Hey, Capo. It is not just brisket that doesn't have A or D in it. Usually any common cut of meat you might purchase from the market or grocery does not contain A or D, for example, turkey thighs, pork chops, beef cuts such as chuck roast, ny strip, etc. Organ meats will contain good amounts of A and a little D, but usually aren't chock-full of D, to my knowledge. This is not to say that it is not full of other very valuable nutrients.

What is your major form of calcium, Capo? If you are only getting a little bone broth every now and then, I would think that there is a good chance that you probably are not getting enough on a daily basis, which could prove to be counterproductive with your skeletal growth goals. Vitamins A & D do increase growth factors, but they are only pieces in the puzzle to skeletal growth & maintenance - without adequate calcium and magnesium daily, there won't be enough for your body to work with to optimize your skeletal remodeling and maintenance over time.

The Weston Price foundation has a lot of information that repeatedly communicates that traditional diets had excellent intakes of calcium daily - much higher than the average american. Are you eating fish bones, like sardines?

Jayppers, I'm aware that liver is a high source of vitamin A and other essential nutrients as well. I think the five egg yolks I eat in the morning have a lot of phosphorus, vitamin E, and other nutrients in them; I eat liver a few times a week, which is good for vitamin A, (actually, I'm thinking of having some liver again tonight since I haven't had any in two days), and as for eating sardines, I'm holding off on that because I'm slightly worried about the chances of getting aluminum in my body from the aluminum tins the sardines come in. I need to make some more beef broth because I'm out of it. I was also wondering if the bones are edible and if I should eat them (because I feed them to my dog).

As for cod liver oil, I avoid it if I get out in the sun for an hour or two during the day, and just take 1 tsp in the morning that way, and if I don't get any sun that day (which would probably be two days out of the week or less), I take more, like 3-4 tsp (which provides 30,000-40,000 IU Vit. A, and 3K-4K Vit. D.

I really have noticed a difference in my face though. I can't even notice an underbite anymore. I wish my chin would grow out or something though, because for some odd reason there's a prominent muscle under my jaw, making me look kind of funny from the side. When I suck my tongue on the front back of my upper teeth, it blends with my jaw, but when I don't it's just there, making me look funny. I think it's due to more cartilage/fat build-up on my chin, so it doesn't really blend well with my chin or "underjaw."

Have you had this issue? Hopefully it will go away.

hey guys congrats alot to capo on the growing.. see you're already growing and its not even been a year!
i have some questions and am in need of advice if anyone kind can help out..
i repeat this alot, but i am doing pretty much no carb all meat carnivore diet, lots of fish, meat, some eggs. i was eating raw dairy as well but i cut that out. i added in eggs, as what is so interesting/exciting i found out today eggs are an excellent source of both Vitamins A & D. each of my eggs has 8% Vitamin A and a little less Vitamin D, and i guess egg manufacturers vary for the vitamin amounts mine is 8% vitamin A.
so i added in eggs, i eat some grassfed beef, mainly fish and shellfish as main foods.
my question is, im building and maintaining muscle mass, lots of it, i want to gain a lot more, and i think i need some type of carby food for that, as i hear its hard to gain muscle eating no carb. My question is if i keep this 0 carb diet im on, and just add in a bunch of berries as my carb source would the carbs from the fruit/berries help in me gaining weight? i look at it this way, if i need some carbs to help build muscle, i'd rather get the carbs from fruits than from potatoes or such.
so if i can eat a pretty sizable amount of carbs from fruit daily >50g if need be, will these carbs help with my muscle gaining?

2nd question, about bone broths. today at the market the market was selling a bunch of bones wrapped up for sale, called marrow bones. these are what you use to make bone broths correct? if someone has the time and patience, can you help me out in making a bone broth and if these bone broths have good fat soluble vitamins A and D in them, or something else important? im guessing i buy the bones and just boil them for a bunch of hours, i dunno some advice would be greatly appreciated...

i get my fat soluble vitamins A & D from my fish, beef liver, shellfish, and eggs. nothing else really has lots of those vitamins besides raw dairy and i avoid dairy.

I can't say I'm sure if I've had the issue you are experiencing - it is sort of difficult to imagine what you described without a photo or illustration.

Sounds good to me about your sub exposure and your CLO intake. I think it is good that you are sticking to at least 1 teaspoon of your high-vitamin CLO each day, regardless of whether you get sun or not. There is not doubt you are getting plenty of vitamin A.

I can understand your concern for aluminum, but every once in a while I don't think will impose any terrible risks to your health in the grand scheme of things considering all of the other health building changes you've made to your diet and lifestyle.

i forgot to add now since i cut out dairy i have no source of fat. i eat fatty fish, but thats not enough fat in my opinion. i eat eggs too, but still not sure if there is enough fat there. crap there is so little options

Hey, meatzrus.

Try to resist the brainwashing that goes around saying that you must eat carbs to gain muscle and mass - it is a myth and a lie that is continually spread around. Quite simply, carbohydrates and fruits do not provide the components that build muscle, meat does.

Here is an excerpt from a weight lifter and 100% carnivore, theBear:

"Anyway the weights were HARD work at first, (and boy, were my joints and muscles sore!) but the results were fantastic. After the first few months had passed I felt great, better than I had in years. I had all sorts of people tell me things like: "you can't grow muscles after 40" (a doctor said this!). "Don't push yourself too hard, you're not a kid anymore." Then there were the guys who for some indecipherable reason were convinced that you couldn't possibly grow any muscles if you didn't eat a lot of carbs (they were fat, of course - well muscled, but fat). When I started to grow more muscles than I had ever in my life had, and pretty quickly at that, the voices were silent. I cannot understand why a muscle, which is almost purely protein, should need carbohydrates to grow, and in fact it doesn't. It does, however need fats, so if there isn't enough of them you are in trouble. Straight protein (no carbs, no fat) is not good for you, and in fact can prove quite toxic. I recommend no more than 5 grams a day of carbs, more than that seems to defeat the fat-burning stimulation of the diet."

With regards to bone broths, check this thread out that I started when I was initially going no-carb - I was a newbie at broths at once myself. I included pictures from my first few experiences - hope this helps!

Also, check out the web about bone broths, there are lots of resources, especially the westonaprice.org website. "Stock contains minerals in a form the body can absorb easily—not just calcium but also magnesium, phosphorus, silicon, sulphur and trace minerals. It contains the broken down material from cartilage and tendons--stuff like chondroitin sulphates and glucosamine, now sold as expensive supplements for arthritis and joint pain."

I'm not completely certain, but I'm pretty sure broths don't supply much vitamin A and D, but as quoted above, they do provide a lot of other excellent nutrients/minerals commonly overlooked. I've also found it is a great way to add supplemental fat to your diet, which may be of benefit to you since you cut out dairy (I've replaced with simple suet).

Hope this helps!

There are actually lots of options. Go to the grocery store and pick up some wrapped suet and just cook it along with your other meats. Suet is pure beef fat. I use it as my supplemental fat and it works quite well.

You could also try coconut oil (which is almost pure saturated fat), but it is from a plant source, and I just recently gave it up because I've found that it causes me loose stools (it has a laxative effect in some when eatin in larger quantities).

Additionally, see the note I posted about bone broths, above - they can also be a source of supplemental fat for you. In addition, you could also get pork fat from your butcher and learn how to render it into lard.

Eggs are quite high in fat, so they will work well as a supplemental fat source if enough are eaten, IMO. I think you're probably getting more fat than you think, just make sure you're eating fatty fish and also getting some good fatty beef along with it, as beef (esp. chuck, etc.) is much higher in fat than a cut of fish.

Don't panic, I'm sure you're doing OK.

thank you so much jayppers your posts always help me find the right path, ha. everythings going to shit pretty much, well almost. (edit, wow, that needs to be read the Right way, meaning everything feels like crap im not good at this WOE, i need to get it perfected, we're all living off muscle meats thinking we're living like our ancestors when the muscle meat was the least wanted meat, it was usually discarded, this is all so confusing) i added back in dairy because im trying to gain weight!?!?!?!??!? and all this calorie reduction crap is making me lose my hard earned muscle. im thin already, with some nice definition, and how am i supposed to keep that up eating a couple steaks and meat everyday?!?!? it would never happen...i would be a stick.
but i have this strange problem with raw dairy. does raw milk leave white on anyone else's tongue? this is primarily the reason i was going to drop the dairy, after i drink a cup of raw milk my tongue is white and it doesn't scrape off with a tongue scraper, = nasty breath not good..
im not about to stop eating a whole food group just because its leaving whiteness on my tongue, ha. any ideas or suggestions? does this happen to anyone else?

This is true in one sense, Jayppers, because a person can build muscle just fine w/o carbohydrates, but I think it depends upon the intensity of the training and also the metabolism of the individual.

Anthony Colpo (The Great Cholesterol Con author) does intense exercise and has found that his type of training can't be sustained w/o a certain amount of carbs. He said that he was zero-carb, high-fat for a couple of months, training all along w/o problems in ketosis, when all of the sudden he felt truly exhausted on a bike ride. He thought it was just a phase, but it lasted long enough for him to determine that he couldn't sustain his high-intensity workouts w/o carbs.

As for theBear, if you read over his words, you'll find that he takes two-three days off between workouts (three is better, he says) -- his recovery time is different than folks who still consume carbs, like Colpo. Different goals for different folks.

There are plenty of advocates out there who say that 70-80 grams carbs are a good limitation to daily carb consumption, w/ maybe a "carb-up" every now and again to replenish glycogen stores (usually w/ carbs eaten shortly before and after a workout). Greg Ellis is one name that comes to mind, along w/ Colpo.

What they all have in common is the belief that meat and fat are the best, most nutrient-dense body-building foods out there. And that carbs should be kept low.

meatzrus -- you're still a teenager, correct? And you have no digestive issues? Then adding carbs into your diet should be fine and may help you maintain your muscle mass better. But if you want to experiment w/ a very-low-carb or zero-carb diet, you may need to allow for an adjustment period, as well as have a good fat source constantly at hand so that protein is spared.

It took me a very short time (after beginning a good digestive supplement regimen) to begin to gain weight on a low-carb diet (80 g/day). I gained 25 lbs. very quickly. Maybe my hormones finally were kicking into gear and aiding muscle growth?

Life Without Bread, as recommended by Jayppers, is a 72g carbs/day meat & fat diet. It describes a client of Dr. Lutz's (the author) who was very skinny for quite some time. Then the client adopted low-carb nutrition, eating 150-200g of butter in addition to fatty meats of all kinds. He gained healthy weight back and looked like a completely different person.

Lutz says repeatedly throughout the book that, in order to be successful on a low-carb diet, a person must replace the missing carbohydrates w/ fat. I'm not sure if he means gram for gram or just calorically -- but the point is to develop your "fat tooth" and to not overdo the protein.

Yes im a teenager - I am determining if my fat intake is sufficient, if i eat hamburgers that are 15% fat a couple a day plus alot of eggs would this be enough fat?
i dont get eggs, i question if they are really paleo, yet as i stopped consuming dairy eggs are the really only good source of fat for me,plus the fat in the burgers, oh ya plus the fatty fish i consume daily and some liver.

Lets crunch some numbers (I'll guess your food portions here -- you probably eat more, but maybe the proportions of the food is about the same):

1/2 lb. 15% fat ground beef = 40g protein/36g fat (37% protein; 63% fat)

8 eggs = 50g protein/40g fat (36% protein; 64% fat)

4 oz salmon = 27g protein/7g fat (62% protein; 38% fat)

2 oz liver = 11g protein/2g fat/3g carbs (58% protein;26% fat;16% carb)

TOTALS:
Protein 125g (39% calories)
Fat 85g (59% calories)
Carbs 8g -- according to Fitday (2% calories)

So, maybe you're eating about 60% fat calories in your diet, which works okay for some folks on a zero-carb diet. But you're young, and I would suggest that add more fat to further spare muscle protein and account for your metabolism and activity levels.

Fat = energy. Very little protein is needed (according to most sources) to build and maintain muscle mass. It's fat and carbs that spare muscle loss -- protein simply builds muscle. Do some research on how much protein is suggested for your weight and try to get your fat calories up to 80% of your diet (if this feels good to you). This probably would require searing meat in tallow and eating more yolks than whites or buying fattier ground beef, etc.

theBear (zero-carber) ate 70-80% fat calories during his youth, but has since reduced his fat intake to become even more lean. I think he's somewhere between 50-60% nowadays.

Also, consider eating some carbs if all else fails (maybe 80g a day); you may be surprised at the muscle growth you achieve this way. I can see from personal experience why many folks recommend this type of low-carb regime -- the muscle growth just seems to be easier.

Let us know how it goes, meatzrus!

I keep becoming confused with eating. i don't even know if eggs were eaten paleolithic how would they of heated the egg? and if the egg white is so bad how would the natives have known to remove just the white part doesnt make sense..i need to add more fat from I don't know where. It's hard to imitate pre-civilization eating styles because only muscle meats are sold in markets and some organs like liver. the only saturated fat available is refined and heated not how natives would've eaten it. im lost at what to do and what to eat.. if i need to eat carbs what foods would be the best sources to get carbs from if carbs are really needed..

meatzrus, it doesn't seem like you are thoroughly reviewing the posts that I and other members have posted in replies to your concerns. I would encourage you to re-read some of the previous posts from me and the other members.

First of all, who said that our paleolithic ancestors heated their eggs? You need to understand that it is not cooked egg whites that are necessarily bad, but the raw whites. Eggs are an incredibly valuable food for humans - just eat them, unless you have a sensitivity or allergy. Our paleolithic ancestors would certainly have eaten eggs if they stumbled upon them - they are a very nutrient dense food!

You say you are still baffled as to where to obtain extra fat, but again, it seems like you are overlooking or not thoroughly reviewing some of the previous posts I and others have taken our personal time to help support you with. In one recent previous post I enumerated through a number of different options from where you could obtain additional fat. And markets/grocers do not just sell muscle meats and organs like liver - many I know of sell beef suet, marrow bones, and pork lard.

I think you are trying unrealistically to replicate a completely paleolithic diet. Don't get too caught up in the details. Unless you are out living in the wild and hunting your prey, it is not really possible to imitate pre-civilization eating styles 100%, but you can certainly come very close. We live in civilization, you can't really avoid that very easily. Natives and our paleolithic ancestors would not have passed up fatty muscle meat - there is nothing wrong with eating this! I've said over and over again that you can purchase fatty chuck beef, etc. which is PLENTY fatty and in my opinion usually doesn't require much supplemental fat at all!

Just eat animal products that you like, buy fatty cuts of meat and some supplemental fat to add here and there and enjoy it! Don't let it become more of a stressor than a source of enjoyment. If it is stressing you out so much, it probably isn't healthy for you in the long run to force yourself into a way of eating that you don't enjoy and cannot practice without experiencing high levels of anxiety.

Eat, drink, and be merry!

I have nothing to add to this thread, I just checked in because Jayppers has such an adorable avatar.

Carry on,

Kay

Aww, thanks Tarheel!