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  #826   ^
Old Mon, Mar-12-18, 07:57
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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I should throw in--when Jimmy Moore did his one year experiment, it was easy to point out that it was also a bit of back-door calorie restriction. A limit on daily protein, a limit on daily carbs, and defined macronutrient percentages is impossible to do without effectively limiting calorie consumption, no? I do generally know what my calorie intake is, you really can't track your macros without whatever tracker you're using telling you your calorie count. But as usual when some degree of calorie restriction is sustainable, you still have to ask, why is it sustainable? A lot of the studies in Good Calories Bad Calories weren't about weight loss without a reduction in calorie intake--but rather, studies in which calories were quite low and well tolerated.
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  #827   ^
Old Mon, Mar-12-18, 08:07
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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Of course there's a risk benefit here. The 4:1 diet applied to kids without epilepsy or some other condition with a shown therapeutic benefit would be ridiculous, the risks properly applied might be small, but if there's no benefit to weigh them against, it's not worth it. If sarcopenia is a likely outcome, lower protein makes less sense. Or if somebody has more bodyfat--I didn't get any sort of trouble with binges on low carb foods until I got below a certain body weight, when I weighed 190 I think the diet I eat now would have been pointlessly restrictive vs. a straight Atkins type approach.
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  #828   ^
Old Mon, Mar-12-18, 10:58
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
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THank goodness the endoscrinologiest are speaking up!!!

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Mon, Mar-12-18 at 11:06.
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  #829   ^
Old Wed, Mar-14-18, 17:44
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Joe Rogan interviewed Dr Rhonda Patrick. She has finally embraced fasting after those long interviews with Satchin Panda. Mentions a fasting app if anyone is interested. Note, even black coffee or tea breaks a fast. Water and only water in the time period of fasting. There is a circadian rhythm fast and two other options... For the OCD
https://youtu.be/uxM_CLsvieE

Kevin Rose's Fasting app: https://medium.com/~kevinrose/intro...st-209935e8245d

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Mar-14-18 at 17:49.
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  #830   ^
Old Thu, Mar-15-18, 10:36
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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I think "coffee breaks a fast," is technically true, the person won't be in the same metabolic state as with just water, quite. I think work needs to be done to show that it's a worse metabolic state, or that it's less therapeutic vs. water.

I have noticed some problems with coffee over the longer course. I cycle between fully caffeinated and a blend of caffeinated and decaf, to keep caffeine sensitivity--and I find when I cycle off, my ability to fast pretty much disappears, where cycling up, it increases. This wasn't so obvious to me until I started regularly shifting caffeine up and down, I could see random differences in caffeine intake before I started paying attention as a possible factor in cravings/fasting tolerance varying.
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  #831   ^
Old Sat, Mar-17-18, 04:14
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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On the Boundless Health podcast, new interview with Dr Jason Fung "unbound" on current diabetes treatment.
http://drbretscher.libsyn.com/bh027...fits-of-fasting
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  #832   ^
Old Sat, Mar-17-18, 06:48
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
On the Boundless Health podcast, new interview with Dr Jason Fung "unbound" on current diabetes treatment.
http://drbretscher.libsyn.com/bh027...fits-of-fasting


So many interesting topics there! I wound up getting more than just that episode

Thanks!

Last edited by WereBear : Sun, Mar-18-18 at 04:48.
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  #833   ^
Old Sun, Mar-18-18, 04:23
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Dr Scher (a cardiologist) is a good interviewer, asks open questions, and let's his guests talk away. Put him together with the outspoken Dr Fung and it was a wild ride through the misguided current diabetes treatments.
Dr Fung's previous books didn’t have much PR with them...I would love to see this diabetes book get on mass media shows like Today, GMA, The Doctors, etc. But he used the same obscure Canadian publisher as Obesity code book.

If by "interesting" you mean the Hormones Demystified Doctor...you will not like it, esp. first part

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Mar-18-18 at 12:29.
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  #834   ^
Old Mon, Mar-19-18, 08:30
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80318144831.htm

Quote:
High-energy breakfast promotes weight loss
Diet helps reduce total daily insulin dose for type 2 diabetes


Quote:
In patients with obesity and type 2 diabetes, a meal schedule that includes a high-energy breakfast promotes weight loss, improves diabetes and decreases the need for insulin, new research from Israel reports. The study results will be presented Saturday, March 17, at ENDO 2018, the 100th annual meeting of the Endocrine Society in Chicago, Ill.

"This study shows that, in obese insulin-treated type 2 diabetes patients, a diet with three meals per day, consisting of a big breakfast, average lunch and small dinner, had many rapid and positive effects compared to the traditional diet with six small meals evenly distributed throughout the day: better weight loss, less hunger and better diabetes control while using less insulin," said lead study author Daniela Jakubowicz, M.D., professor of medicine at Tel Aviv University.

"The hour of the day -- when you eat and how frequently you eat -- is more important than what you eat and how many calories you eat," she noted. "Our body metabolism changes throughout the day. A slice of bread consumed at breakfast leads to a lower glucose response and is less fattening than an identical slice of bread consumed in the evening."

Jakubowicz and her colleagues studied 11 women and 18 men who had obesity and type 2 diabetes, being treated with insulin and averaged 69 years of age. The patients were randomly assigned to consume one of two different weight-loss diets, which contained an equal number of daily calories, for three months. One group (Bdiet) ate three meals: a large breakfast, a medium-sized lunch and a small dinner. The second group (6Mdiet) ate the traditional diet for diabetes and weight loss: six small meals evenly spaced throughout the day, including three snacks.

Overall glucose levels and glucose spikes were measured for 14 days at baseline, during the first two weeks on diet, and at the end of the study by continuous glucose monitoring (CGM). Glucose levels were tested every two weeks and insulin dosage was adjusted as needed.

At three months, while the Bdiet group lost 5 kilograms (11 pounds) the 6Mdiet group gained 1.4 kg (3 lb).

Fasting glucose levels decreased 54 mg/dl (from 161 to 107) in the Bdiet group but only 23 mg/dl (from 164 to 141) in the 6Mdiet group. Overall mean glucose levels dropped in the first 14 days by 29 mg/dl (from 167 to 138 mg/dl) and 38 mg/dl (from 167 to 129 mg/dl) after three months in the Bdiet group. Overall mean glucose levels dropped only 9 mg/dl (from 171 to 162 mg/dl) in the first 14 days and only 17 mg/dl (from 171 to 154 mg/dl) in the 6Mdiet group.

Mean glucose levels during sleep dropped only in the Bdiet group, by 24 mg/dl (from 131 to 107), but not in the 6Mdiet group.

The Bdiet group needed significantly less insulin (-20.5 units/day, from 54.7 to 34.8) while the 6Mdiet group needed more insulin (+2.2 units/day, from 67.8 to 70).

Carbohydrate craving and hunger decreased significantly in Bdiet group but increased in the 6Mdiet group.

Importantly, the researchers found a significant reduction of overall glycemia after as little as 14 days on Bdiet, when the participant had almost the same weight as at baseline. This finding suggests that even before weight loss, the change in the meal timing itself has a quick beneficial effect on glucose balance that is further improved by the important weight loss found in the 3M diet.

"A diet with adequate meal timing and frequency has a pivotal role in glucose control and weight loss," Jakubowicz observed.

The Ministry of Health of Israel supported the study.


Another study in the meal timing department. Three meals versus six meals, with more calories early in the day.

I wonder what compliance was like, I wouldn't be surprised if the three meal a day group more successfully complied to the calorie restriction.

There seems to be a law of opposites, if somebody claims one thing, somebody else claims the opposite. You can't throw a rock without hitting somebody who says that insulin resistance is worse in the morning, better not eat then--but then here we have all sorts of evidence that more of the day's food should be in the morning. But I think at least part of this is due to the second meal effect. Eat breakfast, and four to five hours later, you're more insulin sensitive. The further into fasting you get, the smaller this effect gets--so breakfast gives a good second meal effect for lunch, but dinner gives a poor second meal effect for breakfast. Eating this way, you might have your worst glucose of the day at breakfast, but the 24 hour insulin might improve.
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  #835   ^
Old Tue, Mar-20-18, 04:20
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,442
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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How did they decide it was the hour of the day and not just the fact that the 3M group would have a shorter eating window? In Rhonda Patrick's interview above, mice on a 9 hour eating window had more endurance, muscle and other benefits with no changes in food vs longer eating periods. Whatever..at least the Endos are hearing 3 meals better than 6.
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  #836   ^
Old Tue, Mar-20-18, 04:57
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Dr Fung's previous books didn’t have much PR with them...I would love to see this diabetes book get on mass media shows like Today, GMA, The Doctors, etc. But he used the same obscure Canadian publisher as Obesity code book.


Publishing is no longer about finding a fine new book and making a star of its author. Now, they are all about supporting the status quo and promoting the Usual Suspects.

They've fired all their copy editors and publicists; authors are now expected to do all that on their own. Unless they have been in the center of a scandal, especially one with sex in it; then the machinery will crank up.

I can't even watch those morning shows; it's like seeing a bunch of yappy puppies vying for a treat. Only they aren't cute and there is no treat.
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  #837   ^
Old Tue, Mar-20-18, 05:25
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
How did they decide it was the hour of the day and not just the fact that the 3M group would have a shorter eating window? In Rhonda Patrick's interview above, mice on a 9 hour eating window had more endurance, muscle and other benefits with no changes in food vs longer eating periods. Whatever..at least the Endos are hearing 3 meals better than 6.


The group has done earlier tests of the big breakfast, medium lunch,small supper versus small breakfast medium lunch big supper where loading the food earlier in the day worked better.
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  #838   ^
Old Tue, Mar-20-18, 05:34
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Progress: 134%
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Here's the abstract.
http://www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/4482/presentation/6407


And MedPage:

Quote:
ENDO: Big Breakfast May Help in Diabetics
Medium lunch and light dinner reduces insulin needs

CHICAGO – A hearty breakfast, a medium lunch, and a light dinner might be the eating plan that can help diabetics reduce their dependence on insulin, researchers suggested here.

After 3 months on the big breakfast diet, patients who ate a high energy breakfast and had two smaller meals lost 11 pounds and used 20.5 fewer units of insulin a day from what they were using at the start of the trial, while patients who followed one of the traditional diabetes meals -- eating several meals across the day -- gained 3 pounds and used 2.2 more insulin units (P<0.05), reported Daniela Jakubowicz, MD, of the University of Tel Aviv in Israel.

"The hour of the day -- when you eat and how frequently you eat -- is more important that what you eat and how many calories you eat," said Jakubowicz at a press conference at ENDO, the annual meeting of The Endocrine Society. "The meal timing schedule, with a high energy breakfast diet, should be a strategy to improve diabetes control and outcome."

She said patients in the study, 11 women and 18 men, were divided into two groups. They were randomly assigned to eat diets of about 1,600 calories a day – but the big (high-energy) breakfast group had about 800 calories in the morning meal, and then about 550 calories at lunch and about 250 calories as the dinner meal, Jakubowicz told MedPage Today. The other group consumed their food in diets that reflect usual eating patterns -- i.e., a light breakfast, a medium lunch, and a similar dinner, including three snacks during the day. The breakfast was supposed to be about 320 calories; lunch and dinner were 400 calories each, and the snacks were about 160 calories each. Jakubowicz suggested that the latter diet plan among overweight, uncontrolled diabetes patients led to higher insulin use to contend with higher glucose readings, and the insulin use led to greater intake of foods and weight gain and worsening of diabetes control, and hence more insulin -- a vicious circle that resulted in less diabetes control and greater weight gain.

In addition to weight and reduced use of insulin, the main findings were as follows:
Subjects in the study who were on the high-energy breakfast diet also recorded lower hunger scores on a visual analog scale; after 3 months, the average score for the group was reduced 18 points, compared with a two-point increase in the score of the patients on the comparator diet plan (P<0.05)

Body mass index decreased by an average of 1.9 in the high-energy breakfast diet, but increased by 0.1 in those on the six-meal diet plan (P<0.05) HbA1c decreased by 1.2 from 8.2% to 7% in the high-energy breakfast group and decreased by 0.2% in those on the six-meal diet plan, from 7.9% to 7.7% (P<0.05)

Overall glycemia measured by continuous glucose monitoring decreased in the high-energy breakfast diet by 38 mg/dl compared with a decrease of 17 mg/dl in the six-meal diet (P<0.05) Participants in the study were about 69 years old, and body mass index was 32.2. Overall glycemia was assessed for 14 days at baseline and at the end of the intervention by continuous glucose monitoring, and the insulin dose was titrated biweekly.

Asked for her perspective, Anne Peters, MD, director of the Clinical Diabetes Programs at the Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, who was not involved with the study, told MedPage Today: "I think this diet idea has merit. I do this with some of my patients. I have always told my patients to eat dinner for breakfast and then don't eat after 7 pm. And eat a small dinner." That said, Peters also suggested that doctors avoid "cookie cutter" diet plans for their patients: "No one diet plan fits everyone. We all have different metabolism rates." She did note that the study had small numbers, so a larger study would be warranted to confirm the findings.

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Mar-20-18 at 05:41.
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  #839   ^
Old Tue, Mar-20-18, 09:26
PaCarolSue PaCarolSue is offline
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Plan: Reduced carb
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My personal experience as a type 2 Diabetic. In the past, I have been eating 2 meals a day, Brunch and dinner, 6 hours apart. I recently started to alternate between 2 meals a day and 1 meal a day, just dinner. I found that my fasting blood sugar is higher the morning after OMAD. I don't know how that figures into the study.
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  #840   ^
Old Wed, Mar-21-18, 02:58
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Progress: 134%
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Carol, I found my BG was higher for longer time periods in the day and also higher morning fasting, in the 100-115 range. I understand why but was not happy about it, now by eating breakfast it seems to have corrected. http://forum.lowcarber.org/showpost...2&postcount=789
The argument is "in the context of very low carb" or in Shawn Baker, in the context of all meat...a higher HbA1c is not damaging, not the same as a high carb eater, blah, blah. I shouldn’t let a number decide the timing of meals...but I’m happier with a 5.1

More on Shawn Baker's Blood Work....the Commenters are rather worked up over his numbers on Robb Wolf's podcast too!
https://robbwolf.com/2018/03/13/epi...ers-blood-work/
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