So no one has still answered this question.
Is it possible that being just barely OUT of ketosis is a better sugar burning state than being IN ketosis. Is it possible somehow to be VERY low carb but keep the body from entering ketosis.
and.. are the low lipids/bp benefits of low carbing only available if in ketosis.. or as a result of keeping carbs low.

still confused.. need to read more..
ps.. i did not take the above quote out of context.. the important part of the quote is:"in ketosis, the body will
prefer ketones to glucose for fuel. To achieve maximal glycogen depletion
in all muscle fibers, you need to exit ketosis"
this quote implies... the normal body state consumes sugar better.

so.. if i am insulin resistant, glucose intolerant and type 2... does ketosis hurt my ability to kill sugar...

OR as someone else stated is the benefit of regulating sugar under low carb the more important benefit. I hover around 140-150 and only with EXTREME exercise do i see a 120. no meds. body building to increase muscle mass.. no change in weight.. no change in inch measurements.

babbling.

IMO, it is not necessary to be in ketosis to control BGs better, ATMOF, for me it is better not to be in ketosis, you my Bgs will run slightly higher.

as it was already pointed, definition of ketosis does not always correlates with large amount of ketones in urine (unused) but rather evaluated by other criteria. The amount of carbs varies from one person to another, and while T2 can have problem entering deep ketosis due to high basal insulin I despite eating little carbs) healthy person can enter ketosis when carbs are less than 20g. Lyle is correct that body preferes to use ketones as fuel and will not burn glucose while in ketosis. I think once the carbs are too low for at least 48 hours, the "starvation" alarm goes off and the body goes into back-up fuel burning mode and saves glucose only for those cells that can't use FFA and/or ketones, and need only glucose to function.
So, this lead to another problem of many T2: deep ketosis will leave more glucose circulating in blood stream, rather than being burned. Tried and true for me, but many folks seem to have no problem with it. It could be also that those T2 who weight train ( I mean heavy lifting) may run higher Bgs in deep ketosis due to liver dump that is not hastened by llowered insulin.
Bottom line, we have problem burning glucose as a major fuel source, so in ketosis or not, the problem still exist.

Again, ketosis needed as a kick start to get body into fat burning mode, it has rather very little to do with Bgs control per se, and is not necessary for good Bgs, lower CHO and BP, any low carb plan will do. Some do great on up to 100 g of carbs a day, and if you exercise a lot, it may be more beneficial to stay out of ketosis or do cyclical ketogenic diet.



I did not say you did, it was another poster.

the key word is NORMAL person, and we are T2, so the same rule does not apply to diabetics, who have to deal with liver dump, gluconeogenesis, IR, and other variables that do not fit well into one equation of Bgs control.
But it makes sense, that body will rather burn ketones while in ketosis, which is necessary for fat burning (weight loss) but not required for Bgs control. The whole concept of low carb diet for Bgs control comes from eating very little carbs per meal to avoid Bgs spike, sort of level them out, so insulin drop somewhat too ( not as low as in healthy folks though) since we have at least 4 times higher insulin requirements for the same BGs as healthy ppl, and some IR have as high as 10 folds insulin to maintain near normal BGs.


Yes and no, ketosis helps to reduce insulin but it may hasten your body's ability to use glucose more effeciently, but after all, being T2 means that you are glucose intolerant, so you already have this issue. I think the problem is gluconeogenesis, so if there is not enough carbs, liver works too hard to prevent hypoglycemia and there is not enough insulin to stop it.


For me Bgs control is primary, everything esle is secondary. Bgs and weight loss go into opposite direction for me: better Bgs= no weight loss, lose weight - Bgs go higher. If the glucose gets into cells (so you see beter numbers) you better burn it or it will get converted into fat. Weight lifting IMO burns more fat than sugar, so may be you can add some aerobic exercise to your routine ro burn some sugar: running, walking, swimming - works better than others for me.
140-150 is a bit on higher side IMO, could it be that you need to re-evaluate your diet and exercise routine or may be add some medications to see slightly better number (100-120). Anyways, discuss this with your doctor first, this is the most impotant.
HTH

Ketones are passed to urine when they are
present but body cells have no use for them.
Even if a person is in ketosis,extreme exercise
will deplete a lot of ketones.
If a person is truly in ketosis, ketones should show up in urine,a couple of hours after
a high fat meal if person has no current
high energy requirement.My impression is that
ketosis is great for someone wanting to lose
weight but I agree with Dina that a person need not be in ketosis to acheive good blood
glucose control.

I agree with Dina about aerobic exercise being
better for blood glucose control.I have done a
lot of experimenting with the various types of
exercise.I do weightlifting because I like it but
i do aerobic exercise for blood glucose control
and it works well-it will sometimes drop my
glucose reading 30-40 points.

I came to the same conclusion. I like weight lifting but it spikes Bgs especially if I am in ketosis. It is great exercise but does not agree with my body in deep ketosis. Aerobics (even brisk walk) will drop Bgs since it burns mostly sugar, even I do 1st thing on empty tank. If I lift on empty, I see spike up to 60-70 points now. If I go swimming 1st thing int he morning, I come back with Bgs in low 90s.
I know Dr.Benstein favors weight lifting over aerobics, but he can inject insulin before workout to keep his Bgs from rising, while I have to eat something carby to get the same efect or I will not be happy with my meter, LOL.
So, I have learned my lession: have some carbs before lifting to prevent the spike and do aerobics 1st thing in the morning to lower FBG. overall, it is a trial and error, never ending fight.
JMO

If you've been in ketosis for a while, your body gets much more efficient at making only the ketones you require for energy and has less excess to spill is one potential reason; another is you're diluting ketones enough with adequate hydration; last is 50g-60g may be making you "teeter" in and out of ketosis rather than maintain continuous ketosis for energy needs.

I wouldn't worry much about it as long as you do not begin to gain weight.

Does it mean that one must stay in deep ketosis forever in order not to regain weight?

nope, ketosis is for losing weight, not maintaining, I am in pre matinence, and out of ketosis, but still losing,but at a slower rate.when I am happy with my goal, I will up my carbs to my CCL, critical carb level to stay there, mine is 95 carbs a day, YMMV

Aerobic definitely burns sugar better BUT by weight training you increase your muscle mass (sugar burning engine) so that your aerobic will be more efficacious. (work better). so do both?

I dont think anyone is getting my point about the ketosis state versus the 'carb state'? It SOUNDS better to have my body in a state that prefers to burn SUGAR. Doesnt it? Please.. at least agree that it SOUNDS better. The problem is i have to EAT more carbs to get into that state which means i end up with more sugar in my blood.. but.. could that be LESS BG than my liver is now producing?

Its all very confusing. Each body is different. the only solution is to be your own guinea pig. But going on higher carbs means COUNTING carbs.. ugh.. counting is rough.

wish someone would pick up on my real purpose for this Thread.. not communicating well.. sorry.

Remember that you won't go into ketosis at all until your available stored sugar is pretty much depleted.

Aerobic exercise shouldn't burn glucose better, because anaerobic exercise uses more fast-twitch muscle fibers, which lack mitochondria and therefore *require* glucose. Aerobic exercise uses slow and intermediate fibers, which can burn either fat or glucose.

I suspect that the reason why anaerobic exercise drives BGs up is that it increases the *demand* for sugar, to which the carb-depleted body responds by increased gluconeogenesis (triggered by cortisol). Then, because we're IR, it takes longer to utilize the glucose that's produced, causing it to be produced longer, and BG rises.

As for being in a state that "prefers to burn sugar," your body *always* prefers to burn sugar, i.e., as soon as your BG goes up your body tries to utilize it. The trouble is that if you're diabetic or pre-diabetic (IR), you just don't utilize the sugar well.

Yes, bu my point was - do weight lifting after a meal containing some carbs and never on empty stomach or 1st thing in the morning, to avoid BGs spike.


trial and error for everyone, try and see which "evil" does less harm. If I cut my carbs too low- DP gets worse and overall Bgs will be higher, if I eat some carbs at meal - it spike shortly but then drops fast too, and less DP.


I understand your point very well, I have been raising the same question myself amny times. I suspect that "idiotic" ADA and "stupid" doctors advise not to cut carbs too low for the same reasosn: gluconeogenesis!!! But no one can help you to find what works for your body, it is trial and error, diabetes is too complex and everyone's body is different. So keep trying, check BGs more often: before and after meals and exercise, fiddle with carbs: fruit is less evil than grains, it has fructose that needs to be converted into glucose, so it is less spike. Beans are not bad: green beans, kidney beans, black soy beans (very low carb). Again, play with food and exercise, and find the regimen that works for you. If nothing esle works, there are new meds and insulin (glardine) that do not make you put on weight and will lower your BGs.


I am sorry if you feel like folks on this forum simply ignore your request, but i suggest you to browse the older threads, and you will see that we have been through this many, many time.
I also suggest Dr.Bernstein Forum, ppl there are gang-ho with the plan, and may be can explain things better.
http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/
regards,
D.

True for healthy folks, but diabetic liver is working all the time due to lack of insulin, so it will convert protein into glucose if carbs not avaiable.


Aerobics (especially high intensity like running) burn glucose first (fast and easier burning fuel) and once glucogen is depleted, it will switch to burning fat (which is slow process). Hence, they recommend to go beyond 20-25 to achieve "fat burning" goal of exercise. So, for diabetics brisk short walk will drop Bgs but keep going for 2 hours, and Bgs will start to climb back up.


Anaerobic exercise can utilize both fat and glucose without presence of oxygen, but since high intensity weight lifting deplets glucogen very fast, liver starts gluconeogenesis but there is now insulin to stop it. Also, weight lifting is very stressfull on body, so it releases cortisol, which further inhibits insulin action. WEight lifting has great benefits, it is just needs to be performed right and with caution for diabetics to achieve maximum benefits.
JMO

Does spiking blood sugar actually damage the body?

On a regular basis, not related to exercising, what bs levels do you start seeing damage?

Isn't all fat loss actually lipolysis meaning that you burned some bodyfat for fuel because you ran out of food energy?

I'm not eating LC right now, but low calories. I lost 10lbs in 2 weeks (I'm very active) my keto strips are reading ketones. I assume I'm in ketosis, although I eat over 70carbs/day, because I'm losing wt.

they say anything above 140 is toxic to the cells, it also depends how long the spike lasts.




may be, when calories are low and activity level is high, then body dippes into storage, I lose weight too when I eat less calories and/or exercise, the theory still applies