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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Jul-08-08, 01:20
Kendogirl's Avatar
Kendogirl Kendogirl is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 26
 
Plan: Idiot Proof Diet (P2)
Stats: 141.9/136.3/136.3 Female 5'6''
BF:17.6%
Progress: 100%
Location: Western Europe
Default Help: Proper Nutrition for HI Martial Arts?

Hello,

I'm having some problems with my energy levels during my martial arts and also fitness trainings. I do Kendo and our training sessions are pretty high intensity (at one point up to the point when your heart seems to explode and you can't breathe anymore) for 2-2,5 hours. I do that twice a week and in addition I train at the gym with a PT for 45 minutes once every week to build muscles and reduce body fat.

Now before I started LCing I used to eat oatmeal and an omelet before training and it always got me through till the end.

But now I'm having troubles. I'm now eating protein and fat before training but half way through my energy just seems to drop drastically and I need to really clench my teeth and dig out extra resources to keep going. I'm actually worried I'm burning muscle-mass there. And the worst part is, it takes me more than a day to recover from the training whereas in the past I never had an issue the next day.

So I guess I need some advice on what to eat before and after training.

btw, during Kendo training I cannot drink anything (wearing a helmet) so I need to hydrate before and after. And I've been LCing for 2 weeks now, quite strict but generally I feel alright.
Oh and I'm not counting calories yet. Is that something I should do? I'm wondering whether I'm actually eating enough.
My goals in training are mainly cardio, speed and general body strength and when I work out in the gym with my PT it's to get lean, long muscles, strong but preferribly small look-wise. (I don't know if that's important ^_^; )

anyway, any advice is greatly appreciated!
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, Jul-12-08, 20:03
ChicknLady's Avatar
ChicknLady ChicknLady is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,046
 
Plan: Low carb
Stats: 153/150/140 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 23%
Location: Pennsylvania
Default

Let me get this right - you push yourself to almost total exhaustion for 2-2.5 hours, wearing a helmet and probably sweating like a firehose, and you are not allowed to drink? For 2-2.5 hours?? That's your problem right there, if I read your situation right. I don't know if you can drink enough fluid to last thru a workout like that.

How long have you been low carbing? It took me over half a year to get my energy back to where it was on carbs. Some people get more energy very quickly, some, like me, it takes a while. Maybe because my metabolism wasn't wrecked yet before LCing. I dunno.

I'm taking Kenpo karate. It's not nearly the workout like yours, but I love it. We spend alot of time learning defenses against various personal attacks, like front-hand grabs, punches, or head locks. What kind of martial-art is Kendo?
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  #3   ^
Old Sat, Jul-12-08, 20:08
ChicknLady's Avatar
ChicknLady ChicknLady is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,046
 
Plan: Low carb
Stats: 153/150/140 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 23%
Location: Pennsylvania
Default

Duh, just read your post again and you had already answered one of my questions. You're only 2 weeks into LC, so it is totally normal to feel weak. It would be surprising if you DIDN'T feel weak. Your body is adjusting to a huge change, and needs time to produce the right enzymes and whatever to deal with the lack of carbs for energy. Give it time, don't push it, and don't give up. It's well worth the effort! I've been LCing for 3 years and have never felt more energized.
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  #4   ^
Old Sun, Jul-13-08, 06:55
Kendogirl's Avatar
Kendogirl Kendogirl is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 26
 
Plan: Idiot Proof Diet (P2)
Stats: 141.9/136.3/136.3 Female 5'6''
BF:17.6%
Progress: 100%
Location: Western Europe
Default

Thank you for your response! I used to do Shotokan Karate But I quit because Kendo and Karate don't go well together. Kendo is sword fighting like the samurai, but then "modernized" with bamboo swords and a point system for matches. It's always attacking, always going forward, whereas in shotokan it'd be always about defense, counter, and backing up. I struggled with it so I had to quit Karate to be able to give 100% in Kendo.

The no drinking is important because of the speed you use, any water on the dojo floor can make you slip and you can really get injured. Also traditionally in dojos you don't eat or drink. Some people take straws to drink so they can take sips while they wear their helmet (google "kendo" and look at the images to see what the helmet looks like). And of course when you are really feeling bad then you can take a small break and drink. But normally it's about a liter of water before and 2 liters after training.

I guess I really underestimated how big of an impact this change has on my body. My personal trainer at the gym always has me do crazy things with those inflatable balls and pushups while balancing on impossible stuff, and normally I can always cope but last week I really felt the strain on my physique and my PT saw that as well and she said 2 weeks of induction is enough for me, so from next week on I'll re-introduce some carbs again.

I made a protein bar from almond butter, some whey protein powder and some cream and it did really help with stamina. I could feel a difference. I guess it's really a matter of getting used to it and listening to your own body.

Good to hear it will get better from here, that will keep me going. Thank you!
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, Jul-13-08, 17:11
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

The weakness is normal and should be expected so take it easy for a while. Since you've cut out carbs, now you must use fat as fuel. This is what you're adapting to right now. It can take anywhere from 4 to 20 weeks depending on several factors. I'd say the younger you are the easier it is.
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, Jul-13-08, 17:38
ChicknLady's Avatar
ChicknLady ChicknLady is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,046
 
Plan: Low carb
Stats: 153/150/140 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 23%
Location: Pennsylvania
Default

I just googled "kendo" and saw a peice of a match on YouTube. Pretty cool! Apparently kendo means "way of the sword", so I get it now. I just started karate last December, and am slowly beginning to learn about the differences between various martial arts. Two students in my class had taken shotokan karate before, and have had a hard time changing habits. I can understand why you can't practice two disciplines at the same time without getting muscle-memory issues!

Definitely stick with the LC, and try to introduce only enough carbs so that you can complete your practices without bombing out. The closer you stick to 20 carbs or less, the faster your body will adjust and get it over with. LC is the way to go for muscle-building and recovery.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-08, 20:07
ibanez ibanez is offline
New Member
Posts: 15
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 209.6/209.6/170 Male 69
BF:
Progress:
Default

I've been doing Shotokan for many years myself. Back when I first started it was after I had just lost 65 lbs from my first round of atkins, at that time I had so much energy I thought I could do anything. So I started doing something I had always dreamed of doing.

Despite the constant training I slowly gained it all back, and now as I'm prepping for my black belt test I'm eager to burn it all back off so here I am again

I know what you mean about feeling like you run out of energy during class. Our classes are only an hour and a half, but they are very intense and much like yourself we arent allowed to bring water/food onto the floor. I also sweat a lot myself so I can easily drop 3-5 lbs after one session. I usually chug a bottle of water before class and a couple after.

Right now I'm on induction (day 4) and today's class I really felt it. Right now I have to alternate between bursts of speed/power and then some slack for a bit, if I go all out the whole class I'd drop. At this point my glucose reserve is gone, as I'm sure yours is. So as ChickNLady was saying, your body is learning to use fat for fuel.

Even though fat is a better fuel source, your body doesnt process it as quickly. Back when I first started training I would allow myself to eat a fruit bottom yogurt before class. The label said it had 30g of carbs on it, but I suspected it had more like 20-25 after the bacteria did its work. Either way I burned it all of during training and I was well out of the induction phase
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-08, 22:57
girlbug2's Avatar
girlbug2 girlbug2 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,091
 
Plan: Ketogenic paleo
Stats: 186/167/125 Female 5'4"
BF:trying to quit
Progress: 31%
Location: So. California
Default

Hi,

I practice Krav Maga 4 or 5 times a week. I have learned that it's important to take my vitamin supplements while LCing, especially my calcium/magnesium combo in the mornings of a class day. It really helps.
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Nov-05-08, 09:24
kbfunTH's Avatar
kbfunTH kbfunTH is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,240
 
Plan: UDS
Stats: 199/190/190 Male 69
BF:12%/11%/6%
Progress: 100%
Location: Pflugerville, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
The weakness is normal and should be expected so take it easy for a while. Since you've cut out carbs, now you must use fat as fuel. This is what you're adapting to right now. It can take anywhere from 4 to 20 weeks depending on several factors. I'd say the younger you are the easier it is.




Kendogirl, it would help you to know your RMR and your total energy output for a day. This might help you range the calories you'll need to consume. Restricting your calories too low will hurt you as well. Low carb is great, but you'll need time to adapt. Also, I believe it's best not to micromanage by adding too many extra fats and just eat a good protein source with naturally occurring fat.

When I was doing 3 hours/day of MMA training several times a week, my energy levels got better the longer I was on a low carb intake. I also knew about how many calories I could eat before gaining weight as well as what I need as a minimum. I stayed somewhere around the middle on most days. As my conditioning improved, my energy levels were adequate.

Last edited by kbfunTH : Wed, Nov-05-08 at 09:39.
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, Nov-17-08, 00:22
ScaTtTerEd ScaTtTerEd is offline
New Member
Posts: 9
 
Plan: unsure/generally low carb
Stats: 185/174/130 Female 5'7.5
BF:?/28??/17-15%
Progress: 20%
Location: Santa Monica, Cali
Default

Hey Girlbug, where do you train? im at krav maga worldwide in los angeles

kendogirl-It takes time i do krav maga, brazilian jj,muy thai, boxing etc, lowcarbing and i feel great but im pretty fat adapted, give it time, and find a way to drink some water, id recommend an anabolic way of dieting too, try carbs once or twice a week- carb ups, preferbly when you lift weights, when your an athlete it might help to have a carb up once in awhile- and it wont hurt, it will help
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Nov-17-08, 16:26
girlbug2's Avatar
girlbug2 girlbug2 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,091
 
Plan: Ketogenic paleo
Stats: 186/167/125 Female 5'4"
BF:trying to quit
Progress: 31%
Location: So. California
Default

Hi Scattered,

I do KM at the Huntington Beach location, also affiliated with Worldwide. I'm level 2 and loving it! I am thinking of going on over to Signal Hill and mooching a free intro class at the 360Club just to see what their program is like. I love to "tour around" martial arts and pick up new ideas.
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Nov-23-08, 14:01
zodea's Avatar
zodea zodea is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 237
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/166/140 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Iowa
Default What should I eat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
The weakness is normal and should be expected so take it easy for a while. Since you've cut out carbs, now you must use fat as fuel. This is what you're adapting to right now. It can take anywhere from 4 to 20 weeks depending on several factors. I'd say the younger you are the easier it is.


I think your saying I'm screwed

I had someone at practice say today that my low carb is the reason I can't go full out for an entire practice. I personally think it's because I am old (44 is old for roller derby), out of shape (but getting better) and new (practicing for 6 weeks).

What/how much should I eat before a practice? We do some dry land training (which is really rough and includes running, various exercises and some weight training (we just use our skates as the weights).

Once we start skating, it is pretty constant for 2 hours. I am totally wiped out by the end of a practice. Pretty worthless for the rest of the day. Practice ended 2 hours ago and I still feel like I am recuperating.

Unlike Kendogirl.... I do get water breaks. Other than that this is the hardest workout of my life. I need to figure out how to keep going longer! And I need an argument about the 'eat more carbs' advice I'm getting.

Thanks!
zodea
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Nov-24-08, 11:24
carlh_uk's Avatar
carlh_uk carlh_uk is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 247
 
Plan: Carb cycling
Stats: 225/164/155 Male 5'8
BF:~15%
Progress: 87%
Location: England, UK
Default

Eat more carbs.

Edit: Around your workouts.

Last edited by carlh_uk : Mon, Nov-24-08 at 11:35.
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Nov-24-08, 12:34
J-lo carb J-lo carb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 268
 
Plan: my plan
Stats: 162.5/148/145 Female 5' 8"
BF:
Progress: 83%
Default

Eat more fat around your workouts!!!!

TRY coconut oil-I swear it gives you energy right away and lasts forever. I'd eat fatty meat an hour or so before you work out, then drink, or however you take it, the coconut oil 20 minutes before you work out.

Your body really does get used to the fat. I have never worked out that hard for that long, but I have done tabata's, then lift, then do aerobics all on two tablespoons of coconut oil in my coffee. I'll admit it may be the mixture of the coffee and coconut oil too. Can you have coffee?
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Nov-24-08, 14:06
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodea
[...]
Unlike Kendogirl.... I do get water breaks. Other than that this is the hardest workout of my life. I need to figure out how to keep going longer! And I need an argument about the 'eat more carbs' advice I'm getting.

Thanks!
zodea


Cells can't use glucose and fatty acids simultaneously. What regulates this is how much glucose is in the bloodstream. What regulates that is how much carbohydrates we eat. Incidentally, this is also how we regulate fat accumulation. Cutting carbs will allow fat to be released from fat cells and will allow cells to use fatty acids for fuel. It's easy to see how we can disrupt these functions by eating carbs.

However, women here on the forum have said they feel better when they eat a bit more carbs. Whether it's around their workout or not I don't know. I don't advise to do this but if you do, go with things like berries instead of grains for example.

If you're like me and simply refuse to eat carbs, then I'd go with J-Lo's advice about coconut oil. Unlike J-Lo, I don't know about it from personal experience but based on what I read about it lately including what she just wrote here, I'd have to agree with her on the effect of coconut oil. If all else fails, there's always the option to eat a bit more animal fat like lard, suet and tallow to name a few. I prefer cured bacon myself.

About the argument to eat more carbs. It's simple, if you eat carbs, you'll use glucose for fuel. If you eat fat, you'll use fat for fuel. But which fat do I use up, you ask? Any fat, including the one in your fat cells. I mean, it's not like you can grow lean by using glucose for fuel since there isn't any in your fat cells to be used up. Unless, of course, you eat some. Then it's back to square one. That's the gist of it.
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