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  #61   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 12:03
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gostrydr
Uhh Dane..if you have read any of my past posts, you'll see that I have written alot of Excercise Post Oxygen Consumption..
EPOC, especially when it comes to the myth of a "fat burning zone" and "target heart rate" for cardio
Sorry, I haven't read all of your posts, and the ones I have read never mentioned EPOC. Please note I didn't instruct YOU personally to google EPOC, just people who are reading along,
Quote:
It has to do with not how much fat your burn while you excercise but hours after you excercise..So what's your point on that regarding carb intake??
My point was not regarding EPOC and carb intake, but rather the fact that you WILL burn calories for many hours beyond the exercise, providing you were able to exercise with intensity. If one needs to eat some carbs prior to exercising in order to maintain intensity, then it will benefit them to do so, as any fat-burning that those carbs would inhibit will be more than compensated for by EPOC.
Quote:
Tell me which carbs bulid bone? I know there are some leafy greens that have an ok amount of calcium and other co-factors,but carbs are not usually known for their bone building properties.
Right. Please reread what I wrote. I see now, rereading, that I may not have been clear. I wrote:
"Basically, you eat some carbs so as to be able to exercise intensely, which will do a lot of good things for you (bone health, maintenance of muscle tissue, etc.)"
I bolded the important stuff...my emphasis was that exercise intensity does the good things, not the carbs.
Quote:
I am well versed on TKD,CKD..I get Lyle Mcdonalds newsletter every week and I have corresponded with him on some personal issues.
From your understanding about carbs around workouts, it is obvious that you are NOT well-versed in TKD/CKD's. I also get Lyle's newsletters, have corresponded with him in e-mail, AND am an active member on his website. So?

Quote:
Do I agree with everything he says? No, but I take a little from him, a little from Will Brink,Dipasquale,Duchaine, Michael Mooney and others and come to my own conclusions.
As do I, though my list of gurus differs from yours,
Quote:
You have found what has worked for you..great. So why is it that I speak half truths?
If I attempt to list them all, I'll REALLY be accused of threadjacking. So, here's just one:
Quote:
I would never drink Oj in the first place, but it is silly before a workout. It would be like drinking a coke...You could actually hamper your performance with unstable blood sugar levels.. some may do well with it, but it could be disasturous....I'm not crazy about eating any carbs preworkout..it is fuel, so again, why would your body burn the fuel you have stored.....Carbs are the bodies preferred fuel source..so why take them in? Why then would your body burn fat??
Again, if you knew anything about TKD, for example, you would know that it's desirable to take in "fast" carbs prior to lifting, and will not "hamper your performance", but rather enhance it. I already explained why it's good to take in carbs as fuel, etc.

I think it's helpful that you've been around the famous and elite, but remember their circumstances (and resources) are not the same as the everyday person's, so you can't apply their programs/practices either, expecting to get the same results.

Quote:
So what I do, is try and put forth what I believe to be true from what I have seen...real world experiences and results. I do not want to debate you either..you have alot of knowledge..but I am trying to help people by saving them a lot of frustration when it comes to diet,supplementation and excercise.
I'm cool with that. If you were just voicing your own opinions that'd be one thing, but you are making them seem like statements of fact, and that's not helpful.

Quote:
But remember this, 70% of our population has some sort of glucose intolerance or some form of blood sugar abnormality.

For that 70% TKD or CKD can be devastating to the weight loss goals and their excercise performance.

I am one of those..
It can work very well for anyone with those problems--it may need some tweaking, but don't deny someone the opportunity to try it by condemning it.

As for the glutamine:
Quote:
Give it a try Dane and see for yourself. I promise all your hard earned muscle will not melt away if you do not have any carbs after your workout.
I DON'T have carbs post workout; I take them pre-workout. I have no need to experiment with glutamine because there is overwhelming evidence--not ANECDOTE, but EVIDENCE--that it doesn't work miracles for recovery. I noticed you never answer my questions, but here's another one anyway---what happens to glutamine in the human gut? How much of that 30g you recommend will actually get past my gut and to the muscles?

I'll give you a hint---nada!

From yer buddy Lyle:
Glutamine = one of the most overrated and utterly useless supplements for muscle growth. it works great for stimualting protein synthesis IF you toss it into msucle cells in a test tube. it does some nice things with trauma/burn patients. And does less than jack sh*t orally in healthy humans at even massive doses. it doesn't spare muscle whiel dieting and it doesn't impact on anabolism. yet it refuses to die as a supplement.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fo...light=glutamine

And here's some more glutamine goodness:

GLUTAMINE SUPPLEMENTATION DID NOT BENEFIT ATHLETES DURING SHORT-TERM WEIGHT REDUCTION
Kevin, J. Finn1, Robin Lund1 and Mona Rosene-Treadwell2
1University of Northern Iowa, USA
2 South Dakota State University, USA

© Journal of Sports Science and Medicine (2003) 2, 163-168
The purpose was to determine if glutamine supplementation would prevent a loss of lean mass in athletes during a 12-day weight reduction program. It was hypothesized that supplementation would spare lean body mass. Subjects (n=18) exercised and dieted to create a 4186kJ·day-1 energy deficit and a 8372 kJ·day-1 energy deficit on days 1-5, days 6-12, respectively. The glutamine (GLN) group (n=9) ingested 0.35 g·kg-1 body mass of glutamine while a placebo was administered to the remaining subjects. Body mass (BM), lean body mass (LBM) and fat mass (FM), were measured at days 0, 6, and 12. GLN and placebo groups both lost significant amounts of BM, LBM and FM. There were no significant differences between groups. The findings indicate little benefit for retention of lean mass with supplementation of glutamine during a short-term weight reduction program.
http://www.jssm.org/vol2/n4/7/v2n4-7text.php#1
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  #62   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 12:30
LoveMyGSDs's Avatar
LoveMyGSDs LoveMyGSDs is offline
Strong Chicks Rock!!
Posts: 8,999
 
Plan: Atkins (total, not net)
Stats: 194/151.2/150 Female 5'5"
BF:35.8%/19%/17%
Progress: 97%
Location: MD
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Quote:
Quote:
But remember this, 70% of our population has some sort of glucose intolerance or some form of blood sugar abnormality.

For that 70% TKD or CKD can be devastating to the weight loss goals and their excercise performance.


I am one of those..

It can work very well for anyone with those problems--it may need some tweaking, but don't deny someone the opportunity to try it by condemning it.

I just wanted to say that I AM one of those people. I'm hypoglycemic and insulin resistant and was very wary of doing refeeds. However, they've improved my performance in the gym. My strength gains in just 3 weeks have been fantastic. I've also suffered no ill effects (read hypoglycemic symptoms) from doing the refeeds in conjunction with my workouts. I've also lost more weight in the last 3 weeks, then I did in the prior 3 months.

So, CKD can be beneficial to both weight loss goals and exercise performance in someone with a blood sugar abnormality.

Like Galatia, I can only offer my own personal experience for others to consider.
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  #63   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 12:55
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
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Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
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oooohh.. you are wrong about glutamine..I suggest higher doses due to the fact that the gut uses a large part of it..and your immune system.

That's why I post that it is futile to take in anything less than 5 grams per serving, unless you are opening a cap and letting it dissolve under your tongue for carb cravings.

And again..yes it fricking works!! I've seen it time and time again. And there is a fine example of an opinion of Lyles that I don't agree with.



I can show you studies that do..

here is an article from Mauro Dipasquale who is one of the most respected sports nutrition experts out there

What Is Glutamine & How Can It Help Me?

Glutamine is one of the most important amino acids in the body in that it fuels both the gut and immune system and maximizes protein synthesis. Besides being so versatile, or perhaps because of that, recent studies and articles suggest that glutamine can be used as a marker of over-training.1,2,3

There are several markers that can be used to determine if someone is over-trained.4 One of them may be by measuring glutamine.

A study last year looked at various parameters of successful training, including glutamine, and found that although none of the other parameters measured (including serum hormone and cortisol levels) showed any significant changes during the training season, glutamine levels correlated with the degree of successful training, which was measured by improvements in performance. The elevations in plasma glutamine concentration observed in response to long-term balanced training in this study may be distinguishable from previous reports of decreased glutamine concentrations in over-trained athletes. Making it a potentially valuable tool in the monitoring of over-training in athletes.

The other side of the coin of course is to see if the use of supplemental glutamine has a positive effect on both preventing and alleviating the over-training syndrome. I believe that it would since glutamine not only increases protein synthesis and decreases protein breakdown but it also has positive effects on the immune system, which in turn can affect various parameters of the over-training syndrome.

As well, glutamine has recently been shown that it may act both as a substrate and as a regulator of gluconeogenesis (the production of glucose from other substrates such as amino acids, glycerol and lactic acid).5 This is important because it provides a vital supply of fuel for muscles and other tissues including the brain, and may thus improve muscle and cognitive function during training and help attenuate some aspects of over-training.

Glutamine is showing itself to be one of the most versatile and useful nutrients for sports performance. For example, a study published this year showed that glycogen resynthesis rates were higher after ingestion of a drink containing glutamine and other peptides in comparison to a drink containing just free glutamine.6

Even more interesting was a study published last year. This study looked at the effects of glutamine in promoting whole body carbohydrate storage and muscle glycogen resynthesis during recovery from exhaustive exercise.7

In this study, postabsorptive subjects (subjects have no digestion going on in the GI tract so that no nutrients are forthcoming from any food ingested) completed a glycogen-depleting exercise protocol. After their exercise they consumed 330 ml of one of three drinks, 18.5% glucose polymer solution, 8 g glutamine in 330 ml glucose polymer solution, or 8 g glutamine in 330 ml placebo. In addition, they received a primed constant infusion of glucose for 2 hours.

The authors found that Plasma glutamine concentration was increased after consumption of the glutamine drinks and that oral glutamine alone promoted storage of muscle glycogen to an extent similar to oral glucose polymer. Ingestion of glutamine and glucose polymer together promoted the storage of carbohydrate outside of skeletal muscle, the most feasible site being the liver. While we still need more studies to nail down all the specifics of the effects of glutamine on sports performance and exercise, the bottom line is, supplemental glutamine can have significant effects on many aspects of your training and help you achieve your sports and fitness goals.


[ Be Sure To Also Check Out ]
All About Muscle Fatigue. :: Restoration And Recovery Techniques!
References

1. Walsh NP, Blannin AK, Robson PJ, et al., Glutamine, exercise and immune function. Links and possible mechanisms. Sports Med 1998 Sep;26(3):177-91.
2. Rowbottom, D. G., D. Keast, P. Garcia-Webb, et al., Training adaptation and biological changes among well-trained male triathletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc Vol. 29, No. 9, pp. 1233-1239, 1997.
3. Rowbottom DG, Keast D, Morton AR. The emerging role of glutamine as an indicator of exercise stress and overtraining. Sports Med 1996 Feb;21(2):80-97.
4. McKenzie DC. Markers of excessive exercise. Can J Appl Physiol 1999 Feb;24(1):66-73.




But again ,I could care less why you think it is a good idea to take in carbs before you workout. I totally disagree..but again if this is what works for you ..great.



I have experience on my side and I go with what I know to be true.

Those who accept it great, those who don't great..

And talking about making statements as fact..that's all you've been doing to prove that this theory you sign up for works.

So as far as EPOC..your body will burn those carbs that you ingested for fuel,to help get you through your workout,,only,... but after your workout, it will tap into your bodies fat stores and then burn that for hours longer??

Help me here Dane..I'm pretty dumb, this seems way over my head.

So I'll stick to what I believe and you stick to what you believe..
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  #64   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 17:43
lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Plan: my own
Stats: 155/155/150 Male 5'7"
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since apparently someone is dropping my name to make a dumb argument

yes, insulin blocks lipolysis

news-flash: you don't burn fat during weight training workouts and maintaining proper workout intensity with pre-workout carbs on a lowcarb diet is a zillion times more important than worrying about insulin

if you're going to quote me, get it right

Lyle
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  #65   ^
Old Sun, Jul-15-07, 01:17
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
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Quote:
Help me here Dane..I'm pretty dumb, this seems way over my head.
Lyle got you covered,

It's not a matter of belief, but of basic human physiology.
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  #66   ^
Old Sun, Jul-15-07, 09:38
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
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While I'm not sure I quoted Lyle..again I do not agree with him on this..
New flash.. I am well aware that you do not burn fat during a workout, just like I know you do not build muscle during a workout.

Yes he will know more than I ever will, but for a lot of us, preworkout carbs can be disasturous.

They do not fuel MY workout, in fact it makes it worse...

Gee Dane, I thought all of our physiology was unique.. from one person to another.

So I guess what you are saying is that the millions of people who lose weight via low carb or zero carb diets and who do not take in preworkout carbs are doing it all wrong.

So from here on out..

I will swallow swill like OJ before my workout..prediabetes or not.

I will no longer take Glutamine for any reason..even after selling hundreds of tubs of it from my store and having people giving me positive feedback..which includes professional athletes.


I will no longer eat red meat. It is overated as a protein source and it really doesn't matter the source as long as you are getting enough.

I bow before you o wise Dane!
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  #67   ^
Old Sun, Jul-15-07, 11:39
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
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It's really pointless to discuss anything further as you aren't comprehending what I write, or else just choosing to ignore it.
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  #68   ^
Old Sun, Jul-15-07, 11:46
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
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I do choose to ingore you based on the fact that I feel you are wrong..

Yeah that TKD and CKD is pretty tough stuff.

I said if this system works for you great..

Mine works for me..great

Again, I base my beliefs on what I have seen and experienced and being in this industry.

Isn't it about time for your carb up?
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  #69   ^
Old Tue, Nov-04-08, 06:55
Razwell Razwell is offline
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Posts: 21
 
Plan: anthony colpos
Stats: 180/171/171 Male 6' 1"
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Let's clear some things up:

EPOC is NOT significant AT ALL- complete non factor. It will only burn another 80 calories over the next 24 hours. One oreo cookie could wipe this out.

The resting metabolic rate of muscle is 6 calories per pound. You will only burn 6 more calories for each pound of muscle added.


"The key to fat loss is an ENERGY DEFICIT" - Anthony Colpo




And one more thing:


HIIT has NEVER been shown any better for fat loss than regular cardio. Dr. Tremblay himself ADMITS this.

STOP misrepresenting Dr. Tremblay's original 1994 study comparing intervals with steady state for fat loss, you HIIT promoting scum.


ANY WAY you can create am ENERGY DEFICIT (creating a chronic negative energy balance over time ) will work for fat loss , but HIIT does NOT burn many calories at all compared to regular cardio of 30 minutes or more , so you will have to be VERY , VERY STRICT and CAREFUL about energy intake if you chose HIIT.
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  #70   ^
Old Wed, Nov-05-08, 08:16
kbfunTH's Avatar
kbfunTH kbfunTH is offline
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Posts: 1,240
 
Plan: UDS
Stats: 199/190/190 Male 69
BF:12%/11%/6%
Progress: 100%
Location: Pflugerville, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razwell
Let's clear some things up:

EPOC is NOT significant AT ALL- complete non factor. It will only burn another 80 calories over the next 24 hours. One oreo cookie could wipe this out.

The resting metabolic rate of muscle is 6 calories per pound. You will only burn 6 more calories for each pound of muscle added.


"The key to fat loss is an ENERGY DEFICIT" - Anthony Colpo




And one more thing:


HIIT has NEVER been shown any better for fat loss than regular cardio. Dr. Tremblay himself ADMITS this.

STOP misrepresenting Dr. Tremblay's original 1994 study comparing intervals with steady state for fat loss, you HIIT promoting scum.


ANY WAY you can create am ENERGY DEFICIT (creating a chronic negative energy balance over time ) will work for fat loss , but HIIT does NOT burn many calories at all compared to regular cardio of 30 minutes or more , so you will have to be VERY , VERY STRICT and CAREFUL about energy intake if you chose HIIT.


If I had a high-five icon, I put about 20 of them right here! Throw one extra high-five right next to the part about increase muscle mass improving the metabolism. It's insignificant as well.

MODS: Please add a high-five icon to our smilies list.
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