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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Jun-04-17, 15:50
fred42 fred42 is offline
New Member
Posts: 24
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 260/220/220 Male 6' 4"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Charlotte, NC
Default Advanced Glycation End Products (AGEs)

Hello everyone, I am new here, having success with the ketogenic diet but had a concern about AGEs.

Much of the disease we associate with carb consumption is also associated with AGEs consumption. But the low carb diet has the most AGEs even before cooking. I am confused.

I understand high heat cooking can increase the AGEs, I already crockpot on low for most meats.

I also understand that the fatty meats we eat for health would be unhealthy if we also ate carbs. Could it be that this whole AGEs scare thing is just another instance of research on normal carb eating subjects instead of us? Like the fat, red meat and salt is bad findings? After all, the glycation comes from the presence of sugars.

Thanks for any insight on this...
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Jun-04-17, 20:43
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Doing My Best
Posts: 4,924
 
Plan: LC/CancerRecovery
Stats: 170/135/130 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
Default

Welcome to the forum. It's a great place to share and to learn.

Until I read your post, I was totally unaware of AGEs, so I went googling. I found a site and read a bit on it.

Whether this is real or not, I don't know. Teaser is our resident science buff, so maybe he will chime in.

This is what I can tell you:
I've been using Atkins to control my weight since 1972. I have no disease in my body. I'm strong and flexible. My weight and body fat percentage are both normal. I take more exercise than most. I'm female and I'm 72, on no prescription drugs.

I'd have to say that this WOE has not damaged me, nor has it caused premature aging in my body.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Jun-05-17, 00:32
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Hi, Fred. You got it right, it happens with sugar. No sugar, no glycation.

The big picture kind of logic is this. A low-carb diet returns us to good health, therefore whatever mechanism here must be good. There's a few mechanisms specifically for AGEs. First is less carbs, so less glucose for glycation (dunno where you got the idea that low-carb has the most AGEs before cooking cuz, you know, low-carb). Then it's less insulin, so more ketones for chaperone-mediated autophagy (CMA), which is the recycling of glycated protein, so even less AGEs. Then it's more fat, so even more ketones, etc. More good stuff not directly related to AGEs but still worth mentioning while we're at it. More ketones, so more energy for everything. Then it's less HbA1c - glycated hemoglobin - red blood cells work better, more oxygen, good stuff. Then, also because of CMA, less protein waste cuz more protein recycling, more good stuff.

For the meat turning unhealthy cuz of carbs, let's see how that works. Remove the meat. What's left on the plate? Remember, we started with meat=good, then we went meat+carbs=meat bad. For the logically inclined, here's a simple graph to illustrate how this is wrong.

meat(good)
carbs(bad)
meat(good) + carbs(bad) = meat+carbs (good+bad)

The conclusion is that:

Meat is at least (good), at worst (good+bad)
Carbs is at least (bad), at best (good+bad)
And
Meat cannot turn carbs into completely (good)
Carbs cannot turn meat into completely (bad)

It's cool, isn't it? It means when we go low-carb, we turn carbs(bad) into meat(good). It's certainly possible to do low-carb without meat, it's just easier with meat.

Finally, your personal experience speaks louder than me or any logic or evidence or science I can throw in here. You're having success. That's it for that. If you just wanna lose some weight, that's perfeactly fine, but hang around and see what others here experience, you'll find that there's a whole lot more to it than just losing a bit of fat. For me personally, it's a bunch of things, wrote some of it down in my journal here. Anyways, see for yourself what other things are happening with you on low-carb.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Jun-05-17, 04:53
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,283
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
Finally, your personal experience speaks louder than me or any logic or evidence or science I can throw in here. You're having success. That's it for that. If you just wanna lose some weight, that's perfeactly fine, but hang around and see what others here experience, you'll find that there's a whole lot more to it than just losing a bit of fat. For me personally, it's a bunch of things, wrote some of it down in my journal here. Anyways, see for yourself what other things are happening with you on low-carb.


This is so important. Weight loss is one thing but there is so much more that is beneficial to your health when you eat low carb. Enjoy!

Jean
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Jun-05-17, 05:03
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred42
Hello everyone, I am new here, having success with the ketogenic diet but had a concern about AGEs.

Much of the disease we associate with carb consumption is also associated with AGEs consumption. But the low carb diet has the most AGEs even before cooking. I am confused.

I understand high heat cooking can increase the AGEs, I already crockpot on low for most meats.

I also understand that the fatty meats we eat for health would be unhealthy if we also ate carbs. Could it be that this whole AGEs scare thing is just another instance of research on normal carb eating subjects instead of us? Like the fat, red meat and salt is bad findings? After all, the glycation comes from the presence of sugars.

Thanks for any insight on this...


I don't think there are a lot of studies looking at dietary AGEs specifically, let alone ones that zero in on AGEs in a low carbohydrate context. But since, as you say, the staple low carb foods are actually much higher in AGEs than the staples of a high carb, low-fat diet, there are lots of studies where AGEs will have unintentionally been higher in the low carb arm--so if AGEs are a concern, we still have to answer the question, why do people who are probably eating a diet higher than average in AGEs experiencing health improvements and reductions in inflammation instead of increases?

Or maybe split it into two questions, instead. First--do I experience health benefits and reduction in inflammation on a lower carb diet that probably increases my dietary AGEs? The answer there seems to be yes. Second--would I experience greater improvements if, within my low carb diet, I gravitated towards foods with a lower AGE content? I don't know the answer to that question. But I know that I get benefit from ketogenic/low carb, and only suspect that dietary AGEs might be a problem. So while like you I might do things to lower AGEs on my ketogenic diet, I worry about it being ketogenic before I worry about AGEs.

I do like to use gentler cooking methods, add fat after cooking, when it makes sense to, instead of during. I like my egg yolks as raw as possible anyways, so even if I'm frying eggs, I'll often separate the yolks and just cook the whites, and then add the yolks back on afterwards.

One problem with AGEs is that they're a little hard to isolate. If you feed mice softer pellets--add fat or water--they'll get fatter and have higher blood glucose/insulin than they would have on harder pellets, maybe because the hard pellets hurt their mouths when they eat them. I used to go through a lot more cookies if I had something to dip them in. One study of AGEs had animals eating pellets that had been steamed, steaming them twice as long resulted in higher AGEs--but also, possibly, softer pellets. Another problem is that AGEs are yummy, browning/maillard reaction improves flavour, that might change the pattern of consumption, a snacking pattern tends to make animals more insulin resistant than a smaller number of discreet meals does.

We had some guests at the cottage a few years ago, they brought up some steaks. His eyes were bigger than my stomach, the steak he brought for me was huge. We ran out of propane when we went to cook them. I like steak all the way to raw, so I just started eating mine. I got about halfway through, I was stuffed. My friend took the other half, fried it in butter. "Eat." I ate more--appetite returned with the first taste. Again, I ate until I didn't want more, again my friend cooked it further--and again, the more intense flavour resulted in an increase in appetite.
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Jun-05-17, 06:15
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,602
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
Default

I also understand that in grassfed meat, browning creates its own AGE antidote; more omega-3 fatty acids and more conjugated linoleic acid.

What we eat is affected by what they eat.
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Jun-07-17, 08:00
VLC.MD VLC.MD is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 220
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 209/185/185 Male 69
BF:reducing
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred42
but had a concern about AGEs (advanced glycation end products).

Do you have diabetes ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I don't think there are a lot of studies looking at dietary AGEs specifically, let alone ones that zero in on AGEs in a low carbohydrate context.


Exactly !

I haven't thought of this topic before .. but my initial reaction is ...
Eating AGEs is fine, you don't want YOUR (blood and other) proteins in your body to get AGEs. The way to avoid your own proteins getting glycated is to keep your blood sugar levels low.

Eating protein with AGEs will just get digested by your stomach so I don't think it is important.

The human test for AGEs is : A1c (aka HbA1c, "3 month sugar test"). The most common way to monitor diabetes. So, if your A1c goes down while eating food with AGEs I'd still say you are on the right track !

Last edited by VLC.MD : Wed, Jun-07-17 at 08:09.
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