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  #1   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 01:21
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Default Jimmy Moore's nutritional ketosis experiment

This may have been posted before but I missed it.

Jimmy Moore of Living La Vida is experimenting on himself and losing weight again finding that high protein was a problem for him.

We think we are eating right, low carbs and yet we are not losing? Why? He found he needed lower carbs and protein, and higher fat.

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/...-day-1-30/14409 ~

Fascinating read....

Last edited by Aradasky : Sat, Jul-07-12 at 08:55.
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 02:02
ICDogg's Avatar
ICDogg ICDogg is offline
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Posts: 1,563
 
Plan: Low carb, high fat keto
Stats: 310/212/183 Male 6'0"
BF:D
Progress: 77%
Location: Philadelphia area
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Interesting that he's just getting to that... in this forum, upping the fat percentage is old hat.
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  #3   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 04:51
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kindke kindke is offline
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Posts: 451
 
Plan: my own
Stats: 278/217/185 Male 5 feet 11 inches
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Progress: 66%
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Atkins "fat fast" should make almost anyone drop weight quickly but it is generally unsustainable due to very poor palatability.
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  #4   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 04:55
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WagsMarie WagsMarie is offline
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Posts: 176
 
Plan: Primal Blueprint
Stats: 230/200.7/165 Female 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 45%
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Jimmy has been glorifying fat intake for more than a year now. I think the ketosis monitoring is keeping him on track with the carbs he was consuming. He was probably suffering from carb creep in a big way. People seem to revile Ketostix for their false negatives, etc., but I found they really helped me for the first two months. I had to up my carbs to shift a month long stall but I am still at 70% fat.

Edit: just checked MYPLAN and I am now at 60% fat! Didn't even realize it.
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  #5   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 05:10
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leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WagsMarie
Jimmy has been glorifying fat intake for more than a year now. I think the ketosis monitoring is keeping him on track with the carbs he was consuming. He was probably suffering from carb creep in a big way. People seem to revile Ketostix for their false negatives, etc., but I found they really helped me for the first two months. I had to up my carbs to shift a month long stall but I am still at 70% fat.

Edit: just checked MYPLAN and I am now at 60% fat! Didn't even realize it.


Its more about the protein - some people are so metabolically damaged that they have a big insulin response to protein. With insulin levels really high, ketosis is just not going to happen as you won't burn your own fat. By lowering protein and upping fat, calories are kept stable and insulin levels reduced.

Lee
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  #6   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 06:23
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
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Location: Southern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
Its more about the protein - some people are so metabolically damaged that they have a big insulin response to protein. With insulin levels really high, ketosis is just not going to happen as you won't burn your own fat. By lowering protein and upping fat, calories are kept stable and insulin levels reduced.

Lee

That is what I have found for me, it is not just upping fat, it is lowering protein. I cannot eat more than a bare minimum of protein and not stall. 0 carb or not. I have to have 70%+ fat in my day so I am adding butter, coconut oil and olive oil all the time.
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 06:40
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Jimmy's problem is that he eats too much. Even good food isn't good for you in excess.

But I know he's trying to beat that; it's both a habit and a soother, so it's difficult. And his own brother died a year or so ago, having never gotten a grip on it, so I give Jimmy a lot of credit.
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 06:57
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MandalayVA MandalayVA is offline
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Plan: whole foods
Stats: 240/180/140 Female 63 inches
BF:too f'ing much
Progress: 60%
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Jimmy's problem is that he eats too much. Even good food isn't good for you in excess.

But I know he's trying to beat that; it's both a habit and a soother, so it's difficult. And his own brother died a year or so ago, having never gotten a grip on it, so I give Jimmy a lot of credit.


Um, his brother has been dead for almost four years. Thankfully he doesn't seem to be using that for an excuse for being fat these days, at least not publicly.

I agree that Jimmy eats too much, but he's also notoriously devoted to frankenfoods. I know he got off diet soda, but only after years and a lot of denial that the sodas had anything to do with him gaining weight.
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 07:06
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
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He does say in the blog that he is not counting calories. I am even tho my fat level is over 70%
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 07:09
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aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
Its more about the protein - some people are so metabolically damaged that they have a big insulin response to protein.

I think that feeding experiments show that protein, even in healthy people, provokes as sharp an insulin response as carbs (see the heading "MYTH: Carbohydrate Is Singularly Responsible for Driving Insulin"). Apparently, amino acids drive this insulin response directly, without first being converted to glucose. And apparently, glucagon that the body secretes during protein consumption doesn't cause fat to be released from cells to cancel insulin's effect on fat-burning. Since protein stimulates insulin secretion, it would cause a rapid drop in blood glucose if no carbohydrate is consumed with the protein. Glucagon prevents this rapid drop in blood sugar by stimulating the liver to produce glucose.

So, when Moore restricted his protein intake, he was reducing his glucagon production, and thereby reducing his glucose production, allowing lipolysis to occur.
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 07:25
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
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AJ, you put it in an easy to understand explanation. Thanks.
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 07:37
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aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
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Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Thank James Krieger, who wrote the very clear and thought-provoking blog post from which I drew my explanation.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 08:00
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OregonRose OregonRose is offline
Wag more, bark less.
Posts: 692
 
Plan: Meat.
Stats: 216/149/145 Female 65.5 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_cohn
I think that feeding experiments show that protein, even in healthy people, provokes as sharp an insulin response as carbs


I found this out for myself when I got my new blood glucose/ketone meter back in January, and went through a few days of obsessive self-testing. After a high-protein meal (lean steak, for instance), my blood sugar would quickly drop from its normal high 80s into the mid 60s. This explained to me why I still occasionally have hypoglycemic symptoms despite having been VLC/ZC for the last five years.
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 08:08
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WagsMarie WagsMarie is offline
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Posts: 176
 
Plan: Primal Blueprint
Stats: 230/200.7/165 Female 5'9"
BF:
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Soooo.... By upping my fats more I would end up eating even less to stay within a legit weight loss calorie range. Ugh. Can it be....?
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, Jul-07-12, 08:21
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
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Posts: 10,116
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern California
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Well, I read the blog that AJ pulled his remarks from http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

and what I get from it is that he believes calories still count no matter what we eat. I wonder if I ate 1400 calories of bread what would happen....oh, my diabetes would come back.... I might lose weight, but I would not be healthy. I have to believe that it is not just calories but what the calories are from. I have a problem with diabetes and I have to keep my carbs low to stay out of the diabetes dark hands. Now, I wonder about protein.

Before I started this WOE, I was not eating that many calories, but a ton more carbs and I was on the verge of diabetes meds. Now, Doc says it is virtually gone.

AJ, did I miss something in James Krieger's blog?

+++++
Just re-read Jame Krieger's blog, smoething was nagging at me....

found this paragraph,
Quote:
The fact is that insulin is not this terrible, fat-producing hormone that must be kept as low as possible.~ It is an important hormone for appetite and blood sugar regulation.~ In fact, if you truly wanted to keep insulin as low as possible, then you wouldn’t eat a high protein diet…you would eat a low protein, low carbohydrate, high fat diet.~ However, I don’t see anybody~recommending that.


Ummmm, low carb, low protein, high fat is talked about and recommended. http://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb-winning-in-sweden

Last edited by Aradasky : Sat, Jul-07-12 at 08:56. Reason: re-read james Krieger's blog and added link to Swedish Diet
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