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  #226   ^
Old Mon, Jul-13-09, 09:40
PS Diva's Avatar
PS Diva PS Diva is offline
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Plan: Low GI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
I have been buying these Vitamin D softgels from iHerb, but am thinking of switching to these, which are recommended by The Vitamin D Council on their website.
Is that enough magnesium? Or do you supplement with still more magnesium?
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  #227   ^
Old Mon, Jul-13-09, 10:03
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Plan: Mostly carnivory
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Didn't know that product existed. It's not even listed in their main bio-tech-pharm site (at least from what I can see).

Not impressed with it though. I'll get my K2 via MK-4 (the animal source) separately. "Like magnesium, the best source of Vitamin K is green leafy vegetables, which many of us consume less frequently than we should." Unfortunately they're talking apples and oranges. They're not a good source of K2 MK-7, which is the type they put in their supplement. K1 is not K2. And K2 MK-7 is not K2 MK-4 (Price's K2).

And synthetic A as retinyl palmitate?... No thanks. It's such a trivial amount, but even then, more reason to rely upon foods and other more natural sourced supplements. If you ever see the extremely lengthy and complicated process it requires to create synthetic palmitate A chemically, you'll understand why I say 'no thanks.' I'm actually surprised that this is endorsed by the D Council considering their tight position about obtaining pre-formed vitamin A and this supplement containing just that (albeit a small amount) and synthetic to boot! It's like bio-tech is on board with the synergy & need for vitamin A for D to work (like Price foundation has continued to communicate), yet the product is endorsed by the D council even though it contradicts one of their previously firmly stated positions about pre-formed vitamin A directly competing with and blocking vitamin D's activity in the body.

It also contains soy ingredients. Overall, not a big fan. Very 'marketing.' I'm going to continue to stick with the regular 5K IU D3 capsules and my current adjuncts that are of higher quality than those contained in the Plus supplement.

Last edited by Jayppers : Mon, Jul-13-09 at 10:21.
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  #228   ^
Old Mon, Jul-13-09, 10:04
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PS Diva
Is that enough magnesium? Or do you supplement with still more magnesium?
It seems a bit low on magnesium from my perspective. If you look here you can see what Krispin suggests.
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  #229   ^
Old Mon, Jul-13-09, 10:12
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Plan: Mostly carnivory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PS Diva
Is that enough magnesium? Or do you supplement with still more magnesium?
No, but as their ingredients PDF outlines...

"Our goal with all these five co-factors was the same, to supply not all you need, but enough to give Vitamin D a boost."
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  #230   ^
Old Mon, Jul-13-09, 10:21
amandawald amandawald is offline
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Plan: Ray Peat (not low-carb)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutchinson
No but I've been suggesting try to improve sleep hygiene and just recently, because of the heat I've started using an eye mask so we can have the windows/curtains open but my eyes are tricked into thinking the room is darker than it is in fact. I do think it helps get a better quality sleep.

Thanks there is so much going on here it's very easy to miss the goodies.


Hey there Mr Hutchinson !

Funny you should mention trying to improve your sleeping habits: I'm trying to do the same. Unfortunately, one of the improvements I am going to have to make is not to sit reading stuff on my PC in the late evening, as I have noticed that I tend to get kind of "wired" when I do that... Which doesn't put me in sleep mode.

I also use sleep eyeshades - or just a silk scarf draped over my eyes - in order to sleep better and it really does work. If I get the chance, I have always liked to take an afternoon nap (though, according to some, this is NOT a good idea as it "disturbs the circadian rhythm"), and I usually use some kind of eyeshade to help me get to sleep. The best thing to get me to wake up again is to take it off. If I don't, I could sleep forever!!!

And I know what you mean about "missing the goodies": I still have to read the links in the Vitamin D Newsletter about magnesium and vitamin D...

And, I think you would be better off reading the thread on this forum about the T.S. Wiley book than buying it. The thread is quite interesting reading and tells what you basically need to know about the main tips, I think. As far as I could tell, she had made one major blunder, which is that she forgot that some parts of the world have NO daylight for a time in winter - like in northernmost Scandinavia - and in the summer they have a period of NO darkness. She apparently recommends that we adapt our sleeping cycles to when it is dark or light, which means that the poor Scandinavians would get no sleep in summer and have to spend all day in bed in winter! I am trying to get to bed earlier right now, and not stay up for too long after it gets dark, but in winter, when it is dark at 4.30pm already, I certainly won't be putting on my jimjams! I may just try getting to bed at around 9pm.

Sweet dreams!!!

amanda
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  #231   ^
Old Tue, Jul-14-09, 09:13
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Plan: Muscle Centric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PS Diva
Is that enough magnesium? Or do you supplement with still more magnesium?
I supplement with more, usually between 500-750mg per day.
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  #232   ^
Old Tue, Jul-14-09, 09:15
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amandawood
And, I think you would be better off reading the thread on this forum about the T.S. Wiley book than buying it. The thread is quite interesting reading and tells what you basically need to know about the main tips, I think.
The thread is very interesting and there's lots of other relevant info, but you'll be missing a great deal more if you decide not to read the book, IMO
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  #233   ^
Old Wed, Jul-15-09, 04:36
amandawald amandawald is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
The thread is very interesting and there's lots of other relevant info, but you'll be missing a great deal more if you decide not to read the book, IMO


Oh no!!! I was hoping I'd be able to stop buying books for a while!

amanda
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  #234   ^
Old Wed, Jul-15-09, 08:03
black57 black57 is offline
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Demi, I was reading your timely newspaper article. I am going to send it to the local news tomorrow. They are doing a story about California's dangerous sunshine and how we should protect ourselves against it. I am going to dare them to come up to the plate and bat this ( vitamin D ) story out of the field.
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  #235   ^
Old Wed, Jul-15-09, 13:57
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black57
Demi, I was reading your timely newspaper article. I am going to send it to the local news tomorrow. They are doing a story about California's dangerous sunshine and how we should protect ourselves against it. I am going to dare them to come up to the plate and bat this ( vitamin D ) story out of the field.
Make sure you report what happens back here
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  #236   ^
Old Wed, Jul-15-09, 13:59
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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From Science Daily Online:

Quote:
Vitamin D, Curcumin May Help Clear Amyloid Plaques Found In Alzheimer's Disease

ScienceDaily (July 15, 2009) — UCLA scientists and colleagues from UC Riverside and the Human BioMolecular Research Institute have found that a form of vitamin D, together with a chemical found in turmeric spice called curcumin, may help stimulate the immune system to clear the brain of amyloid beta, which forms the plaques considered the hallmark of Alzheimer's disease.

The early research findings, which appear in the July issue of the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease, may lead to new approaches in preventing and treating Alzheimer's by utilizing the property of vitamin D3 — a form of vitamin D — both alone and together with natural or synthetic curcumin to boost the immune system in protecting the brain against amyloid beta.

Vitamin D3 is an essential nutrient for bone and immune system health; its main source is sunshine, and it is synthesized through the skin. Deficiencies may occur during winter months or in those who spend a lot of time indoors, such as Alzheimer's patients.

"We hope that vitamin D3 and curcumin, both naturally occurring nutrients, may offer new preventive and treatment possibilities for Alzheimer's disease," said Dr. Milan Fiala, study author and a researcher at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA and the Veterans Affairs Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System.

Using blood samples from nine Alzheimer's patients, one patient with mild cognitive impairment and three healthy control subjects, scientists isolated monocyte cells, which transform into macrophages that act as the immune system's clean-up crew, traveling through the brain and body and gobbling up waste products, including amyloid beta. Researchers incubated the macrophages with amyloid beta, vitamin D3 and natural or synthetic curcumin.

The synthetic curcuminoid compounds were developed in the laboratory of John Cashman at the Human BioMolecular Research Institute, a nonprofit institute dedicated to research on diseases of the human brain.Researchers found that naturally occurring curcumin was not readily absorbed, that it tended to break down quickly before it could be utilized and that its potency level was low, making it less effective than the new synthetic curcuminoids.

"We think some of the novel synthetic compounds will get around the shortcomings of curcumin and improve the therapeutic efficacy," Cashman said.

The team discovered that curcuminoids enhanced the surface binding of amyloid beta to macrophages and that vitamin D strongly stimulated the uptake and absorption of amyloid beta in macrophages in a majority of patients.

Previous research by the team demonstrated that the immune genes MGAT III and TLR-3 are associated with the immune system's ability to better ingest amyloid beta. In this earlier work, Fiala noted, it was shown that there are two types of Alzheimer's patients: Type 1 patients, who respond positively to curcuminoids, and Type II patients, who do not.

"Since vitamin D and curcumin work differently with the immune system, we may find that a combination of the two or each used alone may be more effective — depending on the individual patient," he said.

Fiala noted that this is early laboratory research and that no dosage of vitamin D or curcumin can be recommended at this point. Larger vitamin D and curcumin studies with more patients are planned.

The study was funded by the Human BioMolecular Research Institute, the Alzheimer's Association and MP Biomedicals LLC, a global life sciences and diagnostics company dedicated to Alzheimer's disease research. Fiala is a consultant for MP Biomedicals and also served in the company's speakers bureau.

Additional study authors include Ava Masoumi, Ben Goldenson, Hripsime Avagyan, Justin Zaghi, Michelle Mahanian, Martin Hewison, Araceli Espinosa-Jeffrey and Phillip T. Liu, of the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA; Senait Ghirami, Ken Abel, Xuying Zheng and John Cashman, of the Human BioMolecular Research Institute; and Mathew Mizwicki, of the department of biochemistry at UC Riverside.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...90715131558.htm
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  #237   ^
Old Wed, Jul-15-09, 21:08
black57 black57 is offline
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Plan: atkins/intermit. fasting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
Make sure you report what happens back here



Will do.
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  #238   ^
Old Thu, Jul-16-09, 08:42
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Have just come across this interesting piece, where Barbara Gilchrest, a MED professor and former chair of dermatology, and Michael Holick, a School of Medicine professor of medicine, physiology, and biophysics discuss the risks and benefits of the sun:


Quote:
Oh, That Summer Glow: Healthy or Harmful?

Summer’s finally here, and with it the sunshine controversy.

Recent research on the multiple health benefits of vitamin D, stimulated by sun exposure, has led Michael Holick, a School of Medicine professor of medicine, physiology, and biophysics, to argue that many of us could use a few more rays; an overblown fear of sun exposure has exacerbated a common deficiency of vitamin D, he says, which strengthens bones and protects against certain cancers and cardiovascular disease.

But Barbara Gilchrest, a MED professor and former chair of dermatology, points to nearly 70,000 new cases of melanoma (and more than 8,600 melanoma deaths) every year in the United States. She contends that the public already underapplies sunscreen and that eating more vitamin D–rich food, such as salmon, milk, and fortified cereals, should be enough to cover any “D” deficiencies.

BU Today asked Gilchrest and Holick to discuss the controversy face-to-face, or at least screen-to-screen, excerpted in the video which can be accessed here: http://www.bu.edu/today/2009/07/14/...lthy-or-harmful


An edited transcript of their longer conversation follows.

Gilchrest: Hello, I’m Barbara Gilchrest, prior chair of the department of dermatology here at Boston University. I’m here with my colleague Mike Holick. Mike?

Holick: I’m Mike Holick, a professor of medicine, physiology, and biophysics, and a former professor of dermatology at Boston University Medical Center.

Gilchrest: We are here this morning to discuss the pseudocontroversy between vitamin D sufficiency and sun exposure. This has been a very contentious topic in the media, of considerable interest to dermatologists, nutritionists, and endocrinologists. We have several specific questions frequently asked by the media and by our patients, and Mike and I would like to try to explain them. The first question that has been posed is, what is sensible sun exposure? Would you like to respond to that, Mike?

Holick: Humans evolved in sunlight, and we’ve always depended on the sun for our vitamin D requirement, because you can’t get it all from your diet. I’ve always recommended sensible sun exposure, which is maybe no more than 5 to 10 minutes on arms and legs, a couple of times a week here in Boston from about mid-April until about mid-September, followed by good sun protection, and always wearing sun protection on your face.

Gilchrest: I would completely agree with that recommendation. The difficulty has been that this safe sun exposure message has been heard by many teenagers and young adults as let’s go to the beach all day without sunscreen. It has also suggested to many people that safe sun practices will prohibit them from having an adequate vitamin D level. A few minutes a day, several times a week of unprotected sun exposure on limited parts of the body is completely reasonable, but it’s not what we see young people doing at the beach.

Holick: I agree. But as you know, young people have been doing this forever. Back in the ’60s and ’70s they were out there putting baby oil on.

Gilchrest: Which is exactly why we have an epidemic of skin cancer, more than a million cases a year in this country. In addition, essentially everyone by middle age in this society has unattractive photoaging changes in their skin. You mentioned how we evolved in sunlight, and that’s certainly true. Nature set up a wonderful system for people who are going to be dead by age 40. But today most people are living into their 70s and 80s and 90s, and it is those individuals who enjoyed unlimited sun exposure in their youth who are having such terrible problems with chronic sun damage and skin cancer.

And although I am aware that you and others are concerned that many people have less than optimal vitamin D levels, we have a pretty healthy developed world. People are living into their 80s on average. These are healthy people, and there’s no shortage of the next generation. So it would seem that we are managing to get adequate vitamin D from the combination of sun exposure and diet, and supplements, which are used by many individuals, particularly if they are concerned about their vitamin D sufficiency.

Holick: The problem with that concept is that more than 50 percent of the world’s population is vitamin D–deficient. And last year, we showed that even among healthy adults in Boston, essentially 100 percent were vitamin D–deficient.

Gilchrest: There’s a problem with your definition of deficiency. It has classically meant a state in which there is an illness, where there is a health problem that is correctable by giving additional vitamin D. I cannot accept your statement that 100 percent of the population is vitamin D–deficient. You mean that their 25 hydroxy vitamin D levels during the winter fall below what you and some others would consider to be optimal levels?

Holick: No. What we’re saying is that your body responds by removing calcium from your skeleton if you don’t have a blood level of vitamin D at least 20 nanograms per milliliter. Anything less than that is considered to be vitamin D deficiency.

Gilchrest: So it is your opinion that 100 percent of people in Boston during the winter have a disease that would be correctable by vitamin D supplements?

Holick: What we’re saying is that they have an increase in parathyroid hormone levels, and as a result, they’re stealing calcium out of their skeletons because they can’t efficiently absorb the calcium they get from their diet due to insufficient vitamin D. And so yes, that’s why even young and middle-aged adults lose an average of about a quarter to half a percent of their bone mass per year. If you had adequate calcium and vitamin D on board, you would prevent that.

Gilchrest: Perhaps we should move along to question number two, which is: have Americans gone overboard when it comes to protecting themselves from the sun?

Holick: A lot of the dermatologists had been advocating abstinence from direct sun exposure. I think that’s put people at risk for vitamin D deficiency. We showed that under controlled conditions, if you put on sunscreen with the sun protection factor of 30, you reduce your ability to make vitamin D in your skin by as much as 99 percent. We showed in a group of farmers that when they wore sunscreen all the time, by the end of the winter, being outside all the time, essentially all of them were vitamin D–deficient. So I think that unprotected sun exposure like we had talked about before — 15 minutes a couple of times a week on arms and legs — is not unreasonable, followed by good sun protection. But I don’t think suggesting abstinence from any direct sun exposure is a healthy recommendation.

Gilchrest: I think you’re somewhat overstating the position of the American Academy of Dermatology. Nobody, no healthy individual, is abstinent from sun exposure. We are not talking here about very elderly or very unhealthy individuals. We’re talking about healthy teenagers and young adults who are outdoors every day. They probably have a good hour on average of exposure, hopefully protected by sunscreen, and that will certainly allow them the equivalent of your unprotected sun exposure 5 to 10 or 15 minutes a day. You get that sun exposure through your sunscreen. While it is possible to use an SPF 30 sunscreen as requested by the manufacturer to block 97 percent of the UV energy that causes cancer and causes vitamin D production, most people don’t use their sunscreens that way. It’s well established that almost everyone applies their sunscreen in a manner that permits much, much more transmission of UV, on average probably 80 percent protection rather than 97 percent protection, even with the very high SPF sunscreen. So I just can’t accept your suggestion that wearing a sunscreen prevents vitamin D production or, alas, prevents chronic sun damage.

Holick: Again, putting it into perspective, the American Academy of Dermatology in November of last year came out with a physician statement arguing that you should never be exposed to direct sunlight without some protection. They urged people worried about their vitamin D requirement to get it from their diet or a supplement, which of course is unrealistic.

Gilchrest: Excuse me, Mike — a supplement is unrealistic?

Holick: It’s unrealistic to think that you’re going to get every child and adult in the United States to take a vitamin D supplement every day. And so putting things in perspective again, teenagers are at high risk for vitamin D deficiency. Researchers showed at Children’s Hospital that more than 50 percent of teenagers are vitamin D–deficient throughout the year in Boston. It’s been demonstrated that teenagers who are vitamin D–deficient have more than double the risk of developing high blood pressure, high blood sugar …

Gilchrest: I think we’ve covered the fact that vitamin D is important and that you can take a vitamin D supplement. CVS sells 1,000 international units for five cents per capsule, which I think most people would feel is highly adequate, even if you are avoiding sun.

Holick: Actually it’s not.

Gilchrest: It’s not?

Holick: In a study last year, we showed that among healthy young and middle-aged Bostonians getting 1,000 units of vitamin D a day, not one person was vitamin D sufficient, meaning a blood level of greater than 30 nanograms per milliliter, which is important for reducing risk of common cancers, autoimmune diseases, infectious diseases, etc.

Gilchrest: There’s a lot of debate not only among dermatologists, nutritionists, nephrologists, and endocrinologists about what constitutes a healthy level of vitamin D.

Holick: I don’t think that’s quite true, Barbara. The National Kidney Foundation guidelines specifically say that all patients with kidney disease have to have a blood level of 25 hydroxy vitamin D above 30 nanograms per milliliter.

Gilchrest: Not everyone has kidney disease. We’re talking here about healthy young people. I have spoken with nephrologists at meetings and a vitamin D workshop, and there was a lot of concern that pushing everyone’s vitamin D level sky high with supplements or sun exposure or whatever might increase the risk of kidney stones.

Holick: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and a lot of nephrologists, unfortunately are in that position. It’s the National Kidney Foundation, the expert nephrologists, telling their nephrologists to get the blood levels of vitamin D above 30 nanograms per milliliter. There is no evidence that you increase the risk of kidney stones by increasing your vitamin D intake, contrary to popular belief.

Gilchrest: There has been an increased incidence of kidney stones in some published studies in which vitamin D supplementation was used to increase vitamin D levels.

Holick: That was only in the Women’s Health Initiative, and if you read that study carefully, they did not control the calcium intake in those women. Those women were taking up to two grams of calcium a day, which would put them at increased risk for kidney stones, not the vitamin D. They were only on 400 units of that a day.

Gilchrest: Clearly this is a very passionate topic for us. The next question is …

Holick: But I don’t think we really discussed the importance of vitamin D for health. We know that it’s important for preventing rickets in children. What young and middle-aged adults don’t realize is that a lot of the aches and pains in their bones and muscles by the end of the winter arecaused by vitamin D deficiency. And as you’re well aware, a lot of epidemiologic studies have related vitamin D deficiency with increased risk of common cancers and autoimmune diseases, and even infectious diseases.

Gilchrest: Unfortunately, they are all confounded by lifestyle variables, such as obesity and many other factors, Mike — you know that.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/editpost...tpost&p=7858795
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  #239   ^
Old Thu, Jul-16-09, 10:27
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
Have just come across this interesting piece, where Barbara Gilchrest, a MED professor and former chair of dermatology, and Michael Holick, a School of Medicine professor of medicine, physiology, and biophysics discuss the risks and benefits of the sun:
In case others here aren't aware Gilchrest sacked Holick when he published his book The UV Advantage. I'm not surprised they couldn't get them to sit in the same room I'm surprised they are even prepared to speak to each other.
UK readers note that BOSTON USA is at latitude 42 whereas BOSTON UK is latitude 52 much further North so the sun exposure time Holick suggests for USA will not be sufficient at our latitude given the chance.
It's a pity that neither of them seem to have sussed that your vulnerability to skin cancer depends partly on your diet nor appear to have grasped that sunscreens work by shifting UVB light into the UVA spectrum thereby increasing the damage and extending the time people can expose their skin. YouTube - Skin Cancer/Sunscreen - the Dilemma

I don't think Dr Cannell thinks much to her
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  #240   ^
Old Thu, Jul-16-09, 11:23
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Plan: Muscle Centric
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From Dr Briffa's blog:


Quote:
My vitamin D results are in…

Posted By Dr John Briffa On July 16, 2009

Over the last couple of years or so I have developed quite an interest in vitamin D. It seems like a week doesn’t go by when some study or other has unearthed a potential new benefit for this substance, or some research turns up results that strengthen and support previous work. The evidence as it stands suggests Vitamin D appears to have the capacity to ward off, among other things, cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, multiple sclerosis, muscle pain, osteoporosis and excess weight.

I’ve also been trying to get a handle on what a good level of bodily vitamin D would be. I don’t believe much in ‘reference ranges’ for vitamin D and other things. These, generally are set too wide, and can allow people to be ‘normal’ but with suboptimal levels at the same time. For example, you can read here how ‘normal’ levels of iron in the body can leave individuals compromised in terms of their energy and wellbeing. While there is no consensus on what represents an optimal vitamin D level, there is some agreement among those with a special interest in the area that 40-60 ng/ml (100-150 mmol/l) is worth shooting for.

Usually, most of our vitamin D requirements are met by the action of sunlight on our skin. I am a self-confessed sun-worshiper, and sport a year-round tan. I never (ever) use sunscreen. One of the major dietary sources of vitamin D is oily fish, something that I eat quite regularly. Ever since I became cognisant of the critical role that vitamin D plays in health and wellbeing, I imagined that vitamin D insufficiency or deficiency was something that happened to other people.

In April, more out of idle curiosity than anything else, I decided to have my vitamin D levels checked and these came back at 15 ng/ml (low, and a long way from optimal). From 25th April, to remedy this, I started taking vitamin D (in gelcaps) at a dose of 3000 IU per day. I took these religiously. I also got as much sunshine exposure as possible while avoiding burning. Some people commented on this site that they felt I probably needed a bigger dose of vitamin D to get up into the normal range.

I repeated the test about a week ago and got the results back yesterday: 31 ng/ml.

So, on the plus side, I have doubled my levels. On the other hand, they still remain quite a bit lower than the optimal range. Yesterday, I changed my vitamin D regime, and am now taking 5000 IU units a day. I’m planning to retest again in another 2-3 months.

I was reflecting on all this this morning. Up until recently, there I was, happily believing I was immune to vitamin D deficiency on the basis of my dietary and sun exposure habits. If someone told me that I was likely going to need to supplement with more than 10 times the recommended daily allowance of vitamin D to get my vitamin D into the optimal range I would never have believed them.

And this just got my thinking just how many people may be wandering around with seriously compromised vitamin D levels. Bearing in mind it looks like vitamin D has a quite pivotal role in health, what sort of disease burden may this be causing and/or leading to? And how much unnecessary suffering might be avoided by individuals being educated about what optimal vitamin D levels are, how to have their vitamin D levels tested, and what to do to keep vitamin D levels in their normal range.

Personally, what I think we require for there to be any chance of this happening, is for their to be long-term randomised controlled trials of vitamin D supplementation. And that these should include measurement of vitamin D levels so that the relationship between these and disease risk can be further assessed.

The other thing that needs to happen is for healthcare then to be based on the best available evidence (not on what happens to be most profitable). I sometimes wonder whether the fact that iron is a non-patentable item that so many individuals seem to go short on this vitally important nutrient. Let’s hope that vitamin D does not go the same way on the basis that it too is a naturally occurring substance that cannot be patented and therefore has limited commercial value.

http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2009/0...results-are-in/
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