I do really love my meat, as many of you on this forum clearly do as well.

And I agree with the people who say that our bodies are made for the consumption of both meat and vegetables.

However, I have real problems with the WAY in which meat (including chickens and fish) is produced. In order to keep meat inexpensive, meat must be intensively farmed, with animals not given very much space to graze.

They are also fed very low quality feed in order to keep production costs and therefore prices down. In the UK, cows were being fed feed that contained matter from the brains and spinal cords of other cows - waste products from the meat production system. This resulted in the development of what is known as mad cow disease and the human varient, CJD.

Recently, a case of mad cow disease was reported in Canada. The US has yet to have a reported case of mad cow disease, but routine testing is much less stringent in the US than it is in the UK (for example).

Although I am a committed omnivore, I do think that it is immoral to treat animals like they are any other commodity - like tennis shoes or paper - just another product to be produced and marketed. To do so, in my opinion, degrades human beings in equal measure to how it degrades the animals.

I also think it is unsafe - consuming the flesh of diseased, mistreated, medicated or genetically modified animals seems to me to be taking a real risk with our food supply. A hypothesis which is borne out by the tragedy of CJD.

The solution, of course, is to insist that all meat be produced in accordance with organic standards - in the way that meat WAS produced by family farms, before the industrialisation of farming. Unfortunately, that means that meat would get a lot more expensive.

I TRY to buy organic meat (this is widely available in the UK, less so in the States), but by the end of the month, I've run out of the extra money to do this and eat regular old beef and chicken, knowing that the animal that I'm consuming was crammed into a tiny pen, indoors, fed animal food mix that probably contains animal remnants, given injections of antibiotics to keep him from becoming diseased in the cramped, unhygenic conditions he is living.

I read a lot of PETA bashing on this board and a general gung-ho carnivore spirit. I understand this, but I would also pose the question -

If we are going to have diets based around plant and animal products, shouldn't we be concerned about the quality of our food supply? And shouldn't we also be concerned about the treatment of the creatures which form the basis of our diets.

Just because we eat them doesn't mean we shouldn't respect them.

I remember seeing, about ten years ago, a newspaper (Montana or Wyoming) editorial that had been written at the turn of the century (1900AD). The writer, who explained that he was the son of a cattle rancher, lamented that they, as a people, were getting too far removed from their meat because they didn't kill it and butcher it themselves. He said that just a generation ago, everyone in the family knew how to butcher a cow, but kids these (those) days weren't being taught this essential art. Essential to living, he said, and not because he was also lamenting the coming of butchers and meat sellers into the territory. He argued that without butchering your own cow, you couldn't be a real person.

He thought that not knowing exactly where your meat was coming from was disgusting and dehumanizing, and that some wicked ranchers in the area were actually feeding their animals beans and corn during the weeks before slaughter just to fatten them up! He considered this the apex of evil and decit.

I've seen estimates that if all American cattle were grass-fed, the weight available for market would drop to 40 percent of it's current.

I think factory farming is unhealthy and immoral. I also think a vegan diet is unhealthy, and I think PETA is immoral as well.

The question is: How high would your meat bill have to go before you changed your mind on this? Double? Triple?

I think PETA is a bunch of loons. Any group that thinks I shouldn't share my life and my home with a companion animal has nothing to offer me.

On the other hand, I think most farming in the US is ecologically unsound and produces low quality food. Unfortunately, high quality food is really hard to come by in some places, as well as being expensive.

This is a timely thread. I just signed up with Town and Country which is a local Colorado grocery service which provides all free range, no hormones or antibiotics, meat at very reasonable prices. The only catch is you must have a dedicated freezer because they deliver it 6 mos at a time.

I have a number of friends who have used this service for years and have tried samples of their products several times and it's really great. The research I've been able to do indicates that they really are what they say they are, and they have USDA inspectors on site every day, as opposed to most processors who are inspected much less frequently.

As a child, I helped butcher our own meat on my grandparents farm. While I certainly don't have a high respect for cows in particular, because they're fairly stupid animals, I did learn a healthy respect for living creatures and I think mass production farming methods are not only unhealthy and immoral, but tragic.

As a society I think it reflects a generally low respect for living things of any kind, which could greatly explain current newspaper contents.

Batspit

I would love to have access to something like that. I can buy organic meat, but it is EXTREMELY expensive in London.

Caveman - It is a very interesting question re. our tolerance for increased meat prices. I wonder this - the government has been subsidizing grain, sugar, dairy farmers for decades, which has contributed to these foods becoming people's primary source of sustanence.

How about some of this money being redirected to cattle, pig, chicken and fish farmers so that good, wholesome meat can be made affordable for all people? I'm pretty much a free marketeer, but I feel VERY strongly that people should have access to affordable, quality meat.

Lo carbers should feel particularly strongly about this, because we contend that this is a public health issue and that the food the government has been pushing - grains - has contributed to the obesity epidemic.

I agree that we have become too far removed from our source of meat. I think we SHOULD see what abbatoirs are like and undersand what it actually takes to produce high quality healthy meat.

I have a tough time with this.

Yes, we should treat animals much better than we do - including both animals we eat and animals we don't eat. Perhaps I've seen a few too many episodes of Animal Cops (plus my background in being a foster mom for stray/shelter/abandoned animals), but I just can't comprehend how we as a culture can treat animals with such disdain and neglect.

No, I'm not a member of PETA. Even I think they are out of their minds most of the time.

I also come from a long line of Nebraska cattle farmers. (I was raised in NY, but my dad's side of the family are all NE cattle farmers.) And I remember going to the farm on vacations and seeing the cattle roam free on many acres. In my mind, that's the way it should be. Just because we are going to eat them doesn't mean they need to have a miserable life beforehand.

On the other hand, I'm also a woman on a budget. I can't afford to spend the extra money on free range organic meat. I would *LOVE* to, but I'm at the point where I either buy generic chicken and stay on budget or buy free range and miss my car insurance payment. Is it better for me? I'm positive it's not, but if I just flat can't afford it, how do I have another choice?

It's too bad my relatives are now retired from farming or I'd just have them mail me a side of beef

Factory farming is a great representation of the cruelties that have come with industrial modernization. Trust me, I love my meat and am in no way PETA affiliated....But what this farming does to these poor creatures is wrong, no matter how you cut it. The methane pollutes the air around the factories as well. And then there's the hormones and chemicals the animals are pumped full of, that we in turn, eat. I truly wish there was reform in this area (but of course there isn't gonna be, as, IMO, our world is going to hell; but that's not my point--)
How I personally deal with it is by buying the highest quality free range meat products available, regardless of price. And if that price goes up because industry standards have changed, i will happily pay more. (Disclaimer: I am in a situation where the $$$ of my food is not a big financial concern. I know that for many people it is, and they have no choice but to buy less expensive meat. I in no way blame these people for what the meat farming industry has become, but do encourage them to buy other forms of protein, or re-negotiate finances in order to buy healthier meat. That's the point- those factory conditions are NOT sanitary, for the most part, and I don't like to see my friends eating that stuff. And yes, me & S.O. cook dinner at our house for our starving artist friends at least twice a week.)
Factory farming, IMO, is right on par with sweatshops. I try to stay away from both, and encourage people, if they are able to, to do the same.

This isn't something I would change my mind on. The way animals are treated on factory farms is disgusting. The price of meat isn't going to make me think differently. This in no way means I am a supporter of PETA, because they make me want to puke as badly as factory farming does.

Timely post. Seen that what has driven me to low carbing have been health issues that include adrenal fatigue and food intollerances and pretty much all I can eat is meat, fish and vegetables ( no soy, no gluetn, no dairy, no eggs, no gelatine, no nuts, etc). I decided a while back to only eat organic meats and vegetables. I buy all my meat at whole foods here in california and it is all new zealand no antibiotics no hormones grass fed stuff. I have actually found that I am not that hungry these days anyway and that small amounts of this nutritious food satiates me. My bill is about 25% higher than it used to be, but then I get to heal from all these nasty health problems that have been caused by bad food and antibiotic and pollution in the first place. Also I have become aware that many health problems stem from extra estrogen-like hormones in the milk/meat supply. The last thing I need is extra estrogen in my system- it causes all sorts of female problems. And the antibiotics in the meat exacerbate any yeast problems I may have. I do not want to eat anitbiotics every day thank you very much.

I think it is disgusting how we treat not only our animals , but our food supply in general. Big corporations and profit are ruinning the show rather than what is good for people. the general population is pretty much eating poisons every day and, if we do not become conscious with regrads to our food supply, pretty soon all our water and food will be overwhelmingly toxic. The issue of healthfullness of our food supply is a very big deal, IMHO. I think it will become increasingly so , as more and more people become sick from allergies to toxic foods, sick from the side effects of all the junk that is introduced in the food chain, soil, water and air.

One way to make this kind of thing stop is to vote with one's wallet. If people turn to organic meats and the non organic market is no longer as growing in profits, then production trands will change. Just like now so many products are being created that are lower in sugar due to consumer preference for lower carb foods. Change is possible. I have a very low income but I opt for the healthier organic version whenever I can, even if it means eating less. and a vary meat with fish, so to spend less and eat berries + protein smoothies for breakfast. So only one meal a day is generally a meat one. Somehow, i am managing. I am spending more for general food, but then I am not buying any snacks or other rubbish that I used to buy before.

So perhaps a better question for the diehards above: How high would your meat bill have to go for you to become a vegetarian? What if free-range, organic hamburger was $40 a pound, or not available at all?

I would not choose to become a vegetarian, I love meat too much LOL

Something else to think on: There is no such thing as free-range cattle anymore, they all live on some type of farm. Granted said farm could be 1000 acres of pasture, but it is not free-range.

We buy beef from a local cattleman who doesn't use antibiotics, hormones, or other crud and have it processed at a local butcher facility. I endup paying less than $2 per pound for the whole steer!

I am not quite understanding what your question is about caveman. Of course if meat gets beyond what I can afford, i cannot it eat it. But the same goes for a vegetarian: what if vegetables ended up costing $40 a serving, would one still be a vegetarian? Just from a practical point of view, having been very poor in the past - if there is no money, you can only buy what you can afford. But the real point is, healthy food options should be available and affordable in an opulent society such our western world - for both meats, fish and vegetables. Irradiated vegetables devoid of vitamines and minerals are not such a hot option either. Food stores full of checmical prepackaged junk that, in truth is not food at all: is that the best option for human beings to eat just beacuse it is cheap? In a way it is kind of perverse that such food is so cheap, the poor becoming sicker and weaker, as they cannot afford healthy foods.

Our food supply might be abundant, but is going to hell in a hand basket. Man is not ment to eat antibiotics, growth hormone from sick animals that never see the sun or a pasture, fed on grain and dead cattle. If anything mad cow desease should have given us the wake up call on that one. I am English too, by the way, although living in california right now. But I was in the Uk when the mad cow thing started and I think it made lot of us very very aware of what profit driven cattle farming can do. Ever seen a person with CJD? Not pretty. Seeing this sort of thing wakes one up to the reality of inapproprite farming very quickly. First you brain turns to muck, then you loose your memories and personality, then all brain cells start self destructing wiping all consciousness, followed by loss of all motor control, followed by slow neurological and physiological death. Not a nice way to go. And CJD is only one of the health problems that come from factory farmed animals. What about rampant yeast overgrowth caused by the antibiotics, in turn causing leaky gut syndrome, chrones disease and IBS just to mention a few. What about the staggering increase in deseases relative to excessive estrogen-like hormones in women, such as those contained in growth hormone. This kind of meat is only cheap in the short term - are the long term consequences worth it?

All I can say is that it is my choice to spend my money on what I know is healthy for me. As things are now, it ends up being expensive to eat what I need to eat, but I am willing, as far as I can , to pay more for higher qulity food. In a way, I have no option , after spending most of last year crippled by adrenal fatigue, not able nor to walk, work or think, with dizzy spells and cold sweats induced by even walking from one room to another. Healthy organic meats and vegetables are what got me back on track and I have learned a big deal about the value of good organic food in the process. Things like this never interested me before, but debilitating illness can be very educational.

As far as vegetarianism is concerned, been there done that. I was a vegetarian for five years and my health suffered from it, before I realized that I was intolerant to grains, dairly, legumes, soy, etc. My current diet is not ideological. Ideologically I was prone to embrace vegetarianism. But through the above mentioned health issues and testing I realized that my type of body needs very simple foods that include meat and fish. It actually took some ideological adjustment on my behalf to start eating meat again. but it was necessary for "my" body to get well and I am glad I did. I know lots of vegetarians that do fabulously ( my sister in law, my cousin and various friends), but it was never a good option for me, in hindsight. we are not all the same, for a variety of reasons.

Explain more about the nature of your question caveman, as i am not clear about where you are going with it. Do you really think an abundance of cheap toxic meats in the food supply is better than a more lean food machine that produces top quality nutritious animal based food? Or are you saying that meat is bad and vegetarianism is good. If so, from personal experience, i can tell you it is not good for everybody. I know from reading your posts that you are a switched on guy, so i am really curious in your point of view!

Big hugs

I dont think whole foods beef is truly grass fed. according to their web site, they are range fed for at least 2/3's of their life, that means probably that the last 1/3 they are "finished" with something else... what that is, they dont specify, other than to say that there are no animal products included... it's important to know that "organic" beef is not necessarily grass-fed beef....

Mrfreddy is correct. Organic or natural does not mean that the cattle were totally, or ever, grass fed. Almost all cattle start out on grass, but are 'finished' at feed lots where corn is the major food.