Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low Carb Health & Technical Forums > Cholesterol, Heart Disease
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Mon, Mar-30-15, 14:15
Gaz88 Gaz88 is offline
New Member
Posts: 3
 
Plan: Primal
Stats: 157/157/150 Male 175
BF:
Progress:
Default Can atherosclerosis be reversed??

I was hoping I could get some responses to a debate I've been having with a colleague at work.

I happened to mention to a work mate, that my uncle who is 62 has found out that he has quite heavy atherosclerosis after rigorous test being carried out.. His reply was, "only a low fat vegan diet will help reverse that"... It left me wondering if he was right as I wasn't able to come back with studies or evidence to prove that a primal/paleo diet could help with someone who has heavy build up.

SO...Is there any science, facts or studies to prove that atherosclerosis can be reversed on a lchf diet

Gaz
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Mon, Mar-30-15, 14:22
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,189
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Well... that's what Dean Ornish and his followers would like you to believe. Truth is, that many people here have made huge improvements on their lipid profiles by following a low carb diet. Dr. Davis, cardiologist, has helped loads of people improve their heart scans. The book "Wheat Belly" goes into that. He's got a blog "Wheat Belly Blog" and he also has a web site program called "Track Your Plaque".

Gary Taubes, one of the best science writers on the planet, has some good books on the subject. Dr. Peter Attia is another. Dr. Feinman, Drs. Phinney and Volek.

Just a smattering of those folks investigating this topic and writing on it. Most of them have blogs and books. Look 'em up!

Oh yes, just remembered, we had a lady on here who reversed her heart disease. I forget exactly which type she had but her cardiologist was astonished.

Be forewarned: Vegan believers will never change their mind no matter what evidence is presented. It is more religion than science.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Tue, Mar-31-15, 06:34
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,317
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Nancy has pointed you to some good resources who define CVD as caused by inflammation, a result of high sugar and refined carb consumption. The consumption of both are usually lowered also if one eats a healthy, well-formulated vegan diet of real foods.

But your question reminded me of Dr. Kendrick's recent blog post...Do we even know what causes CVD? http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/0...-heart-disease/
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Tue, Mar-31-15, 09:07
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 11,051
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

I also think that, at least in some part of the population, a high carbohydrate, low fat diet can address insulin resistance to some degree. Even though fat doesn't by itself require much insulin, added to a carbohydrate load, it does increase the insulin required to handle that carbohydrate. Whether this works out might depend on the degree of insulin resistance--going low fat probably wouldn't work for a person whose own body insists on releasing excess fat into circulation, even in the face of a very high carbohydrate, low fat dietary load. Both low fat and low carbohydrate have the potential to address insulin resistance, how well they do so probably depends on individual metabolism.

http://www.drdach.com/Track_Your_Plaque.html

Quote:
How to Reverse Heart Disease with the Coronary Calcium Score


http://journals.lww.com/americanthe...oach_of.12.aspx

Quote:
Effect of a Combined Therapeutic Approach of Intensive Lipid Management, Omega-3 Fatty Acid Supplementation, and Increased Serum 25 (OH) Vitamin D on Coronary Calcium Scores in Asymptomatic Adults
Davis, William MD, FACC1*; Rockway, Susie PhD, CNS2; Kwasny, Mary ScD3

Abstract
The impact of intensive lipid management, omega-3 fatty acid, and vitamin D3 supplementation on atherosclerotic plaque was assessed through serial computed tomography coronary calcium scoring (CCS). Low-density lipoprotein cholesterol reduction with statin therapy has not been shown to reduce or slow progression of serial CCS in several recent studies, casting doubt on the usefulness of this approach for tracking atherosclerotic progression. In an open-label study, 45 male and female subjects with CCS of ≥ 50 without symptoms of heart disease were treated with statin therapy, niacin, and omega-3 fatty acid supplementation to achieve low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides ≤60 mg/dL; high-density lipoprotein ≥60 mg/dL; and vitamin D3 supplementation to achieve serum levels of ≥50 ng/mL 25(OH) vitamin D, in addition to diet advice. Lipid profiles of subjects were significantly changed as follows: total cholesterol −24%, low-density lipoprotein −41%; triglycerides −42%, high-density lipoprotein +19%, and mean serum 25(OH) vitamin D levels +83%. After a mean of 18 months, 20 subjects experienced decrease in CCS with mean change of −14.5% (range 0% to −64%); 22 subjects experienced no change or slow annual rate of CCS increase of +12% (range 1%-29%). Only 3 subjects experienced annual CCS progression exceeding 29% (44%-71%). Despite wide variation in response, substantial reduction of CCS was achieved in 44% of subjects and slowed plaque growth in 49% of the subjects applying a broad treatment program.


I got this from CarbSane's blog, where she reamed Dr. Davis for perceived inconsistencies--of which there weren't any, it's just that over the years, Dr. Davis refined his approach, becoming less saturated fat-phobic and more suspicious of oatmeal. At any rate, he's been making claims for plaque and heart disease reversal for quite a while now, and advocating a more and more low carbohydrate diet while continuing to make these claims.

Of course, like Dean Ornish's program, there were so many elements to his approach that it's impossible to pinpoint just what went right. But that's a proper criticism of any one element of the program, not of the program as a whole--better do them all. With Ornish's program, you might need to be a smoker, going in, so that you can quit.


http://carbsanity.blogspot.ca/2013/...at-bellies.html
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Tue, Mar-31-15, 12:32
Gaz88 Gaz88 is offline
New Member
Posts: 3
 
Plan: Primal
Stats: 157/157/150 Male 175
BF:
Progress:
Default

Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply.. I'll have a good look at all the links and websites that have been sent :-)
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Tue, Mar-31-15, 12:59
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,189
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

"Healthy" vegan diets, without all the refined carbs, are also typically a lot lower carb than the standard American diet (SAD). So even if Ornish did have some improvements, it could still be due to lowering carbs.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Fri, May-01-15, 10:12
DaveYYC DaveYYC is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: Fung Bailor Taube Eenfeld
Stats: 250/205/175 Male 75 in
BF:
Progress: 60%
Location: Canada
Default Linus Pauling - Vitamin C

A quote, "I think I know what the answer is... we can get almost complete control of cardiovascular disease, heart attacks and strokes by the proper use of this (vitamin C and lysine) therapy... even cure it.... Its almost miraculous..." - Linus Pauling (1992 Heart Disease Video)

In his retirement, Linus Pauling, the father of modern chemistry and a two time Nobel prize winner became interested in using vitamin C with the essential amino acid lysine to cure heart disease, which he patented.

His theory was laid out in the paper titled, "A Unified Theory of Human Cardiovascular Disease Leading the Way to the Abolition of this Disease as a Cause for Human Mortality".
http://orthomolecular.org/library/j...v07n01-p005.pdf

To summarize, Pauling states that cardiovascular disease is simply scurvy of the blood vessels. Mankind along with a few other mammals have lost the ability to manufacture ascorbate (vitamin C) in the liver, thus vitamin C must be obtained from outside sources. Adjusted for body weight species that make vitamin C make 10 grams / day.

Pauling states that vitamin C is used to make collagen, the bodies supporting structure that gives the blood vessels strenght and elastic properties. The body is smart and has a back up system available if ascorbate supplies are limited and collagen can't be manufactured. LDL cholesterol, specifically LP(a) will be used by the body to patch the weak artery. Pauling mentions in one of his video that he thinks that LP(a) was an adaption due to our bodies lacking the ability to make vitamin C.

When blood vessels become damaged lysine binding sites become exposed. The best repair solution is to manufacture collagen. If none is available then the body uses LP(a) cholesterol as a patch. The LP(a) cholesterol molecules have lysine receptors that allow them to bind or stick to the exposed lysine binding sites on the blood vessels. To make the patch stronger the body will calcify the patch.

Pauling claims that by using high doses of vitamin C with lysine damaged blood vessels can be repaired and possibly reversed. After Pauling's death the therapy has been revised to include vitamin K2 and vitamin (hormone) D3. Vitamin C and lysine are non toxic.

Link to the Pauling therapy protocol:
http://practicingmedicinewithoutali...xcerpt_chp7.pdf

Link to additional websites:
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/
http://www.paulingtherapy.com/index.html

Dr Pauling's Standford medical school lecture on vitamin C and cardiovascular disease. He discusses cardiovascular disease starting at 27 min but the entire lecture is worth listening to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bymKIPaTws

Dr Owen Fonorow (ND) - Direction of Vitamin C Foundation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP8J8xx4AD0

Living Proof Vitamin C Miracle Cure 60 Minutes Video 3 News. A little off topic as it deals with swine flu instead of CVD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTXSTGGRvKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2orjgvW2tY

Dr Thomas Levy: Vitamin C & The Great Supression. Dr Levy is the doctor MD (cardiologist / lawyer) that Alan Smith's family received vitamin C advice from in the Miracle Cure documentary linked above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1kD3BolXnE

I have been following the Pauling vitamin C protocol shortly after I was diagnosed with typeII diabetes in Dec 2013. I stumbled across the vitamin C info while researching T2D. I didn't have any diagnosed heart issues other than fatty liver, leaky kidney, metabolic syndrome (high blood pressure, waist, low HDL, high trig's, high fasting blood glucose) and whatever damage was done by many years or possible decades of elevated insulin levels. When I started the Pauling Therapy it took a lot of C (15-20 g/day) to reach bowel tolerance. Presently I reach bowel tolerance with 8 grams / day.

In the words of Mark Twain, "Be careful in reading health books. You may die of a misprint."

"Do not let either the medical authorities or politicians mislead you. Find out what the facts are, and make your own decisions about how to lead a happy life and how to work for a better world." - Linus Pauling.

Last edited by DaveYYC : Fri, May-01-15 at 11:32. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Sat, May-02-15, 03:55
Gaz88 Gaz88 is offline
New Member
Posts: 3
 
Plan: Primal
Stats: 157/157/150 Male 175
BF:
Progress:
Default

Hi Dave - Appreciate all that information.

Regarding Vitamin C supplements. Are there different kinds or forms to take? I remember watching a videos by Dr Eric Berg, saying that most Vit C contains a lot of ascorbic acid which can cause problems.

I was just wondering what your thoughts were on this and what kind do you take?
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Sat, May-02-15, 05:36
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 11,051
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

I'm personally not convinced about vitamin c and heart disease, at least, I wouldn't count on it. But the "ascorbic acid isn't vitamin c, you need the full complex," is quackery. Not that there might not be some benefit to some of that "other stuff" that usually comes with vitamin c from natural sources. Ascorbic acid is vitamin c, and against some natural health claims, is effective against scurvy.


http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/NaturalC.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Mon, May-04-15, 22:31
DaveYYC DaveYYC is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: Fung Bailor Taube Eenfeld
Stats: 250/205/175 Male 75 in
BF:
Progress: 60%
Location: Canada
Default Vitamin C supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz88
Hi Dave - Appreciate all that information.

Regarding Vitamin C supplements. Are there different kinds or forms to take? I remember watching a videos by Dr Eric Berg, saying that most Vit C contains a lot of ascorbic acid which can cause problems.

I was just wondering what your thoughts were on this and what kind do you take?


Hi Gaz,

I have been taking plain old ascorbic acid. I use the product from natural factors. I have also seen at the health food store (Calgary Canada) a product called Medi-C.
http://www.pno.ca/item/medi-c-plus.html

It has ascorbic acid and L-Lysine buffered with calcium ascorbate. It also has xylitol and stevia which I wasn't sure how it would effect my insulin resistence.

I really noticed that that I haven't been bothered with the flu or colds since I started taking vitamin C and stopped eating the "good" healthy grains and sugar.

I found a lot of good info on the vitamin C foundation website. On the forum there is a cardiologist that has posted some interesting information.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Tue, Jul-07-15, 12:39
keith v's Avatar
keith v keith v is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 729
 
Plan: Wheat belly
Stats: 235/220/200 Male 6 feet 2 inches
BF:
Progress: 43%
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA Earth
Default

Wow that was a rabbit hole.
It was very enlightening that we really don't know what causes heart disease but we sure have a lot of cures for it.

Vitamin C, isn't fresh meat a good source of that? Esp grass fed un molested meat?
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Tue, Jul-07-15, 14:13
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 11,051
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

The cows make their own vitamin c. So fresh, molested beef would do. You might get more vitamin k from the grass-fed though, maybe that would help.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Tue, Jul-14-15, 16:51
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Default

If you read Gary Taubes' books carefully, you will see that it is carbs not fat, that raise cholesterol, increase the inflammation in the blood vessels, (leading the adherence of plaque) and other ills.

Look in google scholar, as well, for information on the deleterious effects of carbs. Increasing the number of carbs to fight plaque is not only counter to any well documented and tested studies done in the past 100 years, it's dangerous.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Fri, Jul-01-16, 00:14
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 7,570
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/183/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 54%
Location: Texas
Default Linus Pauling

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveYYC
A quote, "I think I know what the answer is... we can get almost complete control of cardiovascular disease, heart attacks and strokes by the proper use of this (vitamin C and lysine) therapy... even cure it.... Its almost miraculous..." - Linus Pauling (1992 Heart Disease Video)

In his retirement, Linus Pauling, the father of modern chemistry and a two time Nobel prize winner became interested in using vitamin C with the essential amino acid lysine to cure heart disease, which he patented.

His theory was laid out in the paper titled, "A Unified Theory of Human Cardiovascular Disease Leading the Way to the Abolition of this Disease as a Cause for Human Mortality".
http://orthomolecular.org/library/j...v07n01-p005.pdf

To summarize, Pauling states that cardiovascular disease is simply scurvy of the blood vessels. Mankind along with a few other mammals have lost the ability to manufacture ascorbate (vitamin C) in the liver, thus vitamin C must be obtained from outside sources. Adjusted for body weight species that make vitamin C make 10 grams / day.

Pauling states that vitamin C is used to make collagen, the bodies supporting structure that gives the blood vessels strenght and elastic properties. The body is smart and has a back up system available if ascorbate supplies are limited and collagen can't be manufactured. LDL cholesterol, specifically LP(a) will be used by the body to patch the weak artery. Pauling mentions in one of his video that he thinks that LP(a) was an adaption due to our bodies lacking the ability to make vitamin C.

When blood vessels become damaged lysine binding sites become exposed. The best repair solution is to manufacture collagen. If none is available then the body uses LP(a) cholesterol as a patch. The LP(a) cholesterol molecules have lysine receptors that allow them to bind or stick to the exposed lysine binding sites on the blood vessels. To make the patch stronger the body will calcify the patch.

Pauling claims that by using high doses of vitamin C with lysine damaged blood vessels can be repaired and possibly reversed. After Pauling's death the therapy has been revised to include vitamin K2 and vitamin (hormone) D3. Vitamin C and lysine are non toxic.

Link to the Pauling therapy protocol:
http://practicingmedicinewithoutali...xcerpt_chp7.pdf

Link to additional websites:
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/
http://www.paulingtherapy.com/index.html

Dr Pauling's Standford medical school lecture on vitamin C and cardiovascular disease. He discusses cardiovascular disease starting at 27 min but the entire lecture is worth listening to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bymKIPaTws

Dr Owen Fonorow (ND) - Direction of Vitamin C Foundation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP8J8xx4AD0

Living Proof Vitamin C Miracle Cure 60 Minutes Video 3 News. A little off topic as it deals with swine flu instead of CVD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTXSTGGRvKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2orjgvW2tY

Dr Thomas Levy: Vitamin C & The Great Supression. Dr Levy is the doctor MD (cardiologist / lawyer) that Alan Smith's family received vitamin C advice from in the Miracle Cure documentary linked above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1kD3BolXnE

I have been following the Pauling vitamin C protocol shortly after I was diagnosed with typeII diabetes in Dec 2013. I stumbled across the vitamin C info while researching T2D. I didn't have any diagnosed heart issues other than fatty liver, leaky kidney, metabolic syndrome (high blood pressure, waist, low HDL, high trig's, high fasting blood glucose) and whatever damage was done by many years or possible decades of elevated insulin levels. When I started the Pauling Therapy it took a lot of C (15-20 g/day) to reach bowel tolerance. Presently I reach bowel tolerance with 8 grams / day.

In the words of Mark Twain, "Be careful in reading health books. You may die of a misprint."

"Do not let either the medical authorities or politicians mislead you. Find out what the facts are, and make your own decisions about how to lead a happy life and how to work for a better world." - Linus Pauling.


This is on my list to investigate more so I'm subscribing to the thread.
Lots of interesting info and links right here in one post.....
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Fri, Jul-01-16, 03:43
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,317
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Since this question has been revived, back to Dr Kendrick's question of What Causes Heart Disease...he is up to PART 17! And still writing. he has gone off on some fascinating side trails.
https://drmalcolmkendrick.org
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:04.


Copyright © 2000-2017 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.