I'm a long-distance runner (half marathons and marathons) and have a weekly mileage of about 60-85km, depending on what I'm training for.

I'm not interested in following Atkins itself, but just a general lower carb lifestyle. However, I'm also in need of the lower glycemic carbs because of the kind of running I do. I've done a bit of research through runner's and triathletes websites and have found opinions vary quite a bit on low carb lifestyles.

Is anyone else here involved in long-distance running, and if so, what kind of plan do you follow for decreasing carbs, but still keeping the minimum requirements for speed training, distance training, etc?

Any opinions are welcome. I'm open.

Marcia

"The miracle isn't that I finished...the miracle is that I had the courage to start" - John "the Penguin" Bingham


Darn, I just realized there's an exercise folder, and this probably should have been posted there. Can the administrators move it?

Hey,
To answer your question, yes there are long distance runners here who follow lowcarb plans.
I've done Atkins for over a year, and I have been a runner for about 15 years. I favor the longer distances, race 10K's nad half marathons regularly and just did my first marathon in June.
Carbs are really overrated among runners. Many runners eat only carbs, sacrificing protein and not eating enough fat! When I ate the typical low-fat, high carb way my performance and energy levels were not so great. After adjusting to the lower carb lifestyle, I am much stronger and fitter and a better runner. I eat very healthy, non processed foods with high nutrient values. My msucles are like rocks! Dietary fat is a great fuel, andt he amount of protein involved in a lower carb lifestyle is muscle sparing.
It is going to be hard at first to adjust to the lower carbs. If you are going to do a lower carb plan I would suggest not doing any of the induction phases which most palns start out with. If you are going to do Atkins or South Beach, you would probably want to start in their pre-maintenance phase.
I eat very low in carbs, getting my only carbs from veggies (okay, and from dark chocolate as well, but hey, why run if you can't eat any chocolate). At first I was totally ZAPPED in energy, but I eventually adjusted to the lower carbs. In my marathon training, I found I HAD to eat some carbs before my long (15+miles) runs and I would take GU during the run.
Hope that helps some!

My dad (62 and two marathons a year) and my sister (two marathons a year, when she's not pregnant, which seems to be often these days) like the long distances. Neither of them will have anything to do with low-carb.

I've spent a lot of time on running forums and while it's hard to debate with most of those folks about low-carb and running, the question that seems unresolved is that low-carb hurts performance (times, and training stamina in general).

I would suspect that it does hurt performance, but I have no inclination to test this on myself, mostly because the human body is not physically or chemically adapted for long-distance running. While I do believe that low-carb makes for a healthier anything (runner, jumper, juggler, or couch potato), perhaps an unnatural activity requires and unnatural diet (high carb)?

I just wondered your thoughts on this. I do also agree that runners seem to have taken the Carbo Load to an extreme in the sense that they presume that if they are ALWAYS carbo loaded, then they are best ready to train and run at a moment's notice, kind of defeating the whole point of a Carbo Load.

Anyhow, it's always most fruitful to discuss subject with a low-carber, so I just thought I'd respond and hope that this thread is a good one.

I can't personally help you out, because I only do shorter-distance slower jogging myself, but you might want to heck out Galadriell's gym log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...750#post2436750) -- she's a LC marathoner.

I am one of those runners who can run on very little carbs.

If my training goes anaerobic (hills, speed, day of race, weight training), I take 25-50g of carbs before the workout and maybe 25g carbs afterwards if weight loss is not a goal. During weight loss, I take only protein (e.g. whey protein) after the workout.

On long runs, I go 90 seconds slower per mile than half marathon pace to avoid bonking. On warm days or hilly courses, I drop the pace even more or put in a walk break every 6 miles. I try to keep my pace low enough to avoid using an energy gel. I think there is a lot of value in Galloway-style walk breaks on bad days. I use a sugar free electrolyte replacement (Endurolytes) to get electrolyte balance and prevent muscle cramping.

This routine isn't going to make the Boston Marathon. My long runs are very conservative and I have no reserve tank to fallback on if I take chances with pace on the long run. But this routine will get you past the wall without joining the hordes of carbo-loaded bonked runners. And this routine will get you some nice 5K and 10K times, especially if you have too much body fat.

I have been following Mittleman's Slow Burn program. (See his book: Slow Burn). He is one of the best ultramarthoner (really ultra - 6-day races, coast to coast races etc.) of the world, and having one of the stirctest "LC" diet. Strict not in numbers but for example in banning sweets (not only sugar, but sweeteners, and milk, and fruit, etc.). He is sharing his diet, so you can see if you like it. I liked it a lot, so adapted it almost in 100%. With fantastic results. Improving speed, endurance, even weight training performance - meanwhile losing fat and reshaping my body. It is NOT a weight loss diet, but a long distance performance improving way of eating.
He gives detailed training programs too.

I usually have 120-140 gr fat, 50-60 net carbs, 120-140 gr protein. On my long run (2-3 hours) days too. I prefer to run on empty stomach, having some green vegetable drinks (a la Mittleman) if the weather is hot.

Here you can read a little preview:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showpost...3&postcount=304
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showpost...5&postcount=321

P.S.: LONG LIVE GALLOWAY! LONG LIVE BINGHAM!!!!! I got the courage from Bingham, the training plan from Galloway .

Only one remark. From the 160,000 calories stored in the body only about 2500 some from sugar, and 134,500 from fat. You have enough CARBS only to run around 18-20 miles, while you have enough FAT to run across America. So maybe the human body WAS designed for endurance, only we have forgot how to use the fat instead of carbs.
You can find many thoughts about this in both Mittleman's or Galloway's books. Both gives step by step advices how to change your running from carb fuel mode to fat fuel mode.

Adaptation. Human body is able to adapt to "unnatural activities" on high mountains, in deep ocean, in hot desert, in extreme cold, in zero gravity.... Running a couple of miles on FAT is nothing compared to those .

Have wonderful long weekend runs for all of you . I have to run .

Eva

I started running after I went low-carb and do just fine in the 10k distances. I never take in more than 2 or 3 grams of carbs with breakfast before an event and usually no more than 2 or 3 grams after, for a snack.

Question for TrailRunner and Eva:

I've worked my running base up to 10-12 miles a week in preparation for the triathlon that I did last Saturday (it included a level 10k run at near sea-level altitude). My next event is another triathlon in October that includes a 10k run (at high altitude, Lake Tahoe, about a mile above sea-level), and later that month I am doing an event that includes a 10k distance that alternates between mountain biking and trail-running, every other mile. My question is: How much weekly running should I maintain in preparation for these events?

Should I keep my weekly running distances at 10-12 miles?

Jeff

P.S. Sorry to threadjack.

LoCarbJ-
I used to do triathlons and a rule of thumb that I learned was that your weekly milegae should center around 3 times the length of that event in your race - and no longer. So, if your race includes a 6 mile run, you would want to do no more than 18 miles a week running. you can stress one event each week to avoid overtraining....a hard running week will mean an easy swimming week, etc.
Another important thing is training yourself to be a really, really efficient swimmer. DRILLS, DRILLS, DRILLS are your friends, rather than laps and laps of swimming with poor technique. You want to be able to swim without using up too much precious energy. When I raced I learned that Im' never going to be able to swim that great in the race (roughwater swimming) so I just wante dto be fit enough, swim-wise so that the swim wouldn't tire me out too much for the next two events, which I was better at anyways.
okay, enough lecturing from me!

Jeff,
considering your very busy exersice schedule (everything other than the triathlon kayaking, running, biking) I would say 2x30min, 1x60 min minimum, and - seconding climbergrl - 3x60 min maximum. My ideal would be 2x45 min 1x60 min. (Every other week you might substitute one 45 min-er for a 30 min speedwork - fartlek, tempo, interval.)

(30 min runs usually either lack of warm up, cool down or if you do both, the "effective" running time is too short.)

I am looking forward to hear the details of the Lake Tahoe race. They have a marathon too. We are considering it next year, if we do not have luck with the DC Marine Marathon lottery.

Eva

I like it! Very nice observation, and true enough. I just wonder why anyone--prehistoric or modern--would actually need to run long distances, excepting recreation. Makes me think that a marathon is completely out of the experience of human beings, which is what makes it such a challenge, of course. I think that if we were designed for that kind of thing, it wouldn't be so damn hard to do.

Another question for the low-carb runners: What about hitting The Wall? Any experiences or comments about whether you're better off at the 20-mile mark than your high-carb racemates?

Congrats on the marathon!

Believe me, I know that some runners have a carb-fetish. I've read some interesting stuff, to say the least, on runner's MBs! Most seem to go along with idea of an increased protein intake being important - muscle recovery after quality runs (long, speed, hills, etc.). I confess that my intake of protein from actual meat is not too high, but I do try to go with a lot of other protein souces to make up for it. The fat content of my diet is about where it should be - not low, but not high either. I do know that fat is important for long-distance energy, so I've never gone with the low-fat idea. I've just always gone along with "everything in moderation", including carbs, but now want to decrease that a bit. I'm pretty good about keeping added sugar out of my diet, but the natural stuff, well, I don't know that I would want to (fruits).

Yah, my boss and her husband have done Atkins for a few months now (It has done wonders for them!), but she did say that I probably would not want to do the induction. And quite frankly, even though I've always had incredible willpower (except for when those bloody hormones go out of wack), I don't know that I'd be able to do it - it sounds so hard! She suggested South Beach to me, as did my doctor. I'm going to look into that, but I'll have to set aside some $$ to get the book, I guess (I'm always on a budget, it seems! LOL).

Oh, and I'm with you on the chocolate, except for I prefer the more healthy version as a special treat now and then - milk chocolate! Besides, chocolate is a vegetable - it comes from the cocoa bean and beans are vegetables. Please don't tell me I'm stretching it a bit!

Marcia

"The miracle isn't that I finished...the miracle is that I had the courage to start" - John "the Penguin" Bingham

As you know, most of the runner's forums are pretty anti-low carb. Not all, certainly. Some brave souls have spoken up and described how it has worked for them, and that's what has got me thinking about it.

The human body may not be born for long-distance running, but it certainly can adapt. The body is an amazing thing - how it changes and adapts for maximum output, depending on what we ask of it. Just amazing! If you'd told me 4 years ago, when I was about 180lbs and a size 14-16 that I'd be running today, let alone long-distance, I'd have been ROFLing hysterically. How things change, eh?

Carbo-loading is not something I've ever focused on, except for the day or two before a race. There seems to be controversy with regard to that, too. Everybody's got opinions, it seems! lol

Marcia

"The miracle isn't that I finished...the miracle is that I had the courage to start" - John "the Penguin" Bingham

I'm with you on slower long runs. No need to run at race pace for those - that's what speed training is for (intervals and the like). Also, I'd never be able to keep it up. Races are a different thing all together - a person's competitiveness with the others that are racing, as well as the comradery and enthusiasm, does wonders! I dislike the gels - UCK!!!! I will not use them. I've not heard of Endurolytes before, just the usual electrolyte replacements - Gatordade, etc.

I don't usually have a problem with bonking. I actually feel better, the longer I run. Well....except for those last few kms of the marathon last summer, I confess! Speaking of Boston, I've always had it in the back of my mind, but qualifying at 3:45 (my age group) seems a wee bit unrealistic for me. My goal for the marathon this October is 4:00 (and it is a Boston qualifier). We'll see...

Marcia

"The miracle isn't that I finished...the miracle is that I had the courage to start" - John "the Penguin" Bingham

Awesome! Thanks for the links and the breakdown of your dietary intake - much appreciated. You know, I've heard a lot about Galloway, and I've certainly read some of his stuff in Runner's World, but no book yet. Seems like you highly recommend it! Okay, so one addition to my "want" list...

It's interesting what you were saying about carb vs fat mileage. Don't most runners say they hit the wall at about 18 miles? Hmmmm....

"I have to run" Yah, me, too!

Marcia

"The miracle isn't that I finished...the miracle is that I had the courage to start" - John "the Penguin" Bingham

2-3gm?? Holy cow, that is low! Is that just for the 10ks, or do you increase it a bit for longer distances?

BTW, no problem about the threadjacking!

Marcia

"The miracle isn't that I finished...the miracle is that I had the courage to start" - John "the Penguin" Bingham