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  #286   ^
Old Sat, Aug-04-07, 05:42
diemde's Avatar
diemde diemde is offline
Posts: 7,547
 
Plan: lower carb
Stats: 333/199.8/172 Female 5'8"
BF:??/39.0/25
Progress: 83%
Location: Central Ohio
Default

Hi Ladies! May I join the discussion here? I'm finally back at lifting again... started June 24th. I'm loving it most of the time... had a crappy LBWO on Thursday, so am a bit frustrated with it right now. I know that will pass though.

I was reading a book, Nutrient Timing, that goes into the science behind eating pre/post WO, including the 24 hours after a WO. It's pretty interesting. I've been eating 5 to 10 carbs immediately after WO as that is the recommendation I was given here a few years back. But I'm really wondering if that is enough. The guideline in this book is 3 or 4g carbs per 1g protein. For post WO it recomends 13-15g whey protein and 40-50g carbs. I'm curious how many post WO carbs/protein the rest of you take in? I may experiment some with this... I don't think 40 or 50 carbs is a good idea for me, but I might try going up to 20 or 25.

I'm starting to feel my muscles being solid... of course still underneath a layer of fat. But it still feels good.
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  #287   ^
Old Sat, Aug-04-07, 08:18
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 30,111
 
Plan: No sugar, flour, wheat
Stats: 228.4/209.0/170 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 33%
Location: NYC
Default

Hi Dianne,
FWIW, I asked my trainer about eating after working out and he told me for weight loss, to wait one hour after workout before eating. For building muscle as in body builders, they eat right after they workout.

I don't know how true this is but I thought I'd share it with you.
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  #288   ^
Old Sat, Aug-04-07, 10:09
diemde's Avatar
diemde diemde is offline
Posts: 7,547
 
Plan: lower carb
Stats: 333/199.8/172 Female 5'8"
BF:??/39.0/25
Progress: 83%
Location: Central Ohio
Default

Thanks Judy. That doesn't quite make sense to me. I thought you wanted the protein and carbs immediately after in order to refill glycogen quickly, to reduce catabolism and to start repairing. What is the point of lifting hard if you aren't going to supply the nutrients for the muscle right away? I'm still learning about this, so maybe there is a reason for it that I'm not aware of.

This book really has some good info in it. I've gotten bits and pieces over the years from folks here and around the net, but this is the first place I've seen it all brought together.

For preWO, 10mins before, he recommends 20-26g carbs & 5-6g protein and then the post WO I mentioned above should be within 45 mins. He also talks about a 4 hour window after WO when you want to keep insulin above the normal level to prevent insulin resistance in the muscles. For the "growth phase", which is the 4 hour window plus the 16-18 hours remaining in the day, he recommends 14g whey protein and 2g casein with 2-4g carbs (still high GI carbs). He doesn't say how often you eat this amount for the growth phase. Somehow I don't think I'd recommend high GI carbs after the 4 hour window, though. This book is geared for muscle building, not fat loss, so from that perspective it might make sense.

I've also read elsewhere that it's good to have the post WO shake right after then another meal with slow protein (i.e. real food) within a couple of hours. That must be related to this 4 hour window.

It's so funny, I'm still having trouble trying to figure out what carbs to eat pre and post. After all this time, I just don't have carb laden foods in the house. I finally bought a powder mix to use in my shakes that is for skinny people trying to gain muscle.
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  #289   ^
Old Sat, Aug-04-07, 10:42
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
Default

You can get really technical with getting the exact amount of P and C into your workout meals, and make yourself a little crazy, Really all that matters is that you have protein available for repair when your muscles need it. When is that? Ha! No one can tell you. It could be anytime. Your body is breaking down and building up muscle all the time. Obviously lifting weights is an added stress, so it makes good sense to have protein sometime around your workout.

Protein takes a long time to digest in your system. As long as you've had one meal prior to lifting, you're good to go; you should never lift "empty".

If you are dieting, this is all that matters--that you have protein available.
Quote:
I thought you wanted the protein and carbs immediately after in order to refill glycogen quickly, to reduce catabolism and to start repairing. What is the point of lifting hard if you aren't going to supply the nutrients for the muscle right away?
Exactly right. You don't have to take in carbs post workout, if you are carb-sensitive. You can take them pre-workout instead, and then have a normal meal soon after the session. Recent research now shows that the post workout window isn't as crucial as "they" used to think. Just make sure you get in enough protein throughout the day (~1gP/#LBM min.), and eat a P meal prior to lifting.

What I do on lifting days is have the bulk of my carbs before and after lifting, with some remaining throughout the day.

Here--she does a better job explaining it than I do, lol. Scroll down to the third question about dextrose in the postworkout shake.
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=282

Also, at Lyle McDonald's site, www.bodyrecomposition.com you can do a search on post workout nutrition and read to your heart's content.
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  #290   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 06:59
diemde's Avatar
diemde diemde is offline
Posts: 7,547
 
Plan: lower carb
Stats: 333/199.8/172 Female 5'8"
BF:??/39.0/25
Progress: 83%
Location: Central Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dane
You can get really technical with getting the exact amount of P and C into your workout meals, and make yourself a little crazy,

And it doesn't take much for me to be a little crazy.

Thanks for the links. MariAnne is the one who taught me about the 5g post WO carb level... as well as a host of other things. I'm still going to play around a bit with the carbs post WO. I'll try for a few WOs and see if I can tell a difference. Experimenting gives me some thing to think about.
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  #291   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 08:16
galatia's Avatar
galatia galatia is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,640
 
Plan: low carb
Stats: 173/135.8/130 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Mississippi
Default STRENGTH FACTS:Why Strength Training?

STRENGTH FACTS:Why Strength Training?


People of all ages are finding that strength training is critical for almost every goal from injury prevention and post rehabilitation to weight loss and better sports performance. Research has shown that strengthening exercises are both safe and effective for women and men of all ages, including those who are not in perfect health. In fact, people with health concerns, including heart disease or arthritis, often benefit the most from an exercise program that includes lifting weights a few times each week.


Strength training, particularly in conjunction with regular aerobic exercise, can also have a profound impact on a person's mental and emotional health.

Benefits of Strength Training

While aerobic activity primarily benefits your heart and circulatory system, strength training does this and so much more. Strength training will add lean body mass (muscle and bone) while improving your heart and circulatory system. The more lean body mass you have, the more calories you burn every minute of every day for the rest of your life. 3 lbs of new muscle tissue burns more fat daily than a 1 mile run!



There are numerous benefits to strength training regularly, particularly as you grow older. It can be very powerful in reducing the signs and symptoms of numerous diseases and chronic conditions, among them: arthritis
diabetes
osteoporosis
obesity
back pain
depression



Arthritis Relief


Tufts University recently completed a strength-training program with older men and women with moderate to severe knee osteoarthritis. The results of this sixteen-week program showed that strength training decreased pain by 43%, increased muscle strength and general physical performance, improved the clinical signs and symptoms of the disease, and decreased disability.
The effectiveness of strength training to ease the pain of osteoarthritis was just as potent, if not more potent, as medications. Similar effects of strength training have been seen in patients with rheumatoid arthritis.

Restoration of Balance and Reduction of Falls


As people age, poor balance and flexibility contribute to falls and broken bones. These fractures can result in significant disability and, in some cases, fatal complications. Strengthening exercises, when done properly and through the full range of motion, increase a person's flexibility and balance, which decrease the likelihood and severity of falls. One study in New Zealand in women 80 years of age and older showed a 40% reduction in falls with simple strength and balance training.

Strengthening of Bone


Post-menopausal women can lose 1-2% of their bone mass annually. Results from a study conducted at Tufts University, which were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1994, showed that strength training increases bone density and reduces the risk for fractures among women aged 50-70.Proper Weight Maintenance

Strength training is crucial to weight control, because individuals who have more muscle mass have a higher metabolic rate. Muscle is active tissue that consumes calories while stored fat uses very little energy. Strength training can provide up to a 15% increase in metabolic rate, which is enormously helpful for weight loss and long-term weight control.

Improved Glucose Control


More than 14 million Americans have type II diabetes�a staggering three-hundred percent increase over the past forty years�and the numbers are steadily climbing. In addition to being at greater risk for heart and renal disease, diabetes is also the leading cause of blindness in older adults. Fortunately, studies now show that lifestyle changes such as strength training have a profound impact on helping older adults manage their diabetes. In a recent study of Hispanic men and women, 16 weeks of strength training produced dramatic improvements in glucose control that are comparable to taking diabetes medication. Additionally, the study volunteers were stronger, gained muscle, lost body fat, had less depression, and felt much more self-confident.

Healthy State of Mind


When older adults participate in strength training programs, their self-confidence and self-esteem improve, which has a strong impact on their overall quality of life.
Strength training provides similar improvements in depression as anti-depressant medications. Currently, it is not known if this is because people feel better when they are stronger or if strength training produces a helpful biochemical change in the brain. It is most likely a combination of the two.
Sleep Improvement

People who exercise regularly enjoy improved sleep quality. They fall asleep more quickly, sleep more deeply, awaken less often, and sleep longer. As with depression, the sleep benefits obtained as a result of strength training are comparable to treatment with medication but without the side effects or the expense.

Healthy Heart Tissue


Strength training is important for cardiac health because heart disease risk is lower when the body is leaner. One study found that cardiac patients gained not only strength and flexibility but also aerobic capacity when they did strength training three times a week as part of their rehabilitation program.
This and other studies have prompted the American Heart Association to recommend strength training as a way to reduce risk of heart disease and as a therapy for patients in cardiac rehabilitation programs.
Research and Background About Strength Training

Scientific research has shown that exercise can slow the physiological aging clock. While aerobic exercise, such as walking, jogging, or swimming, has many excellent health benefits�it maintains the heart and lungs and increases cardiovascular fitness and endurance�it does not make your muscles strong. Strength training does. Studies have shown that lifting weights two or three times a week increases strength by building muscle mass and bone density.

One 12-month study conducted on postmenopausal women at Tufts University demonstrated 1% gains in hip and spine bone density, 75% increases in strength and 13% increases in dynamic balance with just two days per week of progressive strength training. The control group had losses in bone, strength, and balance. Strength training programs can also have a profound effect on reducing risk for falls, which translates to fewer fractures.

However you slice it, strength training is the most productive and effective exercise that you can do.
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  #292   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 12:59
diemde's Avatar
diemde diemde is offline
Posts: 7,547
 
Plan: lower carb
Stats: 333/199.8/172 Female 5'8"
BF:??/39.0/25
Progress: 83%
Location: Central Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by galatia
One 12-month study conducted on postmenopausal women at Tufts University demonstrated 1% gains in hip and spine bone density...

Debbie, thanks for sharing this! I need to gain bone density and was wondering how much I could expect to gain in a year. I'm hoping for a 15% gain which would get me back into the normal range... Guess it might take longer than a year. I'm doing a few more workouts than they did in this study, though, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Something else I was wondering... do you guys know how much LM I should expect to lose as I lose the fat? A typical ratio or percentage? Right now, for every 1 lb of scale weight I lose, about 1/3 is LM. That's why I'm so concerned about trying to do everything I can to keep the LM I have. I still have 60 lbs or so of scale weight to lose.

BTW, I posted a couple of pics today in my gallery. And no, they aren't lifting poses. I did take some "before" lifting poses yesterday, but I'm not quite brave enough to post them.
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  #293   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 13:10
athena11's Avatar
athena11 athena11 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,388
 
Plan: semi-low carb
Stats: 127/127/114 Female 65
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Great Lakes
Default Wow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by diemde

I still have 60 lbs or so of scale weight to lose.

BTW, I posted a couple of pics today in my gallery. And no, they aren't lifting poses. I did take some "before" lifting poses yesterday, but I'm not quite brave enough to post them.


You lost a lot of weight! Although you probably didn't want to at the time, I'll bet you're glad you have those old pictures now. You've really done well.

My husband has our digital camera on a trip right now. I may find my own video cassette to record what will hopefully be a noticeable transformation.
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  #294   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 13:45
ImOnMyWay's Avatar
ImOnMyWay ImOnMyWay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,831
 
Plan: OWL
Stats: 177/168/135 Female 5'1"
BF:50.5/38/25
Progress: 21%
Location: Los Angeles
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hi --

I want to restart doing some resistance training, but I'm afraid to do leg presses or squats for fear of aggravating hemorrhoids. (I haven't had an incident for a couple of years, but the memory of it is still fresh in my mind.) I REALLY do not want to have to visit a doctor to have him/her push the offending vein back in; sit on a "doughnut", etc. ever again if I can avoid it. Sorry to be gross, but its very painful.

Do you have any recommendations -- perhaps floor exercises that use body weight only? Or...?
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  #295   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 15:06
Demokat's Avatar
Demokat Demokat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,301
 
Plan: Paleo/Organic Fat Flush
Stats: 193/176/145 Female 5'4.5"
BF:42/31/24
Progress: 35%
Location: Boston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImOnMyWay
hi --

I want to restart doing some resistance training, but I'm afraid to do leg presses or squats for fear of aggravating hemorrhoids. (I haven't had an incident for a couple of years, but the memory of it is still fresh in my mind.) I REALLY do not want to have to visit a doctor to have him/her push the offending vein back in; sit on a "doughnut", etc. ever again if I can avoid it. Sorry to be gross, but its very painful.

Do you have any recommendations -- perhaps floor exercises that use body weight only? Or...?


I'm a proponent of floor exercises, leg weights, and dumbbells. I have hurt myself on machines far too often, plus I have arthritis in both my knees.

You could try side leg lifts with or without ankle weights, hamstring curls using a stability ball, scissors for legs and lower abs, seated leg extentions using an exercise band, calf presses using dumbbells or a step. There are lots of alternatives. I'm sure some people here can suggest others. Try googling leg exercises.

BTW I stopped getting hemorrhoids when I cut out wheat/gluten/sugar.
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  #296   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 15:42
diemde's Avatar
diemde diemde is offline
Posts: 7,547
 
Plan: lower carb
Stats: 333/199.8/172 Female 5'8"
BF:??/39.0/25
Progress: 83%
Location: Central Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImOnMyWay
Do you have any recommendations -- perhaps floor exercises that use body weight only? Or...?

Here's a suggested routine just using bodyweight: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/...sictraining.htm I haven't tried this so I don't know how well it works.

As far as replacing the squats, the only other one I've seen suggested is lunges. You might look around at http://exrx.net to see if there are other things that might work for you.
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  #297   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 15:48
diemde's Avatar
diemde diemde is offline
Posts: 7,547
 
Plan: lower carb
Stats: 333/199.8/172 Female 5'8"
BF:??/39.0/25
Progress: 83%
Location: Central Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by athena11
You lost a lot of weight! Although you probably didn't want to at the time, I'll bet you're glad you have those old pictures now. You've really done well.

Thank you. Yes, it's really good to have the "before" pictures. I've taken a few of me in my workout clothes, posing my arms & back like I see the others do here. My pics are just not ready for prime time. I need a lot of arm work... and even then I'll probably still have the dreaded bat wings. But I can live a lot better with bat wings than with that extra 100 lbs or so!
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  #298   ^
Old Sat, Aug-11-07, 06:57
diemde's Avatar
diemde diemde is offline
Posts: 7,547
 
Plan: lower carb
Stats: 333/199.8/172 Female 5'8"
BF:??/39.0/25
Progress: 83%
Location: Central Ohio
Default

I worked this up to share on another thread and thought I'd share it with you all. I'm disappointed that I am still continuing to lose lean mass. I know some is inevitable as not all lean mass is muscle, but I was hoping the resistance training would slow the rate down. Maybe it's just too soon to tell?

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  #299   ^
Old Sat, Aug-11-07, 07:30
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
Default

I'm not sure what the exact rate of loss would be, but it is expected to lose some of your lean mass when you're dieting down from higher BF%'s....you just don't need as much to support yourself now. It's reasonable to expect that eating enough protein and heavy weight training will preserve some, which you're doing.

I've read that a general rule of thumb for predicting LBM is to estimate it as 80% of your dream goal weight. You won't be too far from that in reality--maybe a pound or two.

I suspect your goal LBM estimate is too high--at your height, I would expect your LBM to be around 112-120 when you get sub-160#.

As you said, lean mass is not just muscle, but bone, organs, fluid, ligaments, tendons, circulatory system, etc. All things that grow to support heavy weight, and will break down as that heavy weight diminishes and these support structures are no longer needed at their previous level.
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  #300   ^
Old Sat, Aug-11-07, 07:36
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
Default

Also Diane, just quickly skimming the last few entries in your gym log...it appears to me that the routine you're doing is not the most efficient. Better to do fewer sets of more challenging exercises at heavier weights. It's the heavy (heavy-for-you) stimulus from the weights that signal your body to hang on to muscle--and to do that, you need to be able to challenge yourself at each session. Some of the exercises you are doing are not going to help you much--not as much "bang for your buck",

Finally, when you're doing this lifting, you are doing so while dieting, so your recovery is limited; you're better off keeping the number of working sets you do to 20 or less.
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