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  #211   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-06, 15:39
nraden nraden is offline
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[QUOTE=Duparc]This thread, which has slipped in, almost unnoticed, to the P & N section, has sure raised a lot of interest. Could this be because it is a controversial subject? For example, as mentioned in an earlier post, 7 hours sleep is my maximum and if ever I oversleep I usually suffer for it.

I wanted to read through this whole thread, now that I've found it, before commenting, but I just don't want to lose this thought. Duparc - you don't get it. It doesn't matter how much sleep you prefer, you're one person. Thank goodness that humans are so variable. Also, you live in Scotland, and unless you're lived in a poisoned, polluted part of one of the big cities, IT'S REALLY DARK THERE AND LIFE IS NOTHING LIKE BEING IN THE US. So if you have a comment, make it on on the merits of the ideas and back it up, don't just shoot it down with a riot of subjective opinions.

Now, here is what you don't get and, so far as I can tell, no one else picked up on either. There are four neurotransmitters that control a zillion metabolic processes: seratonin, prolactin, cortisol and melatonin. They all do a choreographed dance while you sleep, and each one acts as a negative feedback loop for the others. It's a beautiful system. Light is registered through your skin to those little guys, cyptochromes or something, I forgot the exact name. That's how your innards know when it's day or night. Fool them and you trip up the dance of the neurotransmitters.

It has NOTHING to do with how you feel and how much sleep it takes to make you feel good. It takes a certain amount of time for these guys to do their work, a lot of which has to do with the functioning of your immune system. I don't really understand the details, but it's all in the book.

-NR
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  #212   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-06, 16:00
nraden nraden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
Unless, of course, they had small babies.


I started out a skeptic, but with a great deal of research, I'm convinced that the odds are quite good that my nine-month-old son will, if he chooses, never have to die. How's that for a question never broached in parenting books? How do you raise a child who will be immortal?


Plane


God forbid.

None of these technologies will do a damned thing unless the healthcare system is motivated by health, not profit and prestige. And all the tools in the world won't work if your theory of the organism (human) is wrong. Medicine and science still look at people as machines. No, not even machines, and beakers. Just pour some stuff in and stir. My wife often says that the reason doctors don't know anything about health is that all the bodies they studied in med school were already dead.

The genome thing is huge bluff. All you get is a snapshot at a point in time. It's a very complex, non-linear, dynamic system. That's why even identical twins become less identical with age. A gene has to express itself to have an affect. But all of these expressed proteins travel up and down and turn other genes on or off. Feedback loops. Sensitive dependence on in in initial conditions. That's an NP-hard problem, in other words, we can't model it.

It doesn't matter, really, the Ice Age will be here in a few years anyway...

-NR
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  #213   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-06, 16:12
nraden nraden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
OK, have just finished reading Lights Out - thoroughly enjoyed it and I did think it made some salient points.

However, my thought is this ~ wouldn't moonlight/starlight have meant that it wasn't totally dark at night for our ancestors either??
(I can't remember if this point has already been touched on here, so apologies if I'm repeating it).

Which leads me on to why we should need to sleep in total darkness now (as well as making sure that we do not expose any part of our skin)? - I'm just wondering if something as simple as wearing a sleep mask would be sufficient for the purpose.


Ask yourself this question: How do blind people's bodies know when it's night or day? The answer is that light enters your body from your skin, not just your eyes. There was a study at U of Chicago where they had two groups in total darkness. One group had a small fiber optic light shining on the backside of one knee. The control group didn't. The group with the light had significantly higher insulin levels than the control group.

-NR
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  #214   ^
Old Sat, Apr-01-06, 11:18
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TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nraden
It has NOTHING to do with how you feel and how much sleep it takes to make you feel good. It takes a certain amount of time for these guys to do their work, a lot of which has to do with the functioning of your immune system. I don't really understand the details, but it's all in the book.


Okay, here's the first of many questions for you, Neil.

Many people here, and in this thread, report "needing" less sleep while on a low-carbohydrate diet. I'm not comfortable with how I explain to them that, yes they may feel better on less sleep now, but that their bodies are designed to sleep a certain way.

I try to keep the chat about hormones and neurotransmitters to a minimum, and say instead that their desire to get up after five hours of sleep is motivated by something other than the desire to stay sleepy for the health of it. Susie MUST have heard a million times the notion that as people start eating better and losing weight, they feel energized and somehow translate that into wanting to sleep less.

It's a bit troubling to me when people who ate sugar and cranked up their insulin too high and became insulin resistant (and serotonin resistant), started eating low-carb, fixing their insulin problem (and the first step to fixing their serotonin problem), and then sleep less because they feel differently (more energized).

Considering that you can't FIX insulin resistance with a few weeks of low-carb, my fear is that instead of eating sugar to get their bloodsugar up, they instead get less sleep, and use the resulting high cortisol to keep their bloodsugar up. Insulin receptors are still resistant after such a short time, and the body starts screaming for more insulin BECAUSE the receptors are still resistant.

I think this urge is what brings on the desire to sleep less, and exercise more, both of which are perfect ways to increase cortisol, thus increasing bloodsugar, thus increasing insulin.

I'd love to hear the pat answer I think she has for the claim that people eating low-carb (or just better) feel like they "need" less sleep. (Beyond the answer that, no they don't.) Is there a good way to get this point across without out launching into biochemistry?
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  #215   ^
Old Sat, Apr-01-06, 18:03
nraden nraden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCaveman
Okay, here's the first of many questions for you, Neil.


I'd love to hear the pat answer I think she has for the claim that people eating low-carb (or just better) feel like they "need" less sleep. (Beyond the answer that, no they don't.) Is there a good way to get this point across without out launching into biochemistry?


First of all, if you haven't picked up on how Susie thinks, she sees everything in rhythm, cycles, continuity and balance. That's why she laughs when people mention radiation or chemotherapy. That's why the Wiley Protocol for BHRT changes the amounts of estrogen and progesterone every 3 days in a 29.5 day cycle. So for as I know, the hours of sleep are related to the hours of daylight. Your body sets its daily clock based on this and the rise and fall of seratonin/cortisiol/melatonin/prolactin are timed by this clock. If you disrupt their operation, you create chaos and you screw up the clock. Susie says that estrogen alone controls at least 5000 metabolic functions, other than reproduction, and every neurotramsmitter is just as agile.

You can't change one thing. It changes others things, which changes other things. That's why big medicine is so hopeless, they don't see it that way. (By the way, she's pretty down on supplements for the same reason). Got cancer cells? Burn em, poison em, but don't ask the question, "Why does cancer exist in nature?"

-NR
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  #216   ^
Old Sat, Apr-01-06, 19:15
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TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nraden
First of all, if you haven't picked up on how Susie thinks, she sees everything in rhythm, cycles, continuity and balance. That's why she laughs when people mention radiation or chemotherapy. That's why the Wiley Protocol for BHRT changes the amounts of estrogen and progesterone every 3 days in a 29.5 day cycle. So for as I know, the hours of sleep are related to the hours of daylight. Your body sets its daily clock based on this and the rise and fall of seratonin/cortisiol/melatonin/prolactin are timed by this clock. If you disrupt their operation, you create chaos and you screw up the clock. Susie says that estrogen alone controls at least 5000 metabolic functions, other than reproduction, and every neurotramsmitter is just as agile.



Heh, so I guess the answer is "no", then, eh?

Do peoples' eyes glaze over when she gives them an answer like this (which sounds much like the answer I used to give)? As true as all that is, the hard sell on this question always prevokes a response like "Well, all I know is that since I've been low-carbing, I need so much less sleep!" (And we're back to square one.)

One answer that I've been getting a better response to, is when I tell people that our bodies EXPECT long hours of darkness, and when we don't get it, it has to do all sorts of terrible things in order to keep us healthy, or at least upright. Our bodies weaken when they have to do so much improvising. The wear and tear on our immune system really is enough to answer the question of why we get heart disease and cancer. Our bodies were built for a certain environment, and the farther away we get from that environment, the more trouble we have with our bodies.

I'm glad I'm not the only one having trouble explaining all this without reference to biochemistry or evolution.

Here's another question, Neil: Where is Susie's blog? She's taking a lot of heat on the internet about the BHRT, and it seems like the wrong time for her to be silent.

Another: Is she continuing to write with Dr. Formby, or have they parted ways as authors? Who is she writing her new book with, if anyone? Lot's more questions on the new book, by the way.
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  #217   ^
Old Sat, Apr-01-06, 20:20
nraden nraden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCaveman
Heh, so I guess the answer is "no", then, eh?

Do peoples' eyes glaze over when she gives them an answer like this (which sounds much like the answer I used to give)? As true as all that is, the hard sell on this question always prevokes a response like "Well, all I know is that since I've been low-carbing, I need so much less sleep!" (And we're back to square one.)


She'd probably say that it's natural selection at work. They dodged the hi-carb bullet, but you can't beat fate. LOL. No, her eyes never glaze over, she's from the midwest and does the best she can to be nice to everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCaveman
...The wear and tear on our immune system really is enough to answer the question of why we get heart disease and cancer. Our bodies were built for a certain environment, and the farther away we get from that environment, the more trouble we have with our bodies.


Not so sure. She sees cancer as a natural force, taking out organisms when they aren't useful. Aging. Not reproductive. Now the immune system, she has all sorts of new material about that, because she's battling some pretty awful autoimmunity herself.

Quote:
Here's another question, Neil: Where is Susie's blog? She's taking a lot of heat on the internet about the BHRT, and it seems like the wrong time for her to be silent.

Another: Is she continuing to write with Dr. Formby, or have they parted ways as authors? Who is she writing her new book with, if anyone? Lot's more questions on the new book, by the way.


There won't be a blog, she dosn't really have time and doesn't really like the internet anyway. As for the heat, it's a classic case of a spurned obsessed fan getting even. Also, when women start the WP, a lot of them are already sick. When they don't respond like they've been to the fountaqin of youth, they get angry. This particular woman used her hormones like a street drug and blamed Susie when she got sick. Susie decided the best way to deal with it is to ignore it. Suzanne Somers will have her new book out in a few months, and there is a lot of ink devoted to Susie (favorably). Honestly, to do what Susie is trying to do will take 20-30 years. She's got her eye on the long-term.

The fact is that Susie is following thousands of women on the protocol, some for five years now, and the results are very impressive. Some of these women have cancer and are doing very well, and there hasn't been a single recurrence.

If you would like to see a lengthy rebuttal of some of that stuff on the internet, contact me off-list.

No, she is not working with Formby, he's an opportunitist, unreliable and has some personal demons he hasn't really dealt with. What can I say, he's a scientist. They're not the most upright people in the world, you can buy them pretty cheap. She is still working with Dr. Taguchi, the oncologist who contributed to Sex, Lies and Menopause. Right now, Susie is trying to standardize compounding pharmacy, break through the standard of care in HRT and is going back to the lab to figure out heart disease, which she believes has more to do with CMV than cholesterol. Stay tuned for that.

One bit of trivia is that the book (Lights Out) was originally called Kept In the Dark, but a new head of the publisher came in after the book was book, hated it, forced the name change and made the cover look like a diet book and then pulled the publicity. It came out and died.

SLM was supposed to be published in March, 2001 but they pulled it because of the Iraq War (airwaves clogged with war news). Publication was rescheduled for September. Right before it released the Women's Health Initiative released its "estrogen will kill you report," and THAT caused the publisher to pull the publicity budget too. The funniest moment was when Susie was on with Paula Zahn, who started the interview with, "So T.S., I understand you believe women should start having babies at 15."

This is a hard business.

-NR
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  #218   ^
Old Sun, Apr-02-06, 09:43
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Demi Demi is offline
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Have just read this article, and thought posters to this thread might find it of interest too:

Quote:
Bedtime Stories

The Independent on Sunday
London, UK
2 April, 2006

Suffer sleepless nights? Can't get out of bed? Katy Guest meets the experts who are finally unravelling the mysteries of the Land of Nod


Napoleon Bonaparte, who was not a good sleeper, advocated "six hours sleep for a man, seven for a woman and eight for a fool". Two hundred years later, things are a little more confused.

According to a new survey, we are a nation of insomniacs: almost half of Britons say they get less than five hours' sleep a night; 65 per cent have trouble sleeping and four out of five do not feel refreshed when they wake. They claim to be suffering from chronic lack of sleep.

But these people are about to get a rude awakening. The author of a new book, Sleepfaring, would like to debunk some of the ideas surrounding "sleep debt". Professor Jim Horne is the director of the Sleep Centre at Loughborough University and edits the Journal of Sleep Research; he says that claims we are all going through life on the verge of nervous collapse are nonsense - and that the "recommended" eight hours is a myth. So are half of British people fools?

"There is no evidence that we are getting less sleep than we used to," says Professor Horne. "The survey, by GMTV, said that 65 per cent of people have trouble sleeping. I have not found that. Of course, if you ask people whether they would like more sleep, most say yes. But if you ask them what they would do with an extra hour a day, most wouldn't use it to sleep."

What Professor Horne suspects is that people are not failing to sleep enough, but failing to sleep right. "A very few people are naturally short sleepers: five hours or less," he says. "A very few are naturally long sleepers: nine hours or more. But for everyone else it is the quality of sleep, not the quantity, that is important. Six hours of uninterrupted sleep are much better than nine hours of interrupted sleep."

Stephen Emegbo, a sleep physiologist at the University of Surrey's Sleep Research Centre, agrees. "Everybody is as individual as a thumbprint when it comes to how much sleep we need," he says. "People like Thatcher and Churchill famously claimed to perform well on five hours' sleep a night; but put somebody else on that and they won't be able to perform. Older people need less sleep than younger people. And women tend to have more slow-wave or restorative sleep than men."

He does, however, stress the importance of "sleep hygiene" - keeping your bedroom cool, dark and free from televisions and stimulating electrical equipment. "People forget how important sleep really is. If people keep working 16- or 18-hour days their vigilance and performance will be affected and health issues will begin to show."

This belief is borne out by the statistics. According to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, 20 per cent of accidents on motorways are caused by tiredness, and more than 300 people are killed each year by drivers falling asleep at the wheel. The relationship organisation, Relate, believes that sleep disorders are the underlying cause of many relationship break-ups.

Many sleep disorders go undiagnosed: problems such as sleep apnoea, where the patient is woken by interrupted breathing, or restless legs, where twitching or crawling sensations interfere with sleep, are easy to "get used to", according to Professor Horne. Mr Emegbo worries that "most people going to their GP do not report difficulty sleeping as their primary issue: they think it is the norm." Professor Horne advises insomniacs not to go to bed until they are sleepy, and to try doing a jigsaw instead: "there's something particular about using the eyes and hands, and it makes the eyelids feel heavy. Going to bed in a relaxed state of mind is more important than anything else."

But if you are stilltired after an eight-hour night, you could be one of the 2 per cent with an undiagnosed sleep disorder; and you are in good company. Emegbo cites the example of Fat Joe in Dickens's Pickwick Papers: the child who fell asleep standing up. "I would diagnose sleep apnoea," he says. "We see that a lot." Reassuringly, this is not such a modern phenomenon. And perhaps we are not fools after all.

The Napper

Andy Bartlett, 33, product designer, worldsapart.co.uk, Newquay

I've got two young children and my wife's with them all day, so the only time I can make a contribution is in the evenings and at night. I only get five hours' sleep because I'm up a lot feeding the kids and settling them. If I have a big sleep I feel groggy, whereas a nap takes the edge off the tiredness and helps me get stuck into the rest of the day.

In meetings I sit in the darkest corner, open my book, pen in hand, and get a bit of shut-eye. The skill I've developed is to listen just enough so that if your project comes up you can snap out of it. In a meeting I can only get away with a couple of minutes at a time, but other naps can last between 20 minutes and half an hour. Having naps means I am less grumpy and tired and can help my family a bit more. It's win at home and win at work as well.

National Nap at Work Week ends today

The Insomniac

Carrie Frain, 25, transport officer, London

According to my mum I haven't slept through the night since I was born, but about seven years ago it got much worse. On a typical night I go to bed when I'm tired, toss and turn for a bit and then get up to watch some telly. I am up and down all night, getting something to eat, tidying up and sorting out the house until I eventually feel tired enough to drop off. I usually get about two to four hours' sleep a night.

Getting through work on no sleep is very hard and for a while I just refused to get out of bed in the morning because I was so exhausted. I was so run down that I started suffering from recurring ear infections and colds; and then the panic attacks started because I was so tired. If I haven't slept for a couple of days I tend to get really angry, then I get very emotional.

I've tried all sorts of remedies to help me sleep - herbal and non-herbal, I've tried sleeping pills, lavender and they haven't had any effect, so I have just learnt to adapt to my insomnia and now I'm managing to cope a bit better. I just have to keep telling myself that eventually I will get some sleep and accept the way I am and keep going.

The Pill Popper

Juliette Meeus, 45, television news producer, London

I wake up in the middle of the night and stay awake for hours thinking, worrying or feeling stressed, so I take sleeping pills so I can function the next day. I've been taking them on and off for six years, whether it's an antihistamine, over-the-counter medication, or something prescribed. It makes me feel good to have them around - as a sort of crutch.

I try not to take them every day as they're addictive and I don't want to become too reliant on them, and I don't know enough about what the effects of long-term use are, but I take them a good three times a week. And the older I get, the less over-the-counter stuff works for me.

I don't take sleeping pills on the weekends because I don't feel the same pressure to have a good night's sleep, but during the week I need six hours, if not more, because I have to get up at 4.45 in the morning. If I don't sleep for a couple of days I feel really ragged, it affects my personality, my mental health, and every area of my life, so having them makes me feel there's some recourse for me.

The Sleepwalker

Debby Colburn, 34, carer, Marlborough

When I was 13 or 14 I vividly remember my parents coming downstairs one morning and finding all the doors unlocked and it was then we realised I must have walked downstairs in the middle of the night and unlocked them in my sleep.

More recently I've been waking up by the bedroom window with the curtain open, or at the window in the front room. I feel so stupid when I realise that I've been sleep walking and think, "Why on earth have I done this?" It can be embarrassing. If I walk out of the bedroom door and suddenly wake up, quite often my husband wakes up too and asks me where I'm going, so I just say, "Oh I've just been to the loo," knowing full well that I've been walking in my sleep.

At work sometimes we have to do sleep-ins at the residential homes. I am responsible for looking after people and I worry that I could end up locking myself out of the house and wake up in the street in my pyjamas. I don't have a clue why I do it, but sleep-walking is just part of my life now.

The Heavy Sleeper

Lawrence Weyman-Jones, 23, student, London

Since going to university I seem to have evolved into somebody who needs a lot of sleep - about 11 hours a night. Most days I wake up at about midday and when I don't get enough sleep I feel very irritable.

My girlfriend thinks that I get so much sleep that I never really wake up, and there is a certain amount of truth in that. It does take me a few hours to wake up and do stuff properly once I'm out of bed, so I'd definitely be more productive if I could get by on less sleep. If I need to get work done I have to do it during the evenings when I'd much rather be doing other things.

My girlfriend likes to get up early and do stuff at the weekends, but if I get up on a Saturday at one or two in the afternoon and we want to see an exhibition or go to a market, then it's invariably closed by the time we get there. I want to change but if I don't get lots of sleep I just have a bad day, so it's a fine balance. I'd rather just have a short good day than a long crap one.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/he...ticle355086.ece
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  #219   ^
Old Sat, Apr-08-06, 19:40
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TwilightZ TwilightZ is offline
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Neil, if you're checking in here, a question. We keep our bedroom pitch black, but how is one supposed to deal with having to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night? I need a flashlight to see. Does that small amount of light for short period of time ruin everything? BTW tell you wife I love the book--and I paid more than $1.50 for it (but not much).

Howard
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  #220   ^
Old Sat, Apr-08-06, 21:53
nraden nraden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwilightZ
Neil, if you're checking in here, a question. We keep our bedroom pitch black, but how is one supposed to deal with having to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night? I need a flashlight to see. Does that small amount of light for short period of time ruin everything? BTW tell you wife I love the book--and I paid more than $1.50 for it (but not much).

Howard


$1.50 is the royalty, unless you bought used or with an R on the side. The publisher is printing 100,000 of them now and 200,000 of the second book because Suzanne Somer's new book (coming in September) is all over them. Weird how that works.

Don't go to the batroom in the middle of the night, you might get eaten by a sabretoothed tiger. Seriously, don't drink anything past 6. If that doesn't work, try 5. You can go days without water, you'll be OK. The only time I wake up now is if I break that rule.
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  #221   ^
Old Sun, Apr-09-06, 03:34
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Demi Demi is offline
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Default Another interesting sleep article

Sleep - our new obsession

The new Western obsession is sleep - or a lack of it. Jo Revill, health editor, reveals new research that lifts the lid on how much we really need.

Sunday April 9, 2006
The Observer
London, UK


Sleep, or rather our frustration at not having enough of it, is the new health obsession. Worries about diet, pollution and exercise have given way to new anxieties about insomnia. We are told that the nation is building up a 'chronic sleep debt' because our modern lifestyles don't allow us to spend enough time in bed after a long day.

It is a new sort of epidemic, with millions being spent on sleeping pills to 'cure' those who can't drop off at night. Interrupted sleep is now one of the most common complaints aired in the GP's surgery. Everything from parenting problems to diabetes and career setbacks are blamed on a 'sleep disorder pattern' which is fuelling an industry of therapists, drugs and devices.

Now a new book by Britain's leading expert on the subject sets out our real relationship with sleep. It argues that most of us get quite enough, and that the present generation enjoys a better-quality night-time than our ancestors ever had. Instead of obsessing about sleep debt, we should realise that the key to feeling energetic and focused in the morning is what we do in the waking hours, not whether we are getting enough time with our heads on a pillow. Even those who wake up frequently at night are probably getting sufficient sleep.

Professor Jim Horne is the experts' expert when it comes to sleep research in Britain, and his views will annoy some people because he does not pander to the idea that we are all chronically deprived of sleep. But he celebrates the fact that we know so much more now about 'Nature's soft nurse' than in the past, and that it's there to enjoy: we should stop being so hung up on it. Sleep is now something, finally, we can understand. As mornings become lighter and Easter approaches, many of us find ourselves waking early. Long before the alarm clock goes off, you're opening your eyes, reacting to the combination of early sunlight and the April dawn chorus. But how is the body able to fine-tune itself so exactly to the seasons when we live in such a hectic, technology-driven world?

The last 10 days would suggest that we are hopelessly out of synch, given the plethora of stories warning of the dangers of sleeplessness. The New York Times said that insomnia was pushing thousands more people into taking prescribed drugs for the condition amid concern that younger people are finding it particularly hard to doze off. The British Association of Counselling is reported as saying that 12 million people have at least three bad nights of sleep a week. Then the RAC warned that sleepy drivers were responsible for 20,000 crashes last year.

Horne wants to change the tone of the debate, arguing that the human body adjusts to different sleep patterns with great agility. This is because our lives are governed by a body clock which affects not only the timing of sleep but also the different levels of alertness or lethargy. These 'circadian rhythms', which govern our moods and energy levels, are set by the body clock, which in turn is synchronised by sunset and sunrise, and also by more modern cues such as artificial light, the alarm clock, even the daily addiction to a particular TV soap.

But this timepiece, which in prehistoric times would allow us to rise early to have the best chances of survival and hunting, can be shifted by our own irregular lifestyles. For example, a very bad night's sleep will affect your level of alertness so that by 10am, when you would normally be awake and highly receptive to people around you, you will still be in a sleepy phase. Afternoon sleepiness is an entirely natural phase of the body clock, and is the human way of getting through the day. 'Some people think that because they feel tired in the afternoon something is wrong with them, but that is not at all the case,' said Horne. 'It's a natural dip in the day.'

The afternoon siesta is still common in hotter countries but is something that might benefit people in cold climes too. Winston Churchill was a proponent of the afternoon kip, and stuck to this routine during the Second World War. Later he wrote: 'You must sleep some time between lunch and dinner, and no half-way measures. Take off your clothes and get into bed. That's what I always do. Don't think you will be doing less work because you sleep during the day. That's a foolish notion held by people who have no imagination. When the war started, I had to sleep during the day because that was the only way I could cope with my responsibilities.'

Throughout the ages, humans have regulated their sleep according to their working lives. Five centuries ago Britons enjoyed something known as 'fyrste slepe', an early evening nap. Supper usually followed, then a period of prayer or talking. People would then stay awake until the early hours of the morning, then had a five to six-hour sleep.

'It seems to me that a night of between seven and eight hours' sleep is a fairly modern western development, which is clearly linked to industrialisation,' said Horne. 'Human beings are very adaptable, and we should keep that in mind because we tend to think of these hours as sacrosanct, when in fact we are far more flexible than we like to think.'

The reality is that we probably sleep more now than our ancestors did 100 years ago. 'Increasingly you hear people talking about us all having a chronic sleep debt, and that you have to catch up with it, but I'm not sure that is true,' said Horne.

'Think back to what life was like in Dickensian times. People were working 14-hour days, six days a week, and there was no lie-in on a Sunday as you were up for church. At night they would return to bedrooms they would share with children, to beds infested with bugs, in a noisy environment. The great majority of people were not getting eight hours of uninterrupted rest. But they didn't think about it in that way, or if they did feel tired they kept quiet.'

What exactly is sleep? The myths and beliefs that have surrounded the time we spend dead to the rest of the world have always mattered to successive civilisations. Aristotle thought it resulted from the warm vapours rising from the stomach after a good meal. But that was 2000 years ago, before we had EEGs (electroencephalograms) to measure the brainwaves we emit in sleeping hours.

Sleep is far more than an absence of body movement or a closing of the eyes: it is to do with the profound changes that take place in the cortex, the part of the brain that controls all the higher functions - the intellect, the imagination, social responsibility and love. By looking at the brainwaves that emerge from this region using an EEG, scientists can study the different stages of sleep. The process may seem continuous but is actually broken up into 90-minute spells. What tends to happen is that, soon after you nod off, you will go into a deep sleep. The brainwaves alter in their height and number, and move from becoming 'small ripples to large rollers', as Horne puts it. 'These deep waves, affecting your levels of consciousness, enable the body to block out external noises and movement and to maintain sleep, and will make up between 10 and 20 per cent of a night's sleep for a typical adult. It usually happens in the first half of the night.'

Much research has gone into the stage of sleep known as REM (rapid eye movement) first identified in 1955. The name is rather a misnomer, because during this time the eyes are mostly not moving at all. The rapid jerky movements under the eyelid first described by Professor GT Ladd in 1892 were associated with dreaming. In fact, the most vivid and intense dreams do occur during the REM period, but in the rest of sleep you also dream, although the images tend to be milder and more reflective.

Dreams are created in the cortex, but REM derives from a much deeper part of the brain which seems less connected with thought processing and more to do with memory storage and wakefulness. 'Some have compared this stage to a screen-saver on a computer - it's the mode into which the brain can retreat when it is in a state of non-wakefulness,' said Horne.

'We know that sleep looks after many, many processes which affect your personality, your memory, your thoughts, your feelings - really everything that makes you human and able to function. The many studies on sleep deprivation show us that these fragments of who you are start to break down once you take away essential rest.'

What is exciting new interest - and what few of us realise - is that the amount of deep, beneficial sleep you get really depends on the amount of time you have previously spent awake. It seems the deep waves are crucial for enabling the cortex to recover its powers, or 'recharge' before it can cope with the next day. A fairly new discovery is that there are very slow waves within this deep sleep that appear to be particularly important for the brain and affect the workload that the cortex can deal with during waking hours. But someone who regularly sleeps for just five hours can enjoy the same amount of deep sleep as the person who has nine hours a night - and there is no research to suggest that one is less alert or energetic than the other.

We think of insomnia as a modern condition, as a state created by the internet and constant news coverage and 24-hour cafes. The film Lost In Translation, starring Bill Murray as an exhausted actor unable to sleep in his Tokyo hotel, conveys the sense of weariness with modern pressures. His exhaustion is expressed by the boredom and frustration of his situation, and a desire to escape.

But is it really anything new? 'The hurry and excitement of modern life is held to be responsible for much of the insomnia of which we hear; and most of the articles and letters are full of good advice to live more quietly and of platitudes concerning the harmfulness of rush and worry. The pity of it is that so many people are obliged to lead a life of anxiety and high tension.' This statement comes from the British Medical Journal but was written in September 1894. It entirely conveys what most people feel is the truth now about life in Britain.

Everyone has had the experience of trying to go off to sleep, only to find that their mind is still buzzing and that the more they try, the harder it is to find rest. But Horne's research in Loughborough has shown that most people don't take that long to doze off. The period of time measured from the 'lights out' moment to nodding off is around 10 to 30 minutes, although in 25 per cent of cases it can take longer than that. There is an interesting difference between the sexes. After the age of 50, men report falling asleep much faster - averaging about 13 minutes compared with 22 for women. It appears to be older women who have most problems in getting off to sleep.

Most of us go to bed between 11pm and midnight, although women tend to go somewhat earlier than men. There are, however, people who survive well on five hours' sleep and also those who need nine hours. The average daily sleep over the past 40 years turns out to be between seven and seven and a half hours, across the West. What is more, the human being's ability to sleep in virtually any circumstances is well documented in history. The phrase 'hangover' does not come from some alcohol-related source but from the bedtime tradition in Victorian workhouses. Workers lined up along a bench and a rope was tied from one end to the other, allowing them to sleep by draping their arms over the rope which they 'hung over' as it supported them.

Horne, who has carried out research on thousands of volunteers at his sleep laboratory, believes that, although around one-quarter of the population may feel they get insufficient sleep, there is very little firm evidence to support this. Tests measuring cognitive performance show that when people have lost two hours a night, it does not affect ability to perform tasks. 'Much of the insomnia is self-diagnosed, and it's easier to take a patient's word for it and prescribe tablets than to sort out whether they are really sleep-deprived,' he said. 'When a whole society starts to think it has a chronic sleep debt, then you are going to increase the problems. A lot of sleepiness is more imagined than real.'

But there are many who argue against Horne when he questions the whole idea of a sleep debt. Professor Russell Foster, an expert in circadian rhythms at Imperial College London, said: 'A few days of not getting enough sleep won't harm you, but there is a cumulative effect that you see, and there is evidence that it can affect your cognitive performance. I think western societies are increasingly 24/7, increasingly sleep-deprived and increasingly reliant on stimulants. Why is it that the second most traded commodity after oil is coffee beans? Because we can keep ourselves awake for longer. The problem comes at weekends when we then want to relax but find it hard, so we use alcohol and sedatives to do so. Yet sleep is more important than ever to us, because in Britain we don't have a manufacturing base any more, we are reliant on our creative processes, and for individuals to come up with really novel ideas and decisions, they need to enjoy regular, good-quality sleep. There's no getting away from it.'

The struggle to get enough sleep is one of the most common complaints of modern life, and like everything else it therefore demands 'a quick fix'. More than £20m a year is spent in Britain on sleeping pills, but these are short-term therapies which usually stop working after four weeks and can be difficult to withdraw from. The older benzodiazepine drugs have left thousands of people dependent on them, although they carry side effects and do nothing to sort out the problems of insomnia.

Back in the Eighties, when doctors worked gruelling 90-hour weeks, there were many accounts of accidents and errors made by clinicians who were too tired to think properly. The results of such long hours without rest led to a big change in working patterns, and finally to the European Working Time Directive, which now means that no one must work more than a week without a break.

One doctor who remembers what it felt like to be so tired is Sarah Marwick, who now works as a GP in Birmingham. 'Like all junior [doctors], I had to work shifts in Accident and Emergency for six months, and I felt constantly drained, and a feeling of jet lag the whole time. I felt under par continuously, which made me very stressed and irritable. At the end of a 36-hour shift I felt I was drunk. I couldn't concentrate, felt like I had to work hard and really think to get words out.'

Marwick, who shared her experiences with other doctors on the online forum Doctorsnet.org.uk, found that on a number of occasions she would be asked the next morning about something she had done the previous night at the end of a long period on call, and she would have no recollection of it, or even having been to the ward, or giving intravenous drugs.

'But the scariest time was when I fell asleep while driving home after a weekend on call. I was sitting at a traffic light in the city centre and I must have dozed off. A man had to come and knock on the car window and wake me up, and he said he had been beeping his horn and I had not moved for a good three minutes. It could have been fatal.'

For doctors at least, those long working hours have been reduced, as they have in other professions with new European rules. The irony is that, as our working hours lessen, we feel more tired than ever, perhaps because of all the other tasks that we impose on ourselves in our spare time. In the desperate desire for more sleep, an entire industry has grown up around the problem - university departments, journals, academics and clinics as well as a 'National Sleep Awareness Week' are there to make us aware of the problem. And so are the breathing masks, the nose pillows, the aromatherapy solutions and sleep clinics.

Even the people who started the research in laboratories, such as Jim Horne, are aware of the dilemma. One of them is Dr William Dement, who runs the Sleep Disorders Clinic at Stanford University in California and founded the concept of sleep medicine decades ago in the US. 'Nutrition, fitness and now sleep,' he told the New York Times recently. 'Twenty-five years ago, everyone started jogging and worried about their fitness. Now sleep is having its moment.'



Perchance to dream

Sleep is an altered state of consciousness, as opposed to an unconscious state. It allows the brain to undergo a complex recovery process, and as the brain 'winds down' into sleep mode, you physically become less aware of the surroundings.

Sleep is the regular state of natural rest observed in all mammals, birds and fish, and is characterised by a reduction in voluntary body movement.

The circadian rhythms which govern the body clock, and hormonal and environmental factors all affect your ability to sleep.

Sleep appears to perform a restorative function for the brain and body, and we know this because of the many symptoms of personality and behaviour change which are seen when humans and other animals are deprived of it.

Sleep is also a time for healing and growth. When you go into deep, or slow-wave sleep, growth hormone levels increase, and changes in immune function occur. In babies, sleep is essential for processing new information about the environment.

One process known to be highly dependent on sleep is memory. REM (rapid eye movement) sleep appears to help with the consolidation of spatial and procedural memory, which is the long-term memory of acquired skills essential for surviving in the modern world.

But another view is that sleep serves an evolutionary function in simply protecting people during the hours of night, at a time when roaming around would place the individual at greatest risk, according to some experts. Organisms don't require 24 hours to feed themselves and meet all other necessities, so they are safer asleep and out of harm's way.

They sleep, therefore, at times that maximise their safety, given their differing physical capacities and their various habitats.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focu...1750064,00.html
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  #222   ^
Old Sun, Apr-09-06, 15:18
nraden nraden is offline
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The most interesting part of that article is that there is no biology in it. They talk about cognitive deficit, for example, but not metabolic derangement.

Here's a fact - shift workers have the highest incidence of cancer. http://www.bccrc.ca/ccr/mborugia_shiftWork.html

-N
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  #223   ^
Old Mon, Apr-10-06, 15:32
CGraff CGraff is offline
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Neil,
if you sleep in total darkness with blackout shades, how does your body know when its morning? I used to like to wake up with the sun coming in my east window.
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  #224   ^
Old Mon, Apr-10-06, 15:54
nraden nraden is offline
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Your internal clock knows. As the morning homones rise and the sleeping hormones fall. I just don't remember which is which. They work in pairs: melatonin, seratonin, prolactin and cortisol.
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  #225   ^
Old Thu, Apr-13-06, 02:29
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Demi Demi is offline
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Default Could you be suffering from 'social jet lag'?

The Independent
London, UK


Could you be suffering from 'social jet lag'?

If you spend most of your life feeling like you've just stepped off a long-haul flight, you could be suffering from 'social jet lag'. Kate Hilpern reports
Published: 11 April 2006

It might be the middle of the day and I might be drowning in paperwork, but sometimes it's all I can do to resist sneaking forty winks into my afternoon routine. I'm not alone, it seems. More than half the population is in a permanent state of jet lag because our body clocks are so out of synch with the demands of modern life, and a new study has pinpointed some disturbing consequences of the condition.

"Social jet lag", a term coined by the researchers, can hit you even if your commute is more akin to travelling from Lewisham to Leicester Square than from Stansted to the States. But the effect is the same because your body clock is screaming one thing (that you should be in bed, for example) whereas the outside world says something else (that you should be in a meeting or getting the kids to school).

"Getting up in the morning and going to bed at night is not just a pure reaction to sunset and sunrise," explains Professor Till Roenneberg, who headed up the team of researchers at Ludwig-Maximilians University in Munich. "It's also down to your genes, which can determine how much of a night owl or early bird you are."

The distribution of owls and larks across the population is huge, he says, with a spread of more than 12 hours between people's natural rhythms. This means that if left to their own devices, the first lark would bounce out of bed well before the last owl nods off. This, of course, doesn't fit comfortably with most work routines, with the inevitable result that a lot of people wind up feeling fatigued.

Add to this the fact that we're working longer hours than ever and you'll see why social jet lag affects more than 50 per cent of us - especially when you learn that people who are stuck inside an office during daylight hours are the worst affected. "Bright light can help shift even the most extreme body clocks," says Professor Roenneberg. "But the amount of light in most offices is laughable. You would be lucky to get 400 lux [a unit of measurement of the intensity of light] at a bright vertical office window during the day, whereas outside on a cloudy day in summer you would experience more like 10,000 lux. If it's a blue sky, you could get as much as 150,000 lux."

For night owls, this is particularly bad news. The most natural response is to race out of work to enjoy the last of the sunlight, which only serves to reinforce the late body clock and make them feel groggy again the next morning.

Most worrying of all is that general tiredness is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the effects of social jet lag. "Your daytime vigilance is lower, which means that if you work, you may not focus on your job properly," says Professor Roenneberg. "We also found that people with social jet lag sleep more poorly and are more prone to suffering from stress and depression."

Then there's the impact on physical health. Indeed, actual jet lag - which has the same affect on the body - increases the risk of cardiovascular disease, certain cancers and other conditions. The British Dietetic Association adds that tiredness commonly leads to laziness about eating healthily. A spokesperson says: "Some people who are tired crave certain foods like fat or sugar, while others don't feel like eating at all. The outcome of any of these behaviours is that your body isn't getting the nutrition it needs to function at its best and you are also more prone to illness."

Professor Roenneberg's study even found that social jet lag can drive people to smoke. Seventy per cent of the night owls in the study were smokers, compared to just 10 per cent of people whose working lives fitted with their body clocks. These people tend to opt - usually subconsciously - for the stimulant effect of cigarettes just to get through the day, which carries a whole host of additional health risks.

"You could argue that night owls are more likely to smoke because they like being up until late and are therefore more likely to be in places like pubs and clubs, where smoking is commonplace," he says. "But if that were the case, you'd expect people who stay up late to smoke more than smokers who don't have problems with sleep timing. That is not the case. We can only conclude that people with social jet lag use smoking as self-medication," he says.

The study also claims to provide enlightenment on why most people take up smoking in their teens. "It's no coincidence that most people start smoking between 14 and 20 years old, when the body clock is at its latest ever," he says.

Throughout childhood and adolescence, he explains, the time we head for the bedroom, and get up in the morning, shifts to later, peaking at around age 20 before it starts creeping back again. By the time you've hit your twilight years and traded in your blond bob for a blue rinse, you're likely to prefer getting up as early as you did when you were a young child. "I'm not saying social jet lag is the only reason people take up smoking," says Professor Roenneberg. "There are clearly other issues like peer pressure and genetics. But if you suffer from social jet lag, you are probably more prone to become a smoker, and if you continue to suffer from social jet lag, you are probably going to find it harder to quit."

Professor Dirk-Jan Dijk, director of the Surrey Sleep Research Centre, agrees. "We already know that shift workers - who desynchronise their sleeping patterns more than anyone - smoke more than the average population, so these new findings make absolute sense," he says.

He also agrees with Professor Roenneberg that there may be a solution to social jet lag. "There is something to be said for the idea that making school schedules fit in with adolescents' natural rhythms would make youngsters more productive," he says.

Likewise, making work schedules more flexible could enable bosses to get more out of their employees. Some employers have already taken action by encouraging staff to take catnaps in a "ready bed" (a roll-up bed specially designed for use in the office) which is generally placed in a darkened corner of a meeting room. Meanwhile, a dedicated sleeping lounge has just opened at the top of the Empire State Building in New York to enable executives to catch up on some shut-eye during the working day.

But Professor Dijk believes such attempts are misguided when it comes to tackling social jet lag. Taking a nap can help, but there's as much chance that it will make you feel worse. The key for employers, he believes, is to make working hours more flexible overall so that people can have their main sleep when it best suits their body clock.

Hopeful larks and owls may have a long wait, however, particularly if their bosses concede to Jim Horne's views on the subject. The sleep expert from Loughborough University isn't convinced social jet lag even exists. "Yes, some people are more inclined to be alert in the evenings and others in the mornings. But to suggest that there is something wrong with them - that they are jet lagged - seems absurd," he says.

In fact, there are advantages to their state, he says. "Think of the expression, 'the early bird catches the worm'. Morning types up at the crack of dawn may get the best opportunities in terms of work. Meanwhile, owls who tend to go to bed later may be better socialisers because most social activities happen in the evenings."

The symptoms

Do you: Long for a lie-in - or have a lie-in - of several hours every weekend?

Regularly turn to the stimulants of cigarettes, coffee etc just to keep you functioning during the day?

Find yourself regularly wanting to go to bed much earlier or later than other people you know, and often feel "out of synch" with the world?

Frequently dream of having a siesta - and sometimes take the opportunity to take a nap during the day?

Feel groggy most mornings when you get to work and take a long time to "get going"?

How to beat social jet lag

Retrain your body clock: If you're a night owl, go for a morning walk, and wear sunglasses after 4pm. Conversely, early birds should make the most of the sunlight lasting later into the evenings.

Get into a regular sleeping pattern: Night owls who make the most of lying in for a few extra hours at weekends will delay their body clock and wind up feeling groggy on Monday and Tuesday.

Avoid stimulants: Don't drink caffeine or alcohol before bed, and while exercise will help you sleep, make sure you're finished three hours before bedtime.

Don't smoke: Smoking can interfere with our sleeping patterns. So while you might smoke to keep yourself awake you'll actually worsen your social jet lag.

Get a job that suits your rhythms: Larks make great postal workers, while working in a nightclub will suit serious owls. Or, convince your boss that you'll work more productively around your natural sleeping patterns.

Sleep well: Dr Adrian Williams, who runs the sleep centre at St Thomas' Hospital in London, says: "We are a sleep-deprived society. The average amount of sleep needed by adults is 8.1 hours, yet most of us only get around seven."

Use light therapy: If natural light is hard to come by, £100 can buy a mobile source.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/he...ticle357119.ece
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