Well, are there examples of fruit allergies occurring in humans that have been eating only "natural" food, and not standard american, european etc. diets? Protein also causes rise in insulin (isolated protein causes just as big rise in insulin as isolated sugar when eaten in same amounts), atleast when it is eaten in big amounts, though there's something about insulin to glucagon ratio, that it would be much better with protein, but I don't understand anything about it. But well.. how big rise in insulin would something like 200g of wild berries, say bilberries, cause? They have about 6,4g of sugars per 100g of berries, here's something in finnish http://www.fineli.fi/food.php?foodid=442&lang=fi . I don't think most people eat fruits for calories, but rather for nutrition in them (and it's good, as most people are not eating glands, organs, organ fats etc.. and not eating fresh/raw animal products).



Ok, didn't know that. Yeah, probably they are significant amounts, atleast when living in good environment and not eating processed foods.



Sweetbreads are thymus glands. Adrenal glands are located somewhere near kidneys.



Yeah, it would be truly nice. But what you gonna do.. would it even be healthy today, as there's so much environmental toxins around..

Edit: whoops, sorry, here's some translations for the finnish page about bilberries:

rasva=fat
proteiini=protein (hehheh.. pretty obvious)
hiilihydraatti=carbohydrate

The percentages in up-right corner are E-%.

Well.. I provided that link mostly just to show that I didn't get that 6,4g just from my head.. so that's probably enough.

Meatzrus, sorry for hijacking your thread. Would you like us to start another thread? Let us know. I'm a geek, so I find this stuff interesting. What can I say?


Forefather, you are totally out there. I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't already know. Not many people would go to the extent you seem to in order to recreate the paleolithic lifestyle. I think we are just coming from two different ideological spectrums. That's the only way I can make sense of the vastly different interpretations of the "facts".

I do concede some points of detail. I didn't know about the content of vit. C in some animals' organ meats. That doesn't seem prevalent enough to sustain the species, but for those who had access, perhaps that was sufficient. Also perhaps the latter part of the paleolithic era provided the conditions for the neolithic era, justifying what you call "proto" neolithic. Nonetheless, they ate very differently. The late paleolithic man was 4" taller on average than the early neolithic man.

But overall, we just have to agree to disagree. Asian cultures eat primarily meat? I've never heard anyone characterize Asian cuisine this way. In fact, the most recent dietary research done in China, in a book called, The China Study by Cornell researchers showed that there are populations in China that are mostly vegan, and that they were some of the healthiest people in the world. I disagree with their findings, but at the same time, it would be totally incorrect to say Asians eat mostly meat. I've been to Korea and China, and in neither places did I eat in the way you describe. Koreans eat very little pork, some beef, but traditionally cattle is scarce. In both Chinese and Korean cuisine, all dishes are served together, and the dishes are preponderantly veggies. Rice is the main dish. If there's meat, it is served along with the rice and veggies.

I maintain that the essential characteristic of the paleo diet is its diversity. That's the main difference between the paleo and neolithic eras. You went from eating 100 items a day to eating 90% of a single item, usually a grain, a day. That spelled disaster, inaugurating all the modern diseases. As I said, research shows that paleo people ate a lot of plant foods, including lots of greens. 3% is enough to cause a species change. So it's major, but there's no way it's enough to change the basic fabric of our make-up. 3% is not gonna change a cow to eat meat.

Also, in regards to your views on women, well good luck to you if you can find someone who shares them.

Lucysdream,

Animal sources of C certainly were enough for some people, atleast for Polar Eskimos/Inuits (I'm not sure how they should be called), as they ate only animal products (as far as I know they didn't even eat stomach content of veggie eating animals) for most time of the year.

Could you suggest any good book on paleolithic peoples' dietary habits? Some from the scientific side.. haven't yet found any. Maybe they don't exist.. it doesn't have to just about dietary habits of course.

Lucysdream,

The China Study was a hack job done by a pro-vegan group. The book misused the data and reached conclusions that were not supported. http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/chinastudy.html

To understand how Campbells' 'philosophy' rather than science affects his conclusions, read this debate between Campbell and Cordain.

I don't want to offend anyone either, and I'm not really gonna push the socio-ethical topic here, but in response to Forefather:

I believe there's a higher point to life than just living and reproducing. Donating my life, or anyone's life, to an effort to recreate a paleolithic lifestyle is slightly sad when I consider what I have going for me in my current life: I'm a violinist, so I would have that taken from me, as well as my guitar; there would be no orchestra/ quartet in nature. And music is a great joy to me as well as others who hear my music. There would be no church (unless you take a bible along with you), no seeing or hearing other cultures (just your own), no traveling other than where you could walk/migrate to, no schools, no higher aspirations, no freedom of choice of lifestyle (I mean, no everyone wants to be a housewife or get married and have kids..seriously), no vacationing to the bahamas, no sailing, no modern conveniences (washing machine, dryer, stove, bicycle, heater, air-conditioner, humidifier, dehumidifier, etc..).

So, not to get off topic, but living in nature would be a fun experience, but not for a permanent lifestyle change, for me at least.

And back on topic, I read on Weston Price's site that the Japanese diet consists of about 50% fish, 50% rice and veggies; you also have to take into account that the Japanese are a lot smaller in stature than typical westerners.
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditi...iets/japan.html

I'm going to try the poo-free advice and just use baking soda and apple vinegar every three days.

kallyn, I notice I don't really smell bad if I don't use the aluminum/titanium underarm deodorant; perhaps it's better not to use it at all. But I still wouldn't go back to using it; perhaps there's an organic underarm deodorant that's both hypoallergenic and free of toxic chemical compounds.

Lucysdream, I'll see if I can get my mom to let me try using your recommended method of washing clothes. Does it ruin the clothes or bleach them?

Capo, your kidneys are not located in your lower back, but in the upper part of the back just beneath the rib cage. Your right kidney is located just below the liver and your left kidney just below the diaphragm and near the spleen, so if you were experiencing lower back pain, it likely was not your kidneys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney

Jkk, I haven't read a book on this topic. I've gleaned info. from the internet and conversations. If you haven't already, check out http://www.paleodiet.com/ for an extensive links page to articles about paleolithic eating habits. Also www.beyondveg.com. I actually found the link to this forum through paleodiet.com. I also studied some biology in college, so I have a solid understanding of evolutionary theory.

Dodger, thank you for the links. I welcome any articles refuting the China Study. I also think it is flawed in many ways. My point in bringing it up was a very narrow point that it's an example that the chinese diet is not primarily based in meat.

Hey, Lucysdream. I'm not an advocate of Wai's diet and I don't necessarily agree with everything presented here, but I've always found this page interesting -- We Don't Need to Consume Plants

Happy reading! Take care,

Jayppers -- interesting link. Thanks!

Okay, about this veggie debate ...

I believe personal experience is the ultimate in finding any sort of truth, and I have eaten primarily fatty animal foods for over a year now. I am the healthiest I've ever been in my entire life. Every time I try to reincorporate veggies into my diet, I feel like I'm eating cardboard. The only food from the vegetable kingdom that makes sense to eat raw and unprocessed is certain ripe fruits, IMO.

One thing I'd like folks to consider is that native peoples often processed and concentrated plant foods until they no longer resembled the plant in its fresh state. They made syrups, infusions, well-cooked stews, etc. No primitive person in their right mind would consume any significant amount of raw plant foods, aside from occasional berries and ripe tropical fruits in some locations (berries were usually picked and processed into concentrated syrups).

It can't be denied that HG's processed the heck out of fibrous, toxic plants to make them edible. The human body can ferment plants to extract nutrients -- the products of this process is similar to gorillas: farting and bloating. But this ain't too comfortable! Primitive folks knew this and so devised methods to get around it.

Now for some personal experience: I have tried (in my vegetarian days) to eat raw, wild edible plants during survival trips or just around town believing them to be powerhouses of nutrition -- boy, did I learn! I found not a single edible wild plant here in the desert southwest (AZ) that does not somehow repulse the tastebuds when eaten raw in even small amounts. You definitely can't pick wild greens and make a salad from them! One exception to this is young, tender greens during the certain times of year -- this supply is very limited.

So, to say that primitive folks were eating big salads daily and pounds and pounds of raw veggies throughout the year is ... you guessed it: Malarky!

Wild edible plants require processing to extract the small amount of nutrition they offer. For plant nutrition: Why not just drink some yerba mate or nettles tea, instead? Or eat a little fruit here and there?

OK, update: I know I'm growing, as in bones growing, because I had that aching feeling that comes around when your bones grow last night pretty much all over my body: my wrist, palms, forearm, elbow, tibia/fibula, ankles, feet, and even a couple areas in my spine and a few spots on my temple/ forehead/ orbital(eye) area.. I swear my arm looks longer..but I wasn't taking barely any cod liver oil yesterday: just one teaspoon (which is 1000 IU Vitamin D and like 10000 IU Vitamin A, and I was inside all day in my classes from sunrise to sundown, so the option of getting any vitamin D from the sun was minimal.

Just out of curiosity, I measured my height this morning, and it seems I grew 5-7 mm! I checked more than once, and verified that I actually grew. The thing I don't get is in most cases, the fibula/tibia stops growing before the femur, so it doesn't make much sense that my leg would be growing whilst my thigh wasn't.

And of course, this could all be attributed to my particular growth stage, but for all the bones I listed to be growing all at once is kind of miraculous and seems to go beyond a 'normal' growth stage.

Since I did everything normal yesterday (went to classes all day, didn't get that much cod liver oil, and even ran up and down stairs for three minutes as part of a bio lab), I'm examining what I ate:

Breakfast: 5 egg yolks (white shells this time, not the brown ones), 1 tsp high vit. CLO, maybe a half a cup of homemade beef broth (with the fat/oil still in it), and a couple of bites of fatty meat. *I wasn't particularly hungry because I had a huge dinner of fatty brisket meat the night before.

Lunch: Fatty brisket
Dinner: Fatty brisket

*The bone pains started occurring after my 5PM dinner during my psych class at around 7PM and went on until I fell asleep at 10PM.

I really hate to post my own experiences on this thread again, but I'm 99% sure I grew, and it's either attributed to the fatty brisket (because I ate a lot of it solely the last two days), running up and down stairs for 3 minutes straight (I was really out of breath; I haven't exercised in the 7 months I've been eating a high fat/low carb/moderate protein diet, or the change in eggs, because the white eggs have more vitamins and minerals in them (believe it or not) than the brown stained 'free range' eggs, or it could be my bone growth was a result of all of these things in combination.

I think Forefather was right when he said sunlight and supplements aren't necessary when you're consuming fatty meat and lots of fat from animals (or a cow in this case), because there's a ton of fat soluble vitamins actually in the fat of the cow. So I always go for the fatty meat anyway, because it tastes really good, and it's so good for me. Plus, it keeps you full for much longer.

Has anyone else experienced this? Again, it's very surprising that I would grow, especially in my fibula/tibia (leg), and even in my ulna/radius (arm).

thats good news capo. whats a fatty brisket? what part of the meat is that, a roast?

Here, it's on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisket

It's below the chuck in the front of the cow (like the shoulder of the cow maybe).

They're like $15-20 at the grocery store, and they have a ton of fat on them. It's best to put the meat in a crock pot for 12 hours or so (all day) maybe at night or in the morning, and when you wake up (or when you come home from school), it'll be ready to eat. ..modern conveniences, I couldn't live without them.

It's the fat that's crucial, because it contains a lot of fat soluble vitamins (including A and D), fatty acids, and the meat is good for protein and collagen. So, I hope it works for you and you grow a lot.

I believe you, Capo. I've been reading a very interesting document in regards to the role of vitamins A and D in skeletal maintenance and growth. I think you will be very interested in some of the excerpts from this article. I will e-mail (external) you outside of the forum with this information I've come across.

I think your physcial exertion could play a factor in some of the musculoskeletal aches/pains you were experiencing, especially since you stated that you haven't been exercising regularly in the past 7 months; However, I certainly do not deny the fact that you could have also been experiencing those "growing pains" as well.

I certainly am a proponent of fatty meats, but I do no think that fatty meat alone from a cow is what is responsible for skeletal growth, especially since some of the most important (emphasis on some and most important, I did not say all) nutrients tied to skeletal health are not found in muscle meats (like steaks and brisket) and fat in appreciable quantities (like vitamins A, D, calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus), (but yes to certain degrees, in organ meats); However, this is not to say that meat and saturated fats are not very important factors in encouraing bone health.

As a fellow no-carb. carnivore, I respectfully disagree with Forefather's opinion that sunlight and supplements are not necessary. Here is why: In my educated opinion, even those on a completely carnivorous diet are at risk of being deficient in vitamin D, especially in the fall & winter months, which is a crucial nutrient that needs to accompany vitamin A in order to maintain and promote good skeletal health and growth. I have learned that when consuming large quantities of vitamin A (natural or not) without adequate levels of vitamin D, vit. A can actually be detremental to skeletal health and growth (decreasing bone mineral density and increasing the incidence of fractures, etc.) because retinoic acid activates bone resorption by increasing the number of activity of osteoclasts (in short, bone dissolving), and decreasing the activity of osteoblasts (support bone growth). Vitamin D though (calcitriol, downstream product of D3) works to inhibit bone resorption, indicating that it plays a role in stimulating bone resorption. So, "it isn't vitamin A that contributes to poor skeletal health, but the combination of comparitively high vitamin A and vitamin D deficiency."

A study I recently reviewed stated that men living in Idaho can got through as much as 4,000 IUs of vitamin A a day. So, unless you are obtaining adequate sunlight (which even then you could still not be obtaining adequate amounts given a very many number of factors like latitude, ozone, overcast, UV-B specific exposure, etc.) or supplementing, you may very well not be getting enough. Dr. Eades of Protein Power suggests obtaining levels of upwards to 5,000 IUs per day, especially in the Winter months.

Additionally, obtaining adequate amounts of calcium and magnesium (and phosphorus) is essential, because all of these components (incuding A & D) work synergistically.

Capo, I know you have spoken a lot about obtaining adequate fat and vitamin A, but I am interested to know where your calcium and magnesium intake at? Are you consuming bone broths frequently or are you supplementing in some way? This may be capable of fine-tuning to help maximize your growth.

I have experienced this just last week. I had basically all over body musculoskeletal aches in the AM for several hours. This was relatively soon after increasing my intake of vitamin D3, as well as bone meal powder. I am not totally certain, but I think that this may have been a result of repair from previous deficiencies, but again, I am not completely certain.

I hope this information helps! A lot of this is just my current understanding and I could very well be incorrect on some of the information I cited, but I think it is all pretty accurate, in my opinion. I do not mean to spark any heated debate or offend any others, I just simply wanted to provide my perspective/understanding as I have become more educated on the topic.

Take care everyone!

Capo, there is no vitamin A or D in brisket. Also, brisket is from the chest of the cow:

Brisket - a cut of meat from the breast or lower chest especially of beef

Jayppers, that's really interesting that there's no vitamins A or D in the brisket. I'm not really sure how I had the growing pains then. I'm eating white eggs now instead of the brown colored ones, and there's phosphorus, vitamin E, etc..in it, and yes I have been eating a little bit of bone broths now and then, but yesterday I only had a little in the morning, and most of my diet consisted of the brisket.

Perhaps it could be the exercising..though I only walked up and down stairs for three minutes straight. That's not a lot of exercise, and I felt fatigued afterwards. Besides, the growing pains didn't start to creep up until around 7PM at night while I was in my psych class.


*I also might note that I've developed those semi-darkish areas on my left and right cheeks. I'm not sure if that's my parotid gland or what, but I used to have mild pores (as in deep pockets of a zit or something) where those areas were. I haven't had any zits to speak of for a long time now (probably either due to my diet or puberty being over). I am of Asian decent, and I've read that in darker pigmented people, old zits can turn dark due to excess melanin production where they used to be, and people say to 'protect' the skin from the sun by wearing sunblock or avoiding the sun to minimize the darkening of these areas, but I think that's total BS. I really hope they go away though. Overall, I'm really happy with my skin, because it's not too dry anymore with me not taking baths as often, and probably somewhat due to my diet as well, and my face has matured a lot. I don't practically look like the same person.