Hi Margot, I am glad you have responded as I have been reading your posts on ZIOH. I even emailed my wife your link of the photos. I thought it was pretty amazing. I would join the other forum but I find it a bit heavy handed, too many thou shalts, thought I would not be able to join because I still take supplements, eat avocado. If it wasn't for the avo and supplements I would be 100% according to zioh.
Have to say not eating veggies is nothing. Have been reading the long question answer thread with Bear and people seem to love veggies. For me it's giving up the pizza, bread, ice cream, frozen yogurt and other assorted carbs. And fruit. Once you lose the addiction to carbs, what's the big deal about giving up veggies.
Can you answer my question about the Bear's heart surgery. I haven't found anyone questioning him about it. He claims it was from his first 23 years. Sorry but that does not ring true for me. If we go all beef which I have and have serious heart problems, like sudden death, is the answer that we ate carbs in the past? Sorry but this worries me as my dad died at 63 of coronary heart disease and he ate lots of meat, not too much junk food and bread. In my life I have bought into the non fat life style before I saw the light, and ate tons of bread, cereal, fruit, pasta, etc but very little fat. Since going on Atkins, I pretty much gave up junky junk. My downfall has always been the really good quality breads and good pizza and pasta.
Do you think I would be accepted by Charles even though I eat avo and take supplements?
I guess I could let the avo go but not sure why as it is a good fat.
Thanks,
Bob

I am trying to figure out if avocado is okay on zero carb. Is it considered a fruit or is it a good fat. I eat half of a avocado with my eggs every morning. Also I have Braggs Apple Cider Vinegar mixed with water every day. Is this ok on zero carb? That's it for me. Other than the avo I just eat lots of beef, 3 eggs with butter,and a lot of water.
I have been working my way through the Bear thread. Surprised there was so much negativity about giving up veggies. For me if I can give up good bread, good pizza, yummy Italian food, Mexican food, ice cream frozen yogurt, cookies crackers fries, chocolate, fruit, what's the big deal about no veggies.
Bob

Eating avocado is not ZC, but VLC.

ZIOH advocates no plant matter and no supplements either, as we believe we get everything we need from fatty meats and some people do OK with dairy as well.

I cannot speak for Charles and the Mods, but they might perhaps think there are other better suited places for you to post at, but the forum is there for you to do all the reading you wanted!

I wish you the best of luck! I personally have no problems with what you are doing (and not saying anyone would.. it is just that the ZIOH forum is for pure ZCers). I often remind people that I was LC first and then VLC for almost a year before going all in with ZC. I do not think I would have been as successful any other way.

Thanks for the response Margot. Today I had my eggs for the first time without avo. Hard for me to eat so I may have to give up eggs but I am ready to give up the avo as I really want to try zero carbs. What about Apple Cider Vinegar? I take so little of it and it helps kill my appetite in the night time.
Supplements not ready to stop. Read last night on the Bear thread that they are ok if you don't overdo. I take fish oil, Niaspan, and a few various vitamins.
As far as getting everything we need from fatty meats, Bear says overcooking will kill the nutrients. I am eating lots of fatty meat but well cooked. Most of my beef comes from chuck roast, cooked in a slo cooker.
I would say my journey has pretty much mirrored that of you and your husband. I started Atkins 7 or 8 years ago and my experience was pretty much what you described. I finally saw the light this past summer after a few bad blood tests, and doing research. I realized how I was eating huge quantities of fruit and I had to stop that.
If I can go two weeks without avo, I may email Charles.

Here is a link for Apple Cider Vinegar nutritional content:

http://www.3fatchicks.com/food-calo.../food/02048/0/0

Margot,

I read your journal at ZIOH, I used to be a member, but now am just a guest.

Anyway, your last posts ends with:

"I would be awesome served with whipped cream"

I can't stop giggling over that one!

All the best, Dianna

LOL whipped cream is ZC until you start putting it on stuff like pumpkin pie cake!

Hi Margot

As a ZC'r for life can you tell me when following strict ZC for life, does the body naturally reach a certian "set point" and it finally stops losing weight? Does the body just "regulate" itself at a certian point where you don't lose or gain?

Thanks! I'd appreciate your insight.

Hi, Margot! I'm so glad to see you're posting here, since I can't post at ZIOH. I've been following your journal and have been dying to ask you a question. Did you have any kind of adaptation period with ZC? I tried it last November and it was both the best and worst I have ever felt, lol. Well, "worst" may be an exaggeration.

ZC was the only time I have ever felt completely free of cravings. My life has always been dominated by food and thoughts of food, from childhood. On ZC I would eat a meal, and then live my life with no thoughts of food until I felt real hunger again, whenever that might be. And I didn't want anything except meat. Usually all I can think about is bread or pizza.

The problems came at about week three. I became very tired, weak and cold. The breaking point came when I found myself sitting wrapped up in a down comforter with a heating pad inside and still felt cold. I went back to carbs the next day and felt normal again, except that I no longer had the same fabulous mental clarity and my cravings were back. Along with the 13 pounds I'd lost.

Any ideas? Thanks so much.

JoAnn, I have no idea. I have been roughly at this same weight for a year now, and I would not be unhappy to lose another 10-15lbs. But this is not in my control so I have to forget about the weight and just enjoy my better health. I have not been on a scale for months and do not feel any worse for it, in fact I feel better not chasing a number anymore and just focusing on day to day energy and feeling good.

I do know that for a lot of ZIOH women, there does appear to be a time when the weight loss stops, but really, those women know there is no other 'way' for them to be eating. For them it is a matter of feeling well and carrying around a few extra pounds, or feeling poorly and gaining weight back.

Who knows where I (or them) will be a year or 2 or 10 from now though.

*****

Happy, the only time I have heard of people with that complaint, was when they were not eating enough fat. I heard of one woman complain of exactly what you are saying, and it turns out she was living pretty much off of beef jerky. She 'quit' ZC and when back to her LC/VLC and blamed ZC for making her feel poorly.

I am not saying that is you, I am only pointing out that not enough fat seems to bring on those exact symptoms you mentioned. When you went back to eating carbs, you were getting the energy you should have been getting from eating more fat. Protein does not provide a lot of energy on a ketogenic diet

Nothing scientific or groundbreaking here I am afraid, but that would be my very first guess.

Thank you Margot, I appreciate your response.

Oh, as for adaptation.. I took like a duck to water to ZC!

I had already been VLC/high fat since March of '08 before I dropped the last of the carbs in Jan '09.

I had significantly more energy and faster weight loss on VLC/high fat than I did previously on Atkins. I went from 65/30/5 (F/P/C) to closer to 75/20/<5 after reading Barry Grove's book 'natural health and weight loss'. Some days I would eat even more fat, as much as 85%! But I always tried to 'get my veggies in' because I thought they were good for me.

So all I had to do was ditch that last little bit of carbs and the bloat went away immediately, my weight loss blew past my previous 'stalled out' weight of 165 (for almost 3 years on LC). It was magical and just felt SO RIGHT.

So no real transition other than immediate bloat gone, stomach flattened, cravings disappeared and weight loss commenced. The blood sugar/mood swings were a thing of the past and I no longer hobbled around the house every morning because of aches and pains. None of those to me, are worth trading off for a few carbs

None of that was happening with LC or VLC.

I think how fast one adapts to ZC is a lot dependent on how they were eating before, what their 'addictions' are (sodas/sweets/cheese/fruit/avocados etc.) and I also see a trend that women who dabble more in a low fat lifestyle previously seem to have more troubles than I did. I never caught the 'low fat' bug.

I wish I had all the answers I would love to say that EVERYONE who tries ZC will be as thin as they ever wanted to be. But to be realistic, I did a lot of damage to myself over the years, plus there are factors like how I was fed as a baby and how my own Mother ate when she was carrying me.

So I take faith that my body is dong the best it can with the tools I have and I try to find a way each and every day to enjoy a weight i have not seen since I was in high school! I know other women who still carry much more than I, who feel exactly the same way. They would all tell you that if they knew then what they know now they would have done ZC a long time ago.

This is why we remind people that ZIOH is about HEALTH and not called ZIOW for a reason

"What about Apple Cider Vinegar? I take so little of it and it helps kill my appetite in the night time."


There has been a lot of discussion about this kind of thing at ZIOH. Whether it be tea or coffee or something else.

The bottom line is, we at ZIOH think that you should be eating when you are hungry and not trying to suppress it with anything

It is as simple as that to start. Regulating hunger was a downfall for me for my entire life. I was either starving or craving or no appetite for anything but carbs. Once I figured out I could pretty much eat whatever (meat) I wanted and as much as I wanted I came to realize that those times when I wanted to 'munch' were merely cravings. Those went away with ZC.

If you are not hungry for meat, you are not experiencing true hunger.

Thanks, Margot. I thought I was eating enough fat at the time, but now I'm not so sure. I did get the same response from someone here at the time.

I hope I'm not being a pest, but...how much is enough? I guess if I were to try it again, I should just increase the fat until the symptoms subside...?