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  #46   ^
Old Thu, Jan-26-06, 10:59
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is online now
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Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/175/175 Male 71.5 inches
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I'm not sure that cutting back on carbs would necessarily result in a cancer getting less glucose. I assume the cancer would be getting supplied with glucose from the blood. As it removed the sugar from the blood, the liver would supply more to keep the blood sugar from dropping too low. As it seems that the liver can produce up to 200 grams of glucose a day, the cancer could get what it needs from that.
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  #47   ^
Old Thu, Jan-26-06, 11:35
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: Paleo 99.5%
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I saw a guy who had a tumour that just drained his blood of glucose. His blood sugar was getting dangerously low, like 35!
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  #48   ^
Old Thu, Jan-26-06, 21:47
TBoneMitch TBoneMitch is offline
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Plan: High Fat/IF
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Location: Montreal, Quebec
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Dodger,

if the liver can only produce 200g of carbs a day, that is still well under what the average american eats...

So theoritically, a keto diet would reduce glucose availability to tumours.

That idea has been explored in a few clinical trials, with some encouraging success:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...9&dopt=Citation

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/47/1/42

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar...i?artid=1276814
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  #49   ^
Old Thu, Jan-26-06, 22:23
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is online now
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Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/175/175 Male 71.5 inches
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Tbone,

Yep,

It would limit the amount available, but not cut off the glucose. Of course any help in limiting the cancer is beneficial.
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  #50   ^
Old Tue, May-09-06, 12:25
ThomasCGT ThomasCGT is offline
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Plan: only carb before workout
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Of course they forgot to telll the ladies that 54% of those with breast cancer got it from the mammograms. They got 20 rads of radiation if they had followed the guidelines, (compared to 30 rads measured in survivors of the insane American nuking of Hiroshima civilians). And, what about all the other causes of cancer, bet they werent even considered. Heavy metals from deodarants, amalgams, food; parasites; tight bras restricting circulation etc. See The Cure For Cancer. Hulda Clark PhD. ND
Live long and prosper... Spock.
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  #51   ^
Old Tue, May-09-06, 13:20
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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This sounds supiciously like someone trying to sell a book.

The radiation you get from a mammogram is .7 msv, which is equal to 3 months of background radiation from just living on Earth.
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  #52   ^
Old Tue, May-09-06, 14:31
LC FP LC FP is offline
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Quote:
It would limit the amount available, but not cut off the glucose.


Mike, I read somewhere (but it's not in the Seyfried article -- T-bone's #3, where I thought it was) that ketone bodies inhibit glycolytic enzymes.

Normal cells generate ATP by both glycolysis (in the cell cytoplasm) and respiration (in mitochondria).

Tumor cells, according to these articles, have dysfunctional mitochondria and they generate most of their ATP from glycolysis. Even if glucose levels are adequate to provide energy for tumor cells due to liver gluconeogenesis, the presence of ketone bodies, (if they inhibit glycolytic enzymes), would diminish the tumor cells ability to produce ATP that way.

So tumor cells would be screwed by a ketogeniic diet. Their mitochondria don't work, and their glycolysis enzymes are inhibited by the ketone bodies. They can't generate enough ATP to maintain their cell membrane integrity, so they swell up and die.

At least that's the theory. I've had some people tell me this is too simplistic, and probably it is. But I'd like to see a head-to-head study of cancer patients treated with usual therapy vs usual therapy plus a ketogenic diet.

I wonder if Atkins foundation would fund one. I'm sure the concept would scare the hell out of the regular funding agencies and of course the drug industry. Especially if they had to stop the study early due to the marked superiority of the KD!!
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  #53   ^
Old Tue, May-09-06, 14:51
ceberezin ceberezin is offline
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Thanks, LC FP, your post clears up a question I've had about whether tumor cells could get sufficient glucose from gluconeogenesis. I'd love to see the study you suggest. Perhaps KD should be combined with intravenous vitamin C therapy, about which I've also read promising reports, as a way of treating cancer.

One more question . . . As per Michael Eades, even under strict ketogenic conditions, ketone bodies only replace about half the glucose requirements for those cells that require glucose but can also use ketone bodies, leaving about 70-80 grams of glucose/day supplied by gluconeogenesis. If ketone bodies ingbit glycolitic enzymes, do they prevent the glycolysis in normal cells that use glucose even under ketogenic conditions?
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  #54   ^
Old Tue, May-09-06, 15:25
LC FP LC FP is offline
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ce

I wish I were an expert in this field, it's very interesting to me --especially the cancer implications. But this is how I think the process works in LCers like us:

If you inhibit glycolytic enzymes I doubt that means you stop them completely, probably just slow them down a little. But tumor cells only get a net of 2 ATPs per molecule of glucose from glycolysis so they're cycling those enzymes as fast as possible, and generating a ton of pyruvate (which is immediately transformed into lactic acid which diffuses out of the cell and becomes glucose again in the liver). So slowing the enzymes down even a little could have a big effect on total ATP generation per minute in the tumor cell.

A normal cell with slow glycolysis enzymes would still produce a lot of pyruvate which would enter normal mitochondria and be transformed into 36 more ATPs per glucose, so they'd still get the full energy complement from the available glucose.

Maybe we could run this past Dr. E...
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  #55   ^
Old Sun, Jun-18-06, 21:43
O Hydrate O Hydrate is offline
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OKAY! I would like everyone on this site to look up, RIGHT NOW, a few facts about diabetes. The most important being that THERE ARE SEVERAL TYPES. If I see ".....which leads to diabetes" one more time, I will look into my options for a lawsuit. I feel that realistically I suffer considerable emotional damage when people mistakenly lump diabetes, and diabetes, all into the type two group. There is also type 1, people! It's chronic, unlike gestational, which for that reason I will not bring up futher. I'm not getting cured, in other words. And it wasn't caused by eating unhealthy foods. Or being grossly obese. Or smiting the devil. Or anything that may have caused type 2. So don't just say diabetes and diabetics WHEN YOU ARE REFERING SOLEY TO TYPE TWO, because it hurts and undermines the rest of us. Please. Have pity on the poor misunderstood masses, here, and add in those two words "type two." And spread the word. The discrimination and misinterpretation needs to stop. We Type One diabetics are people, too.
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  #56   ^
Old Sat, Sep-16-06, 13:42
shelleyros shelleyros is offline
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Plan: general
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Has anyone ever looked into the effect that hormonal birth control has on insulin levels? I read once that during pregnancy we become more insulin resistant in order to ensure that blood sugar circulates longer so the baby can get to it. Perhaps hormonal birth control does the same thing. Permanent drug induced insulin resistance at a non-pathogenic level.....just enough to make us plump and bathe our breast cells in sugar and insulin.....
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  #57   ^
Old Sat, Sep-16-06, 14:56
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WesleyT WesleyT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceberezin
Thanks, LC FP, your post clears up a question I've had about whether tumor cells could get sufficient glucose from gluconeogenesis. I'd love to see the study you suggest. Perhaps KD should be combined with intravenous vitamin C therapy, about which I've also read promising reports, as a way of treating cancer.

One more question . . . As per Michael Eades, even under strict ketogenic conditions, ketone bodies only replace about half the glucose requirements for those cells that require glucose but can also use ketone bodies, leaving about 70-80 grams of glucose/day supplied by gluconeogenesis. If ketone bodies ingbit glycolitic enzymes, do they prevent the glycolysis in normal cells that use glucose even under ketogenic conditions?

why is that?
i beleive every cell thats able to use ketones, will use ketones

besides, remeber TheBear got cancer, he did eat a zero carb diet
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  #58   ^
Old Tue, Mar-13-07, 03:20
missymagoo missymagoo is offline
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i am glad to be back to low carbing again. after reading this article. i just had a annual mammagram yesterday and everything right now is good. low caribng is the answer for me. sue
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  #59   ^
Old Sat, Mar-17-07, 10:28
PG Girl PG Girl is offline
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Default Breast cancer study

This is the first time I've visited this forum and I'm new to the low carb regims........and loving it so far but it's only been 2 weeks.

About the study I noted that what some of the participants ate who had a higher rate of breast cancer were soft drinks and bread! I think soft drinks should be banned - ever looked at the ingredients. I remember a dietician once saying that if you couldn't pronounce an ingredient, you shouldn't be ingesting it! Makes sense to me! As for bread, well, we know it's the sugar and the refined flour that's the killer

But what do I know? My mother is 92 next month and her basic diet is Viva Puff cookies, white bread, and tea......her health is EXCELLENT!
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  #60   ^
Old Sat, Mar-17-07, 11:35
Dodger's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PG Girl
But what do I know? My mother is 92 next month and her basic diet is Viva Puff cookies, white bread, and tea......her health is EXCELLENT!
Having good genes can overcome a lot of bad living habits.
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