Try it Artsy and let us know what happens! We are all on this ride for lifetime and we have time to experiment.

yes, yes. I keep forgetting this. Thanks for the reminder.

As I get closer to my goal weight I'm trying to add in fat and cut back on protein although it's very hard to eat sometimes. I've gone up to 2 1/2 days on Stillman's without eating and felt great.

Aradasky, what does your typical menu look like?

Update on Jimmy Moore's progress day 31-60:
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/...day-31-60/14669

Great stuff, thanks for the link.

My own experience, though without any ketone testing, is that keeping to Rung 5 or lower on the Atkins Carb Ladder works the best for me. I eat food I like, I skip either breakfast or lunch without excess hunger or energy loss, I love the food!

The minute I start with the legumes and starchy vegetables, I want to have them every day, then my pants start getting tighter -- even if my carb count stays the same.

Very interesting, you ust be carb sensitive. HAve you tried adding those carbs in with an addition of fat and reducing some protein? That would be an interesting trial....

I notice when I don't get enough protein. A salad with plenty of fat elements, like dressing, will still leave me hungry sooner than if it had some protein in it.

I've tried all kinds of things by now; I just had my eight year anniversary. Big meals, no snacking, lots of fat and I can even have some higher sugar fruits and rum cocktails with low carb mixers.

But some stuff I just have to keep a tight grip on. If something makes me want more instead of satisfying me, it's not working like food. And that's a warning my body is giving me that I have to pay attention to.

Oh, now I understand something that has puzzled me for ages. I could never understand why doctors and researchers were always talking about how difficult it is to do the anti-seizure ketogenic diet. I always thought, what's the big deal, it's not that hard to follow an Atkins induction type diet. But now I think that this 'nutritional ketosis' diet Jimmy Moore is following is the kind of ketosis they are aiming for to control epilepsy, requiring at least 85% fat. That would be tough for a young kid to stick with.

Don't know about anybody else, but I'm finding it not at all easy to get to 85% fat. I've been playing around with the numbers on Fitday, and I'm really not happy trying to shovel butter and cream cheese down my throat all day. I can usually get to just about 80%, but trying to get higher takes my calorie count awfully high, and I'm still very nervous about doing that.

To get to 85% fat, you can either shove the fat in, or reduce carb/protein, or a combination of the 2.

The medical ketogenic diet in the studies is generally fueled by crap oils, because of the nutrition establishment's fear of gasp horror saturated fat. As it was first developed, it restricts carb and protein and water, to get the concentration of blood ketones high. But recent research suggests something like a modified Atkins works just as well.

The point of nutritional ketosis, imo, is less about achieving an arbitrary fat % than it is about overcoming a glucose-dependent (in whole or in part) metabolism. IOW, it's about eating a diet sufficiently low in insulinogenic foods.

You can have 85% fat in a diet, and still eat 300 g protein. You're not going to get into nutritional ketosis, that is simply too much protein. Protein stimulates the release of insulin, some say moreso than carbs. And some portion of it will convert to glucose, which will exacerbate the insulin problem and even moreso be enough to keep you out of nutritional ketosis.

But if you construct an 85% fat diet with say 50 g protein (or heck, if you're male and athletic and work out like Attia, 125 g protein), then you have a chance at keeping insulin nice and low.

This is where, again, the state at which nutritional ketosis occurs must be highly individual. Someone may have a 75% fat diet, but eat such little food that they only eat 50 g protein and 10 g carbs, and be in nutritional ketosis because the insulinogenicity of their diet is so low.

Bernstein's approach is to figure out what protein you're eating now, and if necessary cut 1/3 of a meal's worth of protein and see what happens--this is for weight-loss, so we'd assume (as most LC'ers do) that weight loss and blood insulin levels are inversely correlated.

Or you can go from the other direction, and use Rosedale's calculus to figure out the eentsy weentsy bit of protein (imo!) you need, and see how much more you need to just make it so you don't have side effects like dreaming of steak and stuff.

But I can't see how nutritional ketosis will occur with an arbitrary percentage of fat, absent a low-enough and highly indivdualized bright-ish line limit on carbs and protein, which are the only dietary means we have to attempt to control release of insulin.

I'm subscribing to this thread.

It seems the internet-gurus who are sort of anti-LC are all young jock-types. Yeah sure, I get it...you're young and active and can eat carbs with impunity. Good for you. I used to be young as well. I could also stay lean eating all kinds of crap and drinking a lot. It's called YOUTH!

I'm now 46, and do NOT handle carbs like I did back in the day. And if it's now hard for me, imagine how hard it is for someone who was obese, even when young.

People tend to extrapolate their personal reactions to diet to ALL people. Even LC folks are guilty of this at times.

But I really am tired of the anti-LC coming from 20-something crossfit addicts who have not a clue about how hard it is to live in a body that does not deal with glucose very well.

As Finney says in the interview someone posted, some of that fat is coming from what you've already stored in your body. You don't have to consume 85% of 2000 calories a day in fat because your own fat stores will make up some of that. Basically it is a reduced calorie diet principal, with the added bonus of having insulin controlled, and deep ketosis, so you're not hungry.

You don't have to count calories, but you do have to count carbs and protein.

I am doing a Nutritional Ketosis experiment here, you can read how much protein and how many carbs you should be eating for NK.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...26&page=1&pp=15

[QUOTE=Turtle2003]I could never understand why doctors and researchers were always talking about how difficult it is to do the anti-seizure ketogenic diet.[QUOTE]

I have a friend whose son was put on the ketogenic diet for seizures when he was a child. She said it was a nightmare trying to get enough fat into him. They would give him cream to drink, and after a while he'd just balk.

Plus kids see other kids getting treats for holidays and birthdays and things. My friend said no matter how often she told the school about his diet, inevitably someone would give him cake or something and throw him out of ketosis.

Plus the original ketogenic diet was calorie restricted, so the kids would be hungry as well.

I hope you have more luck than I am. I started massively increasing fat and cutting protein on July 9. I don't have a meter, but I'm clearly in ketosis. I'm getting all the nasties I always get with ketosis - insomnia, muscle cramps/twitches - but no weight loss. Three pounds came off the first two day - water, no doubt. Then ... nothing.

The only good thing is my blood pressure went down to closer to normal.

I'm fricking discouraged. I truly hate eating this way. If I were losing weight, I'd be okay with it. But I'm not which makes it hard to stay motivated.