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  #196   ^
Old Tue, Mar-07-06, 14:59
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
But it could also depend on how deep the caves were ....
Or if somebody left the campfire on!
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  #197   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 03:23
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
Posts: 26,772
 
Plan: Muscle Centric
Stats: 238/153/160 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: UK
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Came across this interesting article this morning, linking lack of sleep with childhood obesity:

Children who do not get enough sleep are more likely to be obese
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  #198   ^
Old Sat, Mar-18-06, 18:31
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
Came across this interesting article this morning, linking lack of sleep with childhood obesity:

Children who do not get enough sleep are more likely to be obese
Demi,

Thanks for this article. It is right in line with this thread!

From the article:

"Reduction in sleeping hours has become a hallmark of our society. If the findings prove to be reproducible and generalisable ... we could add sleep duration to the environmental factors that are prevalent in our society and that contribute to ... obesity."
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  #199   ^
Old Mon, Mar-27-06, 11:44
Miss K Miss K is offline
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Posts: 65
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 155/000/135 Female 5'4''
BF:
Progress: 775%
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Hi, Everyone.

My family and I just started trying to implement the sleeping guidelines outlined in Lights Out. I have also started low carbing.

Personally, I find that the results are amazing. Before Lights Out, I went to bed around 11 and woke up between 5 and 7. I also usually woke up briefly between 2 and 4. No matter how tired I felt, I was unable to sleep past 6 or 7.

Incredibly, I have discovered that when I go to bed earlier (between 7:30 and 8:30, usually), I can sleep for up to 11.5 hours. It is amazing! Truly mind boggling.

I do not know whether everyone needs that much sleep, but I have been feeling much more rested. My head feels clearer, my anxiety is much reduced (I used to have severe anxiety), and I am told that I look brighter.

Has anyone else experienced similar results?
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  #200   ^
Old Mon, Mar-27-06, 16:33
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Posts: 4,815
 
Plan: My Own
Stats: 280/118/117.5 Female 5ft 5.25 in
BF:
Progress: 100%
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I'm very fascinated by the idea that sleeping contributes a fundamental role in maintaining normal physiology (health). I've long suspected that sleep had a sort of "reparing/restoring" function on the body, that essential growth takes place only in sleep. After dieting and restricting awhile, thus "depleting" myself, I notice I begin to crave meats terribly. Once I do eat meats in such a state, I feel extremely warm, usually dump water, and become very tired. It's not a sugar-coma tired but an "exhausted" tired like exercising, like I need to rest and replenish myself. I reason my body needs to build and do things that are only physiologically possible in sleep. As I eat more and gain weight, this effect tends to diminish.

I also know, from experience, depriving myself of sleep destroys my metabolism (it's like eating carbs), makes me lethargic, hungry, emotionally unstable/depressive, so on.

I've been reading the snippets of the book on amazon.com and I am worried about the logical consistency of the author's claims (as well as evidence to substantiate them). For example, she says high serotonin, not low serotonin, causes chemical depression. If that is true why do SSRIs alleviate depressive symptoms? SSRIs prevent the reuptake of serotonin (where it is destroyed) so more is available to bind to receptors in the synapse (or at least this was my understanding).SSRIs decrease depressive tendencies (they are depression drugs) yet they increase bioavailability of serotonin.

Furthermore, she also says that high serotonin correlates with high insulin; therefore it stands to reason that the obese = high serotonin emotional and behavioral profile.
This does not follow. The profile of excessive serotonin is usually associated with those who do not eat much and are usually wirey and thin - obsessive compulsive, nervous, rigid, cold/withdrawn, depressive, anxious, fearful and phobic, cautious and very harm avoidant, thrifty/hording tendencies, so on.

Those who are that way usually are thin; likewise those who become thin (i.e. undereat) become that way. I know, because, I am one of those people now. The more I under eat, the more I fit that profile. I've seen numerous dieters do total 180s and become neurotic obsessives whereas previously they were stereotypically heavy in personality. Obviously it must be cyclical, stress and this "profile" of behaviors (stress -> behaviors -> more stress -> more behaviors). Some kind of positive feedback disease loop going on, since it can be both organically present (i.e. born that way) or triggered later (some kind of stressful event such as emotional trauma or starving yourself i.e. dieting to lose weight).

When I was heavy and eating more, my personality was much different, and I think this is a neurochemical thing related to food intake. I was much more like a "classic high weight" behavioral profile of high dopamine and low serotonin (marked by low impulse control, sensation-seeking, living for the moment, highs and lows, so on. ). When I "lose control" of my food intake and start eating too many carbs, I gradually start becoming more like the the high dopamine behavioral profile - lack of impulse control, binging problems.

If insulin causes chronic high serotonin, and abnormally high serotonin causes those symptoms, why are those behaviors consistently linked to food abstinence and thinness? Why are dopamine-flavored behaviors consistently linked to food overindulgence and obesity?

Here's my reasoning. I think it is more likely that the spikes in serotonin from over eating carbs are not causing chronic high serotonin, but instead, contributing to a serotonin deficiency that results in an overabundance of dopamine. Yes, technically, eating raises serotonin. However, much like eating carbs can actually cause low blood sugar/lethargy, so can spiking your serotonin cause a deficiency of the neurotransmitter plus burnout to it. The carbs flood the brain with serotonin, which then cause a crash later, leaving you in a dopamine-dominant, low state. You then seek more serotonin, which leads to carb cravings. The blood sugar and probably the serotonin crash are both contributing to overeating.

Much like the hypoglycemic roller coaster, this imbalance is, for most people, impermanent and fluxes with diet and amount of food eaten. In other words, if ya just stop over eating or eating too many carbs, soon you normalize your neurochemistry and food intake patterns. The dopamine/serotonin balances itself out.

However, if you persist in under eating and it becomes excessive (for example, dieting to lose weight to be culturally correct)... then you create a physiological stress state, and stress states are associated with the high-serotonin profile. Then your normal eating impulses become abnormal - you lose your appetite and your desire for food, you become ocd, neurotic, fearful, and the stereotypical nervous thin. Might even trigger anorexia, assuming prejudice against fat/eating is present. That's why trauma and dieting are catalysts for anorexia and food abstinence - these things burden the body with tremendous stress, which causes a neurochemical imbalance inverse of the kind seen in over eating overweight people (high serotonin, low dopamine).

I've only read a few pages of the book (available on amazon) so maybe my conclusions match the authors, but from what I gather she seems to imply it is the HIGH serotonin that is responsible for the maladies experienced by the obese... when IMO this is not logically consistent. The problems of too much serotonin (or insufficient dopamine) are observed in those highly stressed in some way, often by food restriction... the wiry, nervous thin.
The profile is NOT consistent with high weight and eating generously. The high weight profile is consistent with high dopamine, deficient serotonin.
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  #201   ^
Old Mon, Mar-27-06, 21:11
TBoneMitch TBoneMitch is offline
OOOOOOOOOH YEAH!
Posts: 692
 
Plan: High Fat/IF
Stats: 215/170/160 Male 5 feet 10 inches
BF:27%/12%/8%
Progress: 82%
Location: Montreal, Quebec
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Woo, I think you messed up the roles of serotonin and dopamine.

High serotonin makes you sleepy and mildly euphoric, and eating carbs increase the uptake of tryptophan in the brain (tryptophan is the building block of serotonin).

So those heavy, carb-doped people are on a serotonin-induced coma, and feel no energy to take a part in any action.

Hence depressive symptoms if the situation continues for a while.
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  #202   ^
Old Tue, Mar-28-06, 17:05
nraden nraden is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 144
 
Plan: Lights Out
Stats: 255/225/190 Male 72"
BF:all
Progress: 46%
Location: California
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I'm T.S. Wiley's husband. I'm glad you enjoyed Lights Out. You'll probably enjoy her next one, Sex, Lies and Menopause. She's also working on a men's health book.
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  #203   ^
Old Tue, Mar-28-06, 17:08
nraden nraden is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 144
 
Plan: Lights Out
Stats: 255/225/190 Male 72"
BF:all
Progress: 46%
Location: California
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Sorry, forgot to mention that she and Dr. Atkins were good friends. She misses him very much. She was on his radio show about once a month and (this is some Lights Out humor) he would call her on her cell phone at 8 or 9 PM (we're in California) and I would always hear her say (he was in New York), "Bob, shouldn't you be asleep?"
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  #204   ^
Old Tue, Mar-28-06, 19:38
TheCaveman's Avatar
TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: Angry Paleo
Stats: 375/205/180 Male 6'3"
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nraden
I'm T.S. Wiley's husband. I'm glad you enjoyed Lights Out. You'll probably enjoy her next one, Sex, Lies and Menopause. She's also working on a men's health book.


Holy cow, Neil! I must say I'm glad you found us. I'd send you a PM, but you have to have a certain number of posts before I can.

You have a lot of questions to answer, I'm afraid.
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  #205   ^
Old Wed, Mar-29-06, 08:18
Miss K Miss K is offline
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Posts: 65
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 155/000/135 Female 5'4''
BF:
Progress: 775%
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Hi, nraden.

Welcome to the forum. It is great to have you here.

I cannot remember where I found it, but I saw a picture of your wife on the Internet the other day. She had long hair and a little bit of make up on. She may or may not have been wearing glasses. Anyways, she looked amazing! She looked happier, healthier, more vibrant, and about twenty pounds lighter than the picture found in the back of Lights Out. She seemed to positively glow. How long did it take for her appearance to change so dramatically? Have you noticed similar changes in your own appearance?

Thanks,

~Kristin

P.S. My mom is currently ready Sex, Lies, and Menopause for school and quite enjoying it.
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  #206   ^
Old Wed, Mar-29-06, 22:15
nraden nraden is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 144
 
Plan: Lights Out
Stats: 255/225/190 Male 72"
BF:all
Progress: 46%
Location: California
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We've been married for 33 years, she looks the same to me! I think that was just a bad picture. I don't notice anything about myself, I'm sort of oblivious.

I don't think I mentioned that she was also very close to Dr. Atkins. His death was a real blow. I thought I already posted this, but I don't see it. He would call her on her cellphone, about 8 or 9PM California time and she would always say to him (in New York), "Shouldn't you be sleeping?"

They were working on a book idea together about seasonal eating. She may get around to it, but the drug companies, NIH, compounding pharmacists, doctors and FDA are all keeping her pretty busy right now, not in a good way.

Making progress in this environment is brutal.

-Neil
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  #207   ^
Old Wed, Mar-29-06, 22:17
nraden nraden is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 144
 
Plan: Lights Out
Stats: 255/225/190 Male 72"
BF:all
Progress: 46%
Location: California
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oh duh I did post that. I need more sleep!
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  #208   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-06, 12:49
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
Posts: 26,772
 
Plan: Muscle Centric
Stats: 238/153/160 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by nraden
I'm glad you enjoyed Lights Out. You'll probably enjoy her next one, Sex, Lies and Menopause

I really enjoyed Lights Out too, and because of your post, I've just ordered Sex, Lies and Menopause from Amazon. I think that I'm going to find it a very relevant read!
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  #209   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-06, 15:07
nraden nraden is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 144
 
Plan: Lights Out
Stats: 255/225/190 Male 72"
BF:all
Progress: 46%
Location: California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCaveman
Very nice work at this post about vitamin D: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=210491

To get us back on track a bit, have you noticed that people on these forums complain either of being tired or snacking at night and no one ever suggests to these folks that they GET MORE SLEEP? All the suggestions revolve around willpower or magic remedies.

The connection is NEVER made between being tired and needing sleep, at least on these forums. Why is that?


I want to tell you a story about Susie (that's her name, T.S. Wiley is her nom de plume). She was on Good Morning America when Lights Out came out. Diane Sawyer was interviewing her and was most interested in Susie's description for low-fat and exercise: "Your body thinks there's a famine and and there is a tiger chasing you."

Sawyer couldn't get her head around this, Susie reminded her that Jim Fixx dropped dead. So Sawyer switched to the extra hours of sleep, incredulolus that anyone could sleep even eight hours. Susie's response:

"When the government told you to eat low-fat, you did it. You lived on hay and straw. When the experts told you to get more exercise, you got up in the middle of the night, in the bitter cold, with knees aching, at risk of being struck by a car, and did it. All of these things you did willingly. All I ask is that you get a little more sleep. Is that too much to ask?"

-NR
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  #210   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-06, 15:13
nraden nraden is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 144
 
Plan: Lights Out
Stats: 255/225/190 Male 72"
BF:all
Progress: 46%
Location: California
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I wanted to send this note to you privately, but I couldn't. I haven't quite figured this site out yet. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you, watch out for Tom Wehr, he's not an honest broker.

-NR
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