice some trends.

The 15-20g of protein per meal comes from my trainer, Reg, and from my brothers. Different bodybuilders have different approaches to managing protein -- it's like a religious ritual, very personal and faith-based. The idea, I'm told, is to use protein to "build" not to "feed." Like I said, it feels gimmicky to me, too, and I think Reg might have me doing this as a way to learn portion control. But I've been satisfied with my steady progress. And I trust him. I've watched him manipulate his body composition very precisely using his methods. And I don't have his level of expertise in this area, so I'm just doing what he tells me to do unless/until I have a compelling reason to stop. Also per my trainer's instructions, I take a supplement "stack" (of arginine, ornithine hci, ornithine okg, & lysine) first thing in the AM, on an empty stomach, to encourage protein synthesis (building), as opposed to catabolism (feeding).
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  #65   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-12, 11:59
Trillex's Avatar
Trillex Trillex is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 111
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 235/135/135 Female 5'4"
BF:BMI=23.2
Progress: 100%
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riolis
As for protein, Dr Layman on Jimmy's podcast said you need to eat at least 40g/meal. here I'm still not sure what to make of it.


One more thing...

I've just listened to this interview -- thanks for posting the link! I just want to point out, though, that this doctor is basing his per-meal protein prescription on 3 meals per day. My trainer has me eating 5-6 meals per day.

Also, when answering the first lady's question about avoiding gluconeogenesis, the doctor says that he doesn't think that it's necessary to achieve ketosis for health or weight optimization. So, his program has different goals than the program I'm on.
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  #66   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-12, 14:00
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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IMHO talking about percentages is very confusing. % of what? It's very fuzzy, makes no sense unless you have a specific calorie count in mind.

Phinney and Volek take a different approach. They have you calculate how much protein you should eat, in grams. Then you have a maximum # of carbs. Everything else is fat, either dietary or from your own fat stores (i.e. a calorie deficit).

They recommend 1.5g of protein per "reference weight" (your goal weight in kilograms).

For instance, if I wanted to weigh 140 lbs. I'd take 140 / 2.2 (kg per pound) and then multiply that by 1.5.

From there, 20-30g of net carbs is about right for me.

Everything else is fat... stored or dietary.
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  #67   ^
Old Thu, Jan-21-16, 16:17
robinchar robinchar is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 174/168/145 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress:
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I have the exact same question, so hopefully we will both get an answer. I am doing the exact opposite of you, I am not taking in much fat at all. I only cook my eggs in 1/2 tablespoon of butter, because the book says only enough fat as to not burn the eggs. I would love 2 tablespoons of Marie's chunky blue cheese dressing, but only use one as I am also not sure of how much I should actually be having. I don't think that is made clear in the book. I am not sure why that wasn't specified.
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  #68   ^
Old Fri, Jan-22-16, 17:42
robinchar robinchar is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 174/168/145 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress:
Default Confused

I am sorry, maybe I am dumb, but I don't understand how you know what is 70% fat calories. When I read the labels of fat I am consuming, it says the fat content in grams. For instance, I had 1T of Marie's chunky blue cheese dressing, the nutritional information said there were 6 grams of fat per serving of one tablespoon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinethery
Although I feel that Doctor Atkins has done a world of good for the low-carb community, I do wish he would've been more specific about how much fat a person should eat.

On the low-end, I would aim for at least 70% fat calories. As long as it's from "safe" saturated and unsaturated fats (animal fat, butter, olive oil, coconut oil, avocado, grapeseed oil, etc.) and not from "unsafe" fats like hydrogenated oils/lards, cottonseed, soybean, or corn oil, which are high in the pro-inflammatory omega-6 fats.

If you want your Atkins plan to be high-fat, a lot of us on the forum who go that route keep the fat calories between 70% to 90%. I believe Jimmy Moore has to go all the way up to 90% to stay in an optimal range of nutritional ketosis.

Read the entire article of part I. I would also read part II, but if you're going to read only one article, then part I definitely applies to you:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/...-low-carb-pt-i/
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/...low-carb-pt-ii/

Jimmy Moore's Nutritional Ketosis
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/...-day-1-30/14409
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/...day-31-60/14669
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/...day-61-90/15125

All about ketogenic diets
http://josepharcita.blogspot.com/20...to-ketosis.html

About how fat can be converted to glucose via the liver
http://blog.cholesterol-and-health....from-fatty.html
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  #69   ^
Old Fri, Jan-22-16, 18:15
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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If you are looking at the composition of your diet with fat and protein, then once you subtract the carbs, you want a %age of the calories to come from fat, and a %age from protein. It's usually written as 70% and 25%, with the 80 cals from 20 grams of carbs being the other 5%.

So. A gram of fat has 9 calories. A gram of protein has 4. 25% of 1600 cals (at the 20 grams of carbs level) is 400 calories, or 100 grams of protein.

What is left is 1120 calories/9 calories/gram of fat=about 125 grams of fat. Clearly, that allows you a whole lot more than 1/2 tbsp of butter for your eggs!

I don't do the macros, myself. I am pretty generous with fat, and moderate with protein, and count carbs to be very very stingy with them.

I'm not hungry, cravings are rarely an issue, and I'm losing.
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  #70   ^
Old Sat, Jan-23-16, 06:50
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,371
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robinchar
I have the exact same question, so hopefully we will both get an answer. I am doing the exact opposite of you, I am not taking in much fat at all. I only cook my eggs in 1/2 tablespoon of butter, because the book says only enough fat as to not burn the eggs. I would love 2 tablespoons of Marie's chunky blue cheese dressing, but only use one as I am also not sure of how much I should actually be having. I don't think that is made clear in the book. I am not sure why that wasn't specified.


What book do you have? (profile says none) NANY had an inset "Savor don't smother" with examples and the 2002 book lists the servings: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=236482

To get grams into %, calculate as Micki explained or use a tracker like MFP which has a nifty pie chart as the day goes on to check %.

HOWEVER...

Fixing a macro does NOT account for fat coming from your body, that amount is impossible to fix or estimate

This article helps explain that part with some good Sample Graphs: https://lowcarbrn.wordpress.com/201...-force-the-fat/

Last edited by JEY100 : Sat, Jan-23-16 at 08:57.
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  #71   ^
Old Sat, Jan-23-16, 09:04
robinchar robinchar is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 174/168/145 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress:
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Thanks ladies,
Micki made it very clear. Jey, I have the "Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution". Please bear with me as I have never in all the years I have dieted off and on counted carbs, fat, protein, the only thing I have ever counted is calories. This is all new to me as is this website, so I am not sure if I am even replying to you in the right place. Your information was very helpful, and as I read more on the subject, I am not sure that keeping track of all this is necessary. It look like just keeping the carbs low kind of makes the rest fall in line.
Again, thanks for your help.
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  #72   ^
Old Sat, Jan-23-16, 11:41
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,371
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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You replied in the right place. I started with the New Atkins 2010 book, and only jotted down the net carbs of food I ate on paper with pencil. Worked great! Only suggested the pie chart to make the % method clear...but not at all necessary.

The book you have (called DANDR here ) is summarized in sticky at top of this forum. ^^^ http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=236482
There are limits for cheese, cream, etc.then add butter on vegetables as needed to keep you satisfied.

Found a great new video "How to Start LCHF" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4D...eature=youtu.be

20-30 total carbs to start if want to lose weight, 4 palm size servings of protein (about 80 grams for a woman, 120 for a man) and only extra fat to satiety. Most fat will come from real food in your meals and your body.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Jan-24-16 at 05:53.
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  #73   ^
Old Sun, Jan-24-16, 14:01
robinchar robinchar is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 174/168/145 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress:
Default Thanks Jey

Jey,

You gave me a lot of good information in your last post. I never thought there would be so much to learn, I guess trying to change your whole mindset on the way to lose is going to take some time.

I joined Myfitnesspal and that shows the percentages of what you are eating. I don't know what my percentages should be, but I am not worrying about that. I am just worrying about staying under 20 grams of net carbs, and 4-5 grams of sugar. We will see what happens.
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  #74   ^
Old Mon, Jan-25-16, 05:20
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,371
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Here is how to Custom your MFP goals. The free version doesn't let you set by grams, only %, but this is close enough.
http://eatfatlosefatblog.com/how-to...ketogenic-diet/ you can rearrange the columns to have fiber next to total carbs (need to subtract), and sugar last column. (As in this link, #3)

And as shown in the graphs at LCRN, set the calories and a close % of protein to equal what you need in grams (about 80g is good for a woman with average activity) set the carbs with leeway for usual fiber intake, and the rest will be fat (but you won't be eating all that, eat to satiety)
Using MFP will be a pain to start, looking up foods (and checking that the entry is correct...go for the USDA data usually at top, and brand name labels are usually good too, watch out for member entered data.) But after the first time you enter, it will default to what you have used before..or you can even save it as a meal or recipe. And before entering a recipe, check if already in the MFP database, it often is.

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Jan-25-16 at 06:56.
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