When a person is in a ketogenic state where do the carbs go? Is it possible that since a diabetic is screwed up that this process doesnt work either?

For two days i have raised my carbohydrates 50% just hovering at ketosis and find lower numbers and MUCH lower in the morning. I am going to raise them a bit more.

If my body is in a non-sugar burning state and at the same time is screwed up about sugar (diabetes) maybe too low carb is screwing me up more.

I have seen a few posts saying to eat more carbs.. glad i spotted them.. but low carbers never talk about "where the carbs you DO eat... go?"

where do they go?

my guess.. they go in my blood and do NOT get used up cause I am in ketosis.


ps.. lost 30 pounds 6 years ago low carbing... never gained it back.. i know what i am doing.. just an fyi...

Hi Kent!

The carbs we eat are still digested the same and are converted to glucose. There are cells in the body that require glucose to function and cannot run on ketones so the carbs that we eat that become glucose are preferentially used by those cells. The liver converts dietary protein to glucose in a slower process called gluconeogenesis to provide any remaining glucose needs the body may have which are greatly diminished when the body is using fat as the primary fuel source.
HTH!

There are many claims that white kidney bean extract performs inhibition for the glucose
extraction from carbs(inhibits an enzyme called
amylase that performs the said extraction).
I have yet to find one of these products that
affects glucose in the blood-maybe the liver
is supplying the glucose when it isn't available
from carbs.
Living,learning(well,learning a little from time
to time).
Eddie

The logic would kind of follow that if a diabetic is in ketosis they are not burning as much sugar than if they were not. So does it pay to experiment with low carb just barely above ketosis so you are burning up the glucose you are manufacturing from the crabs you eat? (that WAS a typo but such a fun one i left it)
There are so many low-carb lifestyles where does one start. I know some of them eschew ketosis. It would be rough to eat just enough to stay out of ketosis but not so much as to rocket BG numbers.

thoughts?

The place to start IMHO is at the place where you are getting the results that you want. If your weight is going down, you are looking and feeling good, your blood tests are in a range that you're comfortable with, then that is the level where you should be. This of course, is going to be different for everyone and may require some experimentation.

Eat up to your meter, whatever level of control you can accomplish with amount of carbs you can live with. Some can go almost zero carbs and have great control, some need more to function and have great control too. General rules 1h PP <140, 2 h pp <120, and fasting is <110. So, try different level of carbs and check Bgs often, until you will see which food impacts you the most.
HTH

I eat 50-60 grams of carb a day. Which is apparently low enough to cause ketosis. But there are never any keytones in my urine. Not even a trace. What does this mean?

Mark

50-60 g is may be not low enough to get sufficient level of ketones in urine.
I believe LyleMcDonald explained it much better
http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/cyclic1.htm.
HTH

No ketones in urine=no ketosis!
The maximum number of daily grams of carbs
to put a person into ketosis varies from person
to person.For me,it's 25.
Eddie

I think level of ketones in urine is not not linear realtions to carbs but also a factor of water consumed, BGs, efficiency of using ketones, etc. let's say, one is drinking about a gallon of water a day as many advise on ketogenic diet, so the urine will be highly diluted and ketones concentration will drop or barely any will show up. Or if one has been in ketosis for a extended period of time, then body adjusted to use ketones more efficienly and less show up in urine? There is also insulin level, if one is very IR to even dropping carbs to 25g does not assure deep ketosis since basal insulin can still be high. Just thinking about some possible explanations.
I also recall for ketogenic diet used to treat epilepsy, they recommend to reduce water intake to keep ketones concentration high, so water intake can give escew the test results (not?).
EDA: Ok, I have found something that explains it better, and LyleMcDonald does it all (as usual):

and this one just because we are most diabetics here, so here we go:

This actually explains why it is harder to lose fat for T2 and very IR folks.
http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/cyclic2.htm
HTH

Am I understanding this correctly that the author is stating that people must be hypoglycemic before they can be in ketosis? Even normal people can't achieve that nor should they since it would be a pretty miserable existance as anyone who has spend any amount of time in hypoglycemic territory can tell you.

eddie, a person can very well be in ketosis and not be showing measurable ketones in the urine. Remember, ketones that show in the urine are the excess that have been wasted by the body and a person can test negative and stil be in ketosis for a variety of reasons such as very diluted urine (ketone test strips only register when the concentration of ketones reach a certain point and dilution lowers that concentration) or when the body uses most of the ketones produced for energy.

From the article linked above:
"Prior to the depletion workout, it is important that you get out of
ketosis by consuming 50 grams of carbs (fruit is ideal) about 2 hours
before the workout. The rationale is this: while in ketosis, the body will
prefer ketones to glucose for fuel. To achieve maximal glycogen depletion
in all muscle fibers, you need to exit ketosis. Fruit (which will
preferentially refill liver glycogen) is the ideal way to do this.
"
So.. does it make sense that in some weird way It might be better for SOME Type 2's (like me) to be OUT of ketosis to burn more glycogen/sugar.
I am thinking I will stay on the same low carb diet I am doing now (cause i know i maintain ketosis easily) and then each meal add an apple.. see if that will bump me out of ketosis.

What does it mean when we say the body is burning ketones or fats versus being in a non-ketosis state. WHAT is burning this energy. Is the complete entire system of the body switched over.
Since my liver is SO Good at makeing sugar out of protein I am wondering if ketosis is actualy a rotten state to be in sugar wise, no matter how good it makes me feel energy wise.

DO some Type 2s have better luck on the zone for instance?

personally i dont think anyone understands the body, diet, sugar, diabetes, ketosis etc etc. the systems are too way complex to have a 'one fits all' view of them all.

Gonna try the apple a meal thing.. or at least add an additional 20 carbs each meal.

(no weight loss... no inches lost.. getting stronger... BG 120-150 A1c in february. off drugs since november.. but paying for it with much higher numbers)

I hope you read the entired article, because you just took this part out of content. He stated that it is one of the ways to establish deep ketosis FAST; it is not consider blood glucose of 60 is not HYPO, but on the low side of the current FBG range: 60-100. I was hitting mid 50s while taking metformin without even noticing, and feel normal with BGs 60 too. For a non-diabetic person is not a problem to hit low BGs fast when carbs are restricted and glucogen stores are depleted especially if one is athlet and does weight training.
Lyle McDonald is very well known and respected author of many books and articles, guru of weight loss/nutrition, exercise, and he goes into explaining human biochemistry into a great level of details never mentioned in popular diet books written by some doctors He wrote "The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and the Practitioner" which is considered to be the most comprehensive book on low-carbohydrate diets ever written...

I did read the article, Dina, but it refers to lowering body fat in preparation for a bodybuilding contest (ie taking it much lower than the average person) which I don't believe too many people here are doing. With all respect to Lyle, a blood sugar in the 50-60 range is considered low and at the very minimum borderline hypoglycemia.
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/low_.../article_em.htm
and a level at 50 can affect brain function.
I have to ask why the hurry to get into ketosis for the average person?

OTOH, if a blood glucose of 50-60 is perfectly okay according to Lyle, then attempting tigher control of blood glucose and an A1C averaging about 85 should be very doable even if a person has to spend some time in the lower ranges, right?

He does state that normal BGs is 80-120, but the article is written for bodybuilder (not diabetics). I provided the link only because it explains ketosis much better than any other diet books (and I have read nearly all of them).


Who said something about need to be in ketosis for Bgs control or hit it fast? This was not the point, again, this was just an example how a healthy person can achieve ketosis much faster than T2 by simply dropping carbs, and why it is hardly possible for any T2 to hit 50-60 range without medications and/or insulin just by dropping carbs- same old liver problem.

Lyle speaks of body builders not T2, those folks who train for competition and try to shed as much FAT as they can before the event. Keep also in mind, this is CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet) design to preserve as much muscle mass as possible while losing as much FAT as they can, and this diet includes regular carbing up to replenish glucogen stores.I don't think he states that it is normal to be in 50-60 range for a long time, it is normal for non-diabetic to hit a lower BGs at the beginning of ketosis, not being at this range for the rest of the diet. Tight control is possible if the controller is working properly and fine tuning is doable, not when the controller is broken. My work revolves around control systems, and I happen to know a thing or two about controller tuning. It is easier to control Bgs with low carb diet but hardly possible for T2 to be at 85 around the clock, not even possible for healthy person on a regular diet. This is actually actually OT.