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  #1   ^
Old Sat, Nov-05-11, 20:57
hysteria's Avatar
hysteria hysteria is offline
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Posts: 1,106
 
Plan: General LC
Stats: 232/157.4/145 Female 5'6.5
BF:...getting lower
Progress: 86%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default Adrenals / hypothyroid

I like my pDoc - she is honest and listens to me - most of the time. She was the one who finally started treating me for hypothyroid. She even went with me when I tried switching to Armour. The one she wouldn't support was Hcg - thinks its a passing 'fad' that will eventually prove itself dangerous - this is HER opinion, not mine...but refused to prescribe Hcg.
My last panel about 3 weeks ago showed TSH spike back to 3.5+ when for the last 2.5 years, I've been maintaining about 1 - unfortunately, I don't have access to my records right now or I'd go into T3/T4 detail.
Back in the spring, after reading and researching about Armour, asked to switch. She was more than happy to try - 60mcg (from 75mcg levoxyl). Said Armour is more potent than levoxyl (didn't remember reading that in the literature...?).
Didn't go back for anymore blood work, but within 6 weeks, could feel the hypo-symptoms kicking back in, so I went back to levoxyl. When I went in for my last panel, she was not surprised I switched back, but didn't have any answers. Nor did I ask if switching back & forth could have led to the current problems.?
Needless to say, I am now on 88mcg levoxyl. Most symptoms have been eased, but still find myself fatigued (occasionally) and panic-y (heart palps / general anxiety).
So now I am really starting to wonder about my adrenals. I think 'typical' symptoms are more severe - but I am sure years of general stress (money, death (mom), marriage, general anxiety & depression) and yo-yo dieting have done a number.
I also suffer from hypoglycemia - recently, since incorporating 20 minutes of HITT type exercising w/ muscle training, have almost passed out twice - and it takes me the rest of the day to recover (remain shaky, foggy/hard to concentrate, heart palps, headache). I was REALLY stupid at first and was trying to exercise without eating (at 10:30 am ). The occurrances happened while I was still starving myself *DUH* - this last week, I began eating before exercise and it helped.
I don't know how much she really knows / understands about hypothyroidism / adrenal fatigue, etc...
She hasn't even told me why my thyroid is out of whack...I don't know that I've been tested for Hashi's...? I believe when I asked at diagnosis, it was a general answer of 'lots of people have unexplained thyroid problems'.
I am going to do my 6 week follow up this time. I want to optimize - or get as close-to as possible.
I want to talk about
1) going back to Armour, but obviously, upping the dosage
2) addressing the concerns about adreneals
I hope she's willing to listen.
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, Nov-05-11, 23:51
heirloom10 heirloom10 is offline
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Posts: 177
 
Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 120/132/115 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: -240%
Location: canada
Default

hello!! maybe you can bring in some info from stopthethyroidmadness.com about how you need to up the dose of armour according to symptoms until you feel better? considering your doctor has helped you this far, it sounds promising that she will listen.

as you might already know, you can order your own adrenal tests (and your own thyroid tests, including the ones for hashimotos if you're curious about that), so maybe you will consider doing that to check out the adrenal issue yourself (the test will show you if you indeed do have one or not).

take it easy on yourself while you get this sorted out... although it is hard, don't worry so much about losing weight, because i don't think you will be able to safely do that until you get your thyroid health on track. did you know that a symptom of thyroid disease is craving carbs? another reason to not be hard on yourself now.

i am pretty sure the general reason for the thyroid being "out of wack" is some stressful life event that throws the endocrine system out of balance. it could be a small or large thing, a series of slightly stressful events, any kind of stress. underappreciated by most doctors but that seems to be the explanation.

sending warmth your way!
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Nov-10-11, 14:44
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hysteria
Back in the spring, after reading and researching about Armour, asked to switch. She was more than happy to try - 60mcg (from 75mcg levoxyl). Said Armour is more potent than levoxyl (didn't remember reading that in the literature...?).
Didn't go back for anymore blood work, but within 6 weeks, could feel the hypo-symptoms kicking back in, so I went back to levoxyl.
It sounds like you didn't increase your initial dose beyond that initial 60mg (1gr).

Among the "mistakes" reported at:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.co...-patients-make/
are:
Quote:
1) being held on a starting dose (such as one grain, less, or slightly more) longer than two weeks
2) being bound by the directives of a TSH-obsessed doctor
3) failing to get a raise of desiccated thyroid until the “next labwork”, which can be weeks and months away
4) following an inaccurate Synthroid-to-Armour conversion equivalence chart
5) being forced to lower a dose due to a high free T3 with continuing hypo symptoms, which is a sign of low cortisol or low iron, not too much desiccated thyroid, or
6) being afraid to go higher!
Several of those could apply to you!

60mg (1gr) is very much a starting dose, and as it says at the same above site:
Quote:
The key to understanding this mistake is with the word “starting dose”. When first starting on any natural desiccated thyroid product, it can be wise to start on one grain or less, which is lower than you will ultimately need. Why? To help your body adjust to the direct T3. BUT, patients have found it UNWISE to stay on that low dose much longer than 2 weeks without raising. Why? Because hypothyroid symptoms can return with a VENGEANCE due to the feedback loop between the hypothalamus, pituitary and thyroid gland, i.e your hypothalamus gland senses the addition of desiccated thyroid (thinking the thyroid sent it), then sends a message to the pituitary gland, which in turn sends a message to the thyroid gland to stop producing, making you even more hypothyroid than you began.
It could very well be that you didn't increase your dose, and increase it enough. It does sound like you might need a doctor who is more knowledgeable.

I switched from Levoxyl to Armour this May, and it has made a huge difference in my life - among the differences: seeing my total cholesterol drop 100 points, and losing 25 more pounds after having been on a long stall.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 06:03
inatic's Avatar
inatic inatic is offline
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Posts: 48
 
Plan: leanbodies consulting
Stats: 183/130/130 Female 5'4.5"
BF:lean
Progress: 100%
Location: alpharetta,georgia (n of
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you need to be fully evaluated and DO NOT do hi intensity cardio or training while feeling this way!

always keep copies of your labs and write on them how you were feeling, what meds/dose you took etc..
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 08:18
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Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
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Posts: 1,388
 
Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
BF:
Progress: 103%
Location: NE Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inatic
you need to be fully evaluated and DO NOT do hi intensity cardio or training while feeling this way!

always keep copies of your labs and write on them how you were feeling, what meds/dose you took etc..


THIS, and Merpig's post!!! Both are very valuable!!!
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 15:01
hysteria's Avatar
hysteria hysteria is offline
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Posts: 1,106
 
Plan: General LC
Stats: 232/157.4/145 Female 5'6.5
BF:...getting lower
Progress: 86%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

Something was lost in translation. I usually have access to ALL my health information, but in the last month, the practice switched the patient access system - I have to go to the office for new login / password.

To clarify - I AM NOT EXERCISING WITHOUT EATING. I have scaled back. I have not had another episode.

I did have a full work up - everything just this past spring - even an EKG. Things on levoxyl were fine until I switched to Armour without follow-up.

I would rather try & work with my pdoc I have than start over again. She's not ignorant - but is she educated enough in thyroid issues? Idk? IMHO, it is also on ME as a patient to follow-up. I never called or tried to schedule an appointment when Armour didn't seem to be working - I just went back to what did. I accept that responsibility myself - it wasn't her fault.

Merpig - thank you for all the great information.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 15:47
inatic's Avatar
inatic inatic is offline
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Posts: 48
 
Plan: leanbodies consulting
Stats: 183/130/130 Female 5'4.5"
BF:lean
Progress: 100%
Location: alpharetta,georgia (n of
Default

many people find they have to CHEW The amour and break down the mountains of cellulose they added to it. NP thyroid has NO cellulose and might be an option OR just add T3/cytomel.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 17:34
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Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
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Posts: 1,388
 
Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
BF:
Progress: 103%
Location: NE Indiana
Default

Oh, no...no one is saying you are exercising WITHOUT eating...we are saying that working out RAISES fasting insulin and if you aren't on 'enough' Armour incoming...it's defeating all your hard work!

That's too bad you're not privy to your records...but you go and get them (make sure you have FT4, FT3 and the lab ranges that were USED) and come on back here and we'll help you! It's very difficult to get any doctor to 'wrap their head' around thyroid, and MY own psychologist JUST told me (and with VERY wide eyes, lol) OMG..you were RIGHT!!! low T3 IS a source of depression!!!!

Well, no kidding! LOL We just want to help you. Hang in!

The NP thyroid DOES have an admission of 'guilt' this week folks, it may be 'gluten free' but they are using CORN and corn fillers in it...I am trying my first dosage AT the pulmo's office so I don't have a reaction! Corn is also what they use to make el cheapo synthetic T4 only! They might have just been straight UP in the beginning to all of us! (can ya tell I'm a little 'blistered' over this?!). LOL
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 19:55
hysteria's Avatar
hysteria hysteria is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,106
 
Plan: General LC
Stats: 232/157.4/145 Female 5'6.5
BF:...getting lower
Progress: 86%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neanderpam
Oh, no...no one is saying you are exercising WITHOUT eating...we are saying that working out RAISES fasting insulin and if you aren't on 'enough' Armour incoming...it's defeating all your hard work!

That's too bad you're not privy to your records...but you go and get them (make sure you have FT4, FT3 and the lab ranges that were USED) and come on back here and we'll help you! It's very difficult to get any doctor to 'wrap their head' around thyroid, and MY own psychologist JUST told me (and with VERY wide eyes, lol) OMG..you were RIGHT!!! low T3 IS a source of depression!!!!

Well, no kidding! LOL We just want to help you. Hang in!

The NP thyroid DOES have an admission of 'guilt' this week folks, it may be 'gluten free' but they are using CORN and corn fillers in it...I am trying my first dosage AT the pulmo's office so I don't have a reaction! Corn is also what they use to make el cheapo synthetic T4 only! They might have just been straight UP in the beginning to all of us! (can ya tell I'm a little 'blistered' over this?!). LOL


Thanks Pam / inactic

My current script with testing in 3 weeks is for 88mcg levoxyl

On my own I have added a 1/2 grain of Armour (started last weekend). Have not had one heart palp incident - anxiety has been almost non existent - I feel better. Even with TOM this week and having a head cold, I haven't felt blah - well, except Wednesday, but I was running a 100+ fever :/

I have been holding both dosages under my tongue for about 2/3 minutes (??)...should I still try & chew the Armour up?

I left a message with my pDoc today (she was out). I am going to tell her about adding the Armour, so she can note it in my records. I will ask her too if they could fax the info I need to access my records. As soon as I get the official #'s I will post.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Nov-12-11, 07:48
Neanderpam's Avatar
Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
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Posts: 1,388
 
Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
BF:
Progress: 103%
Location: NE Indiana
Default

Levoxyl is very SPECIFIC in it's dosing instructions and does NOT work well when taken sublingually!!! (under the tongue/in cheek). Please do not use that particular drug that way.

Um..oh...gosh...I hope the doc is 'ok' with the Armour..but you see...if you had FT4, and FT3 tests you would have a GREAT idea of 'where you are' and 'where you need to go'.

Armour added MORE T4 and just a teensy bit of T3 (whereas, the doctor adding synthetic T3 TO the Levoxyl might be the 'way to go' for YOU).

So, now you are essentially intaking 106mcg. T4 and only a teensy little tiny 4.5mg. of T3. You're just adding in a lot more T4. Sigh. And probably what you REALLY need is to scale the T4 back (maybe, depends on the FT's) and add IN T3.

Now, everyone is different, but most human thyroids spit out (over the course of a day..not all at once hopefully, ha ha) around 18 to 27mcg. of T3 a DAY depending on 'need'.

If I were YOU...I would stop the Armour ....and go and test in the morning (on no meds...since T4 won't 'show up' if you take it before hand anyway..up to you) for Ft4, and ft3....and that would show you pretty much where you are.

I, personally (note the 'personally') like my FT4 ONLY about midway of it's range and maybe even slightly under...(and docs who only GIVE T4 get used to seeing a high FT4..so they are usually no fun with this) and like my FT3 around 3/4 of it's range..but not higher cuz then I get 'fidgety'..but I also take 11 other meds, and some people like that FT3 WAY up there in range..and need it there to function.

I hope I've given you a little 'look' into what's usually 'appropriate'. If a doctor keeps just doing TSH...well...that's not going to help you very much.

How does the doc figure 4.5mcg. of T3 (A grain of Armour has approx. 37mcg. of T4 and about 9mg. of T3 ok?) in that 30mg of Armour would help? AND it's adding MORE T4..if your body isn't converting any T4 to T3, it's like going out to a junked car with NO engine, and putting a full tank of gas into it.
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Nov-12-11, 08:35
hysteria's Avatar
hysteria hysteria is offline
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Posts: 1,106
 
Plan: General LC
Stats: 232/157.4/145 Female 5'6.5
BF:...getting lower
Progress: 86%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

Wow - interesting about the levoxyl. I will stop holding and just swallow - the current pills are weird though - they are more like dissovable strips than the hard pill I was used to. As soon as they hit my mouth, they begin to dissolve (?)

My tests do include both T3/T4 (done every 6 months - or 6 weeks if meds are adjusted) - I just don't have them.

Sorry Pam, again, guess I kind of hid it - I started taking the 1/2 grain of Armour before bed - nothing to do with my pdoc directly. She doesn't even know. I had a full 'script left from the last experiment.

Again, thanks for all the information. Even though I do feel better, I will stop the Armour and ask for a retest next week. I take full responsibility & feel amazingly stupid now. I just want to "get better"...
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Nov-13-11, 11:27
Neanderpam's Avatar
Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
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Posts: 1,388
 
Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
BF:
Progress: 103%
Location: NE Indiana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hysteria
Wow - interesting about the levoxyl. I will stop holding and just swallow - the current pills are weird though - they are more like dissovable strips than the hard pill I was used to. As soon as they hit my mouth, they begin to dissolve (?)

My tests do include both T3/T4 (done every 6 months - or 6 weeks if meds are adjusted) - I just don't have them.

Sorry Pam, again, guess I kind of hid it - I started taking the 1/2 grain of Armour before bed - nothing to do with my pdoc directly. She doesn't even know. I had a full 'script left from the last experiment.

Again, thanks for all the information. Even though I do feel better, I will stop the Armour and ask for a retest next week. I take full responsibility & feel amazingly stupid now. I just want to "get better"...



I know......about wanting to 'get better' for sure. and I did NOT 'get better' in the thyroid department until I DID get some T3. But, you also have to know that if your iron, or ferritin is low..or your progesterone...that can actually make you more prone to having side effects if you DO start T3 too.

So, you sure need those tested too (Now, not 'hemoglobin'...the tests are called: ferritin and 'iron'...two tests, don't cost a lot).

If all the doc did was TOTAL T's, they will be pretty dang useless too..make sure they are doing FREE T's (if she wants an explanation: here it is:

Total T4 and Total T3 show what's 'circulating in the blood stream'. While Free T4 and Free T3 show what's USABLE to the body. so, you want the Free's.

I, and my psychologist are thrilled to hear that a psych doc is doing this! There is a famous psych doc here in Indiana (Dr. Don Michaels) who went into just doing thyroid patients... and used T4 and T3 as 'tools'. She, or you, can look up that doctor (look around the South Bend/Elkhart area, hint hint) and she could even call and get more info on all of this from a psychological point of view (I'm hoping she DOES find info on him/from him!). OH, edited...I don't know if this listserve is still up and running, but give this to her as well: http://www.thyroid.emissary.net\thyroid

Even if the doc does synthetic T4 AND synthetic T3....you can still feel well without porcine thyroid...many of the doctors on my lists I give out do a synthetic combo and they are so good at it, that those patients feel just as well as the ones on porcine and natural dessicated.

Down the road, if you need info, research to back you up, let me know, pm me, and I'll try and find whatever you can use that's from a MEDICAL standpoint (not just some thyroid patient advocate on the net, ahem, lol).

Best of luck to you!

Last edited by Neanderpam : Sun, Nov-13-11 at 11:32.
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  #13   ^
Old Sun, Nov-13-11, 11:56
CindyGirl CindyGirl is offline
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Posts: 12
 
Plan: Paleo
Stats: 253/237.1/140 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 14%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neanderpam
I know......about wanting to 'get better' for sure. and I did NOT 'get better' in the thyroid department until I DID get some T3. But, you also have to know that if your iron, or ferritin is low..or your progesterone...that can actually make you more prone to having side effects if you DO start T3 too.

So, you sure need those tested too (Now, not 'hemoglobin'...the tests are called: ferritin and 'iron'...two tests, don't cost a lot).

If all the doc did was TOTAL T's, they will be pretty dang useless too..make sure they are doing FREE T's (if she wants an explanation: here it is:

Total T4 and Total T3 show what's 'circulating in the blood stream'. While Free T4 and Free T3 show what's USABLE to the body. so, you want the Free's.

I, and my psychologist are thrilled to hear that a psych doc is doing this! There is a famous psych doc here in Indiana (Dr. Don Michaels) who went into just doing thyroid patients... and used T4 and T3 as 'tools'. She, or you, can look up that doctor (look around the South Bend/Elkhart area, hint hint) and she could even call and get more info on all of this from a psychological point of view (I'm hoping she DOES find info on him/from him!). OH, edited...I don't know if this listserve is still up and running, but give this to her as well: http://www.thyroid.emissary.net\thyroid

Even if the doc does synthetic T4 AND synthetic T3....you can still feel well without porcine thyroid...many of the doctors on my lists I give out do a synthetic combo and they are so good at it, that those patients feel just as well as the ones on porcine and natural dessicated.

Down the road, if you need info, research to back you up, let me know, pm me, and I'll try and find whatever you can use that's from a MEDICAL standpoint (not just some thyroid patient advocate on the net, ahem, lol).

Best of luck to you!


Neanderpam is SO RIGHT! I am personally an Armour lover. It works well for me. I take 3 grains right now. When it was unavailable for awhile, I went to a levox and cytomel mix and it worked okay, but not as good for me as the Armour. I have just had my does decreased. I suspect it is from my diet change, but not sure. I have struggled with this for 13 years, and it is not fun. I keep records of EVERYTHING. I also take natural progesterone, which helps a great deal (I am 47). I have both Hashimoto's and Celiac, so I have maintained gluten free for quite some time, which is important. My Doc only takes "free" tests for follow-up dosing. I don't really know why, and I really haven't asked. When I lived in CA, and went to another Doc that specialized in hormones she also did the same thing and didn't event take tsh after the initial appointment. Also, she instructed me not to take meds the morning I was coming for blood work. I don't really know of anyone on the East Coast, but what Neanderpam is saying has been the answer for me.

Best of Luck- Cindy
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  #14   ^
Old Sun, Nov-13-11, 19:07
Neanderpam's Avatar
Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
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Posts: 1,388
 
Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
BF:
Progress: 103%
Location: NE Indiana
Default

Oh, I'm so happy you've had success with Armour Cindy, and thank you so much for your kind words!
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Dec-05-11, 14:15
hysteria's Avatar
hysteria hysteria is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,106
 
Plan: General LC
Stats: 232/157.4/145 Female 5'6.5
BF:...getting lower
Progress: 86%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

Yipes - so, the new office has been crazy - and if it wasn't for the fact it took me 15 years to find a doctor I trust, I would probably leave. I figure I'll give them a couple more months to work the kinks out though.
Finally got my 10/14 blood work results (when on 75mg levoxyl):

TSH Total = 3.588
T4 (free) = 1.21
T3 (free) = 2.90

I go back for follow-up in January (upped to 88mg levoxyl) - later than I would like, but most convienent for my schedule.
Thoughts? TIA!
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