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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Nov-26-17, 04:07
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,264
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default Paleo vs. Keto What's the difference?

New article by Phinney and Volek.
New study results why Keto reduces inflammation.
Detailed comparison of these diets.

http://blog.virtahealth.com/paleo-v...the-difference/
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Nov-26-17, 06:17
tess9132 tess9132 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 448
 
Plan: general lc
Stats: 214/156/130 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 69%
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Thanks Janet! You’re the best. I wanted to come on here over Thanksgiving and tell you how grateful I am for your links, but time got away from me. I really do appreciate them.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Nov-27-17, 03:00
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,264
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

You are most welcome, Tess.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Nov-27-17, 20:55
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,999
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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In the past P&V have said that if the sum of all your ketones is above 0.2nM then you're in ketosis. Now they say that Paleo gets BHOB alone all the way up to 0.2-0.3nM but "a Paleo diet seems to be purposefully designed to prevent" nutritional ketosis. Frankly I'm past tired of their shifting definitions.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Nov-28-17, 04:33
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,009
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
In the past P&V have said that if the sum of all your ketones is above 0.2nM then you're in ketosis. Now they say that Paleo gets BHOB alone all the way up to 0.2-0.3nM but "a Paleo diet seems to be purposefully designed to prevent" nutritional ketosis. Frankly I'm past tired of their shifting definitions.


My sense of it all is that the advice keeps changing because the knowledge base keeps growing. For the most part I have stopped chasing ketones and instead concentrate on keeping my carbs low enough so that my bg stays under 100 at all times. I let my ketones take care of themselves. I figure that if I keep glucose low my body as no choice but to produce ketones. If I had cancer or epilepsy I would act differently. Is this the optimal way of doing things? Who knows? I suspect it's beneficial. All signs point to that so I am satisfied.

When I first started eating low carb I followed Dr Bernstein but made it paleo. I've always looked at paleo as more about what not to eat than what you have to eat. For me that meant I didn't eat any fruit except for a few berries and I controlled the amount of nuts and seeds I ate, all to keep the carb count low without venturing into non-paleo food sources. What messed me up, to a great degree, was adding some dairy back in, a non-paleo food and one my body doesn't tolerate. I also don't tolerate eggs and chicken, definitely paleo food. Sometimes it makes sense to follow a plan precisely and other times it makes more sense to figure out what works best for you, using some general principles and trying to understand the science so you don't screw things up for yourself. Be smart. Don't give up thinking. Incorporate the wisdom provided by others with your own wisdom of what your particular body needs and doesn't need.

Jean
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Nov-28-17, 21:16
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,999
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
My sense of it all is that the advice keeps changing because the knowledge base keeps growing.



> P&V are scientists.
> Scientists use data to make their judgments.

Where is their data?
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Mar-19-18, 06:36
sks23cu sks23cu is offline
New Member
Posts: 9
 
Plan: zero-carb ketogenic
Stats: 205/168/150 Male 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Westford, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
> P&V are scientists.
> Scientists use data to make their judgments.

Where is their data?

https://www.virtahealth.com/research
-> https://doi.org/10.1007/s13300-018-0373-9

Last edited by sks23cu : Mon, Mar-19-18 at 07:21.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Mar-19-18, 11:24
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,999
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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I call shenanigans.

The first link has no data on ketones. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. The null set. In fact, it's not even a paper. It's just a web page.

At least the second link is a paper. Unfortunately it also has no data on ketones.

Sorry. You fail.

“In God we trust. All others must bring data.”

So to lose shenanigans, post a link with data on ketones. Lots of data. I just want data. No emotions. No virtue signalling. No change of subject. No cartoons. Data. Just data. Bring data. Quote the data.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Mar-19-18, 11:29
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,999
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Let me offer an example. Here's a link to the paper P&V hang their hat on. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozbkbj6j3...sponse.pdf?dl=0

Note that there is NO DATA on the optimal level of ketosis. None.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 08:51
sks23cu sks23cu is offline
New Member
Posts: 9
 
Plan: zero-carb ketogenic
Stats: 205/168/150 Male 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Westford, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
... to lose shenanigans, post a link with data on ketones. Lots of data. I just want data. No emotions. No virtue signalling. No change of subject. No cartoons. Data. Just data. Bring data. Quote the data.


You do know that a lot of research papers, with the data, are behind paywalls.
At sometime I must have subscribed at some level because when I click this link, https://link.springer.com/article/1...3300-018-0373-9 ,
I see a paper with this (scroll down):
Electronic supplementary material

The online version of this article ( https://doi.org/10.1007/s13300-018-0373-9) contains supplementary material, which is available to authorized users.

Then when I click on that link a full Open Access article appears with tons of data and an option to download a full pdf.

In the pdf is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5ddfuqt8...meline.jpg?dl=0
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 09:12
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,702
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sks23cu
You do know that a lot of research papers, with the data, are behind paywalls.
At sometime I must have subscribed at some level because when I click this link, https://link.springer.com/article/1...3300-018-0373-9 ,
I see a paper with this (scroll down):
Electronic supplementary material

The online version of this article ( https://doi.org/10.1007/s13300-018-0373-9) contains supplementary material, which is available to authorized users.

Then when I click on that link a full Open Access article appears with tons of data and an option to download a full pdf.

In the pdf is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5ddfuqt8...meline.jpg?dl=0


You don't seem to be addressing inflammabl's contention. Of course this assumes that I know what he's getting at, but...

I don't think he's questioning whether a low carb or even a ketogenic diet has the benefits shown in the data you're posting. The question is, are the benefits dependent on the level of ketosis itself? There are studies showing benefit of ketone supplementation itself, but natural ketosis comes with other things, the decrease in carbohydrate itself, the increase in blood free fatty acids, lower insulin, etc. that could themselves be factors, direct effects of ketosis aren't isolated there. Even with epilepsy, somewhat less ketogenic approaches such as Modified Atkins seem to be as effective as the strictest ketogenic plans, for a lot of kids. Even if a kid does better on a stricter diet vs. Modified Atkins--they'll get there mostly by restricting protein. Do they do better because ketones are higher? Or because protein is a little lower?
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 10:32
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,999
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sks23cu
You do know that a lot of research papers, with the data, are behind paywalls.

Of course it's behind a paywall. All of my published papers are behind paywalls.

Note that since you don't have access to the data then you literally do not know what you are talking about and are taking it on faith. Literally. Now I'm not a fan of the word "literally" as it's been overused by teenagers to exaggerate but in this case it's the right word. You LITERALLY don't know what you are talking about.

I, on the other hand, got access to the P&V paper which they cite and posted it. The reason I feel comfortable doing so is that once upon a time P&V posted it on their site but now the link is broken. Fishy. Then to find out their paper does not substantiate what they say, that there is an optimal level of ketosis, their whole scientific premise comes crashing down. It's past fishy. They have lost scientific credibility.

Then with the failure of the other LC advocates in the NuSci study we find that most, if not all, of the narrative built around why LC works, and it does work, has no basis.

The reason you can't show the data isn't because it's behind a paywall. The reason is that it doesn't exist. Prove me wrong. You can't.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 10:41
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,999
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
The question is, are the benefits dependent on the level of ketosis itself?


Yes that's right. Dr. Atkins said that the benefits are NOT a function of the level of ketosis. He wanted us to "climb the carb ladder", find our carb limit then take a step down.

Today Dr. Westman agrees saying that he does not find there is an optimum level of ketosis.

Now today with this misinformation given by P&V people actually do think that more ketones is better for weight loss or at least there is an optimum level somewhere short of ketoacidosis.

Last edited by inflammabl : Sat, Mar-24-18 at 10:57.
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 10:42
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,999
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Here is Steve Phinney promoting his flimflammery, https://optimisingnutrition.com/201...e-relationship/ . Drill down to his papers and you'll find there is no basis for an optimal level of ketosis and Dr's Atkins and Westman should be respected over P&V.

Last edited by inflammabl : Sat, Mar-24-18 at 10:47.
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Mar-26-18, 07:45
sks23cu sks23cu is offline
New Member
Posts: 9
 
Plan: zero-carb ketogenic
Stats: 205/168/150 Male 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Westford, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl

Lots of info!
I don't worry about my ketone blood levels. I do have a Ketonix that I used to get a qualitative idea of my glucose levels early on. But now that I've gone full zero carb (no plants) I don't bother anymore. Especially since the hard medical results are remission of: obesity, T2 diabetes, high volume metastatic prostate cancer, acid reflux, ...
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