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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Aug-28-13, 16:47
Molly B's Avatar
Molly B Molly B is offline
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Posts: 750
 
Plan: General Low-Carb WOE
Stats: 244/189/170 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 74%
Location: North central HOT Florida
Default A thought about no dairy = leg cramps on SBD

Hi everyone. I am doing Atkins now, but did the SBD five years ago and was very successful. One thing I LOVE LOVE LOVE is my milk! So I was happy when I read on SB that we could have milk (lowfat or skim--better than nothing to me) and it if we didn't have our dairy, we could experience leg cramps. Which DID happen to me when I tried to cut back on dairy a few times.

Well now, I'm on day 28 of Atkins. No dairy. Only had 2 tbsp of sour cream this whole time and one glass of milk the first or second day, before I realized milk and dairy was out of the question. Heck, I haven't even hardly eaten any cheese for that matter. And not a lick of yogurt. A couple of 1/3 cups of ricotta a few times, but that is IT.

And guess what? NO LEG CRAMPS!!

I don't understand why???

Does anyone understand this? Why have I not had any leg cramps at all if I've had no dairy? I would LOVE to have some dairy, but I'm avoiding it like the plague.....

just confused about this cramp issue............
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Aug-28-13, 18:17
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 29,969
 
Plan: SBD->atkins twist->paleo
Stats: 274/000/160 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 240%
Location: NYC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly B
Hi everyone. I am doing Atkins now, but did the SBD five years ago and was very successful. One thing I LOVE LOVE LOVE is my milk! So I was happy when I read on SB that we could have milk (lowfat or skim--better than nothing to me) and it if we didn't have our dairy, we could experience leg cramps. Which DID happen to me when I tried to cut back on dairy a few times.

Well now, I'm on day 28 of Atkins. No dairy. Only had 2 tbsp of sour cream this whole time and one glass of milk the first or second day, before I realized milk and dairy was out of the question. Heck, I haven't even hardly eaten any cheese for that matter. And not a lick of yogurt. A couple of 1/3 cups of ricotta a few times, but that is IT.

And guess what? NO LEG CRAMPS!!

I don't understand why???

Does anyone understand this? Why have I not had any leg cramps at all if I've had no dairy? I would LOVE to have some dairy, but I'm avoiding it like the plague.....

just confused about this cramp issue............

I can't answer your question but why not be grateful and move forward with your current plan?
I know that leg cramps have a lot to do with loss of electrolytes and minerals. If you stay hydrated and keep your minerals up, then cramps shouldn't be an issue. It is not about dairy or no dairy.
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  #3   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-13, 11:23
Molly B's Avatar
Molly B Molly B is offline
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Posts: 750
 
Plan: General Low-Carb WOE
Stats: 244/189/170 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 74%
Location: North central HOT Florida
Default

I'm grateful I haven't had any, and I shall move forward with my plan. I was just curious why I had them on SBD and not now. Seems like I ate more on the SBD--grains and carrots and legumes. Just curious. Thanks Judy!
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  #4   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-13, 11:36
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,087
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Here's an idea: Meat is a better source of potassium than milk or fruits and vegetables (except maybe avocado which is an excellent source). It's funny, the vegetable and milk lobbies seems to have the media's ear on vitamins, anti-oxidants, etc., but the truth is there are some essential vitamins that can only be obtained from meat. And if you eat stable fats (i.e., naturally saturated) you decrease your need for anti-oxidants.

If you are supplementing with salt, as recommended by Atkins, but not with SBD, you are also helping to keep your potassium and magnesium at optimal levels. Magnesium also plays a big role in preventing cramps, which mainstream health advice seldom mentions.

I cannot recommend highly enough Phinney and Volek's The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance. It explores this way of eating from so many angles and will give you a good overall idea of the myriad health benefits. It has a whole section on avoiding cramps. It will also give you a framework into which you can plug all the tidbits gleaned on this website (and others).

Last edited by Liz53 : Sat, Sep-07-13 at 13:35.
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  #5   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-13, 12:11
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
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Default

Take a look at the thread on salt in my signature. The usual culprits are minerals like magnesium, potassium, sometimes calcium, but the key is salt. If you don't have enough salt those minerals will get flushed away. Salt gives your body kidney velcro, so to speak, so that the minerals will be reused instead of flushed down the toilet. Low carb diets tend to flush the salt out of your system, so make sure you replace it.

I usually find that a quick fix of potassium, magnesium, and salt gets the cramps squared away.
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  #6   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-13, 13:27
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/169/150 Female 67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly B
I'm grateful I haven't had any, and I shall move forward with my plan. I was just curious why I had them on SBD and not now. Seems like I ate more on the SBD--grains and carrots and legumes. Just curious. Thanks Judy!


Grains and legumes can actually block the absorption of many nutrients, including vital minerals. Phytates block calcium; so conventional wisdom tells us to eat grains and drink a lot of milk!

Last edited by WereBear : Sat, Sep-07-13 at 13:34.
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-13, 13:39
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,087
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

One other thing, Atkins has a much longer history than South Beach. If you read the intro to SBD, you find Agatson mined the literature on low carb and found that it works to improve cardiac and blood sugar markers and health, but he could not get his head around all the fat, especially saturated fat.

So, he set out to "improve" on it and the result is South Beach - what if his "improvements", including low fat milk, legumes and grains, are really detriments rather than improvements?
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  #8   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-13, 07:00
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
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Posts: 29,969
 
Plan: SBD->atkins twist->paleo
Stats: 274/000/160 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 240%
Location: NYC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
One other thing, Atkins has a much longer history than South Beach. If you read the intro to SBD, you find Agatson mined the literature on low carb and found that it works to improve cardiac and blood sugar markers and health, but he could not get his head around all the fat, especially saturated fat.

So, he set out to "improve" on it and the result is South Beach - what if his "improvements", including low fat milk, legumes and grains, are really detriments rather than improvements?


Yes, I tend to agree with you, Liz. SBD was for me, a gateway to eating in a controlled carb way. I still see it that way now and I didn't for a long time when I started. Part of the reason why it is low fat is that he worked with nutritionists to create it and we all know what 'they' say. His credentials gave it credibility in the medical community.
The low fat aspect of it is actually, IMO, more to do with keeping it lower fat when we raise carb levels. You can't eat higher fat and raise carbs(still be low carb) and still see weight loss. That's been my experience anyway.
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  #9   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-13, 07:54
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,087
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judynyc
Part of the reason why it is low fat is that he worked with nutritionists to create it and we all know what 'they' say. His credentials gave it credibility in the medical community.


This is so true. I felt a real disconnect between his introduction and the recipes in the book. He talks about replacing carbs with fat to stabilize blood sugar, and yet the recipes are filled with low fat substitutes. My take on it was that he wanted to sub the saturated fat in dairy products and meat with "healthier" olive oil and other monounsaturated fats, so he advises low fat foods, then adds a small amount of fat back in. Still, I remember when I started SBD I was eating much more fat, especially saturated fats, than I had been before.

His credentials have everything to do with why I ever began Low Carb - my doctor recommended SBD. It took Gary Taubes to convince me that Atkins might be credible. The switch was right for me, but I still think SBD is a basically sound plan and a huge improvement over the SAD.
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  #10   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-13, 08:17
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/169/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 73%
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
His credentials have everything to do with why I ever began Low Carb - my doctor recommended SBD. It took Gary Taubes to convince me that Atkins might be credible. The switch was right for me, but I still think SBD is a basically sound plan and a huge improvement over the SAD.


I regard South Beach as an excellent "gateway drug" to get into low carb.
  • He's a cardiologist!
  • You can still have grains and potatoes and beans!
  • It's "healthy" fats!

Sort of "low carb with training wheels."

Still, I'm one of those people who works best with lower carb, higher fat. I started with Atkins, which turns out to be an excellent plan for someone like me. Climbing the carb ladder taught me I can get to Rung 5, but no higher. Yet, higher rungs is what SBD relies upon!


1 - More salad and other vegetables
2 - Fresh cheeses (as well as more aged cheese)
3 - Nuts and Seeds
4 - Berries, then melons
5 - Dry wine (and other spirits low in carbs)
6 - Legumes
7 - Other Fruits
8 - Starchy vegetables
9 - Whole grains

One has to realize that as the carb levels rise on SBD, and if we start having trouble, it means this hybrid diet is still too high in carbs. SBD doesn't offer an escape hatch backwards into still lower carb... people who think they must have beans and wheat to "eat healthy" could get tripped up that way.
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  #11   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-13, 09:04
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,087
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

I agree with you, WereBear, that the carb ladder is one of the things that makes Atkins superior to SBD - it allows you to slowly tentatively try new foods and figure out which ones work for you personally. And it allows/encourages you to back DOWN the ladder if need be.

One's success on SBD long-term probably has to do with the degree of insulin resistance, and how much of those higher carb foods you try to eat. I never got the impression that everyone would be able to increase their carbs significantly. I learned quickly that grains and legumes were not a good fit for me; giving up starchy veggies was never a problem. Agatson suggests that one gradually tries increasing carbs "till one stops losing" but he unfortunately doesn't include the support of the carb ladder with its tested sequence of how to add carbs (though that sequence does seem to change with each major rewrite of Atkins).

Anyway, I think we are all in agreement: South Beach is a good intro to Low Carb and Atkins is the Gold Standard.
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-13, 09:59
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,136
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judynyc
Part of the reason why it is low fat is that he worked with nutritionists to create it and we all know what 'they' say. His credentials gave it credibility in the medical community.

Funny thing is, both he and Atkins are cardiologists.
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  #13   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-13, 15:06
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 29,969
 
Plan: SBD->atkins twist->paleo
Stats: 274/000/160 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 240%
Location: NYC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Funny thing is, both he and Atkins are cardiologists.

Yes, but we all know that Agatson is/was more concerned with having his plan be accepted by nutritionists and other MDs. As long as the low fat dogma exists, the issue of being politically correct will persist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werebear
I regard South Beach as an excellent "gateway drug" to get into low carb.


I used the word gateway and I think that it applies nicely to the way I see this. But "gateway drug"? Really?
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  #14   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-13, 16:52
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 9,529
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/169/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 73%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judynyc
I used the word gateway and I think that it applies nicely to the way I see this. But "gateway drug"? Really?


I use a lot of sarcasm and it doesn't come across in print!
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  #15   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-13, 19:57
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 29,969
 
Plan: SBD->atkins twist->paleo
Stats: 274/000/160 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 240%
Location: NYC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I use a lot of sarcasm and it doesn't come across in print!

Was your sarcasm a means of mocking me?
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