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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Oct-12-01, 08:07
nsmith4366's Avatar
nsmith4366 nsmith4366 is offline
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Plan: Atkins KISS
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Default Barry Grove and WHY it works.

I'm sure you are interested in the book/here's a lengthy and interesting description of why calorie counting is silly. Why you should eat fat and protein first and limit carbs. Sorry it's long. Some is from his book some is from what I know.

Trying to paraphrase and summarize: some of this is from the book, some from my own exercise phisiology background. Groves doesn't think ketosis is necessary for weightloss, but doesn't say much against it.

The measuring of how many "calories" a food has is done by using a machine called a "bomb calorimeter". Each food is burned and the amount of heat measured in kcals is burned off. Each food gets a number - it's kcals or calories. But this is only part of the story. Rounding, and they do that, 1gm of carb = 4.2 kcal, 1 gm of protein 5.25 kcal but 1 kcal is deducted because protein does not oxidize readily and releases urea which must be subtracted. 1 gm of fat 9.2 kcals.

So that's how we get our calorie amounts for the food that the calorometer eats. But the calorometer does nothing with the food once it's burned. WE DO and its THERE where our bodies create the differences that lead to the metabolic advantage.

1st flaw. Our bodies do not burn foods all equally in the same way as a calorometer does (the device used to determine a foods caloric value). Our bodies produce Ketones as you all know when we do eat fat. Guess what? It take energy to MAKE ketones and the energy required to produce 1 gm of ketone is 4 calories. Okay, what was 1 gm of fat again? 9 calories? So, in this case, nearly half the energy from the fat is lost and fat truely has (if one is producing ketones) only half the caloric value of the accepted norm.

2nd flaw - Protein. When we eat protein our bodies do NOT respond as if we have eaten something with the function of producing ENERGY - it responds as if we have eaten a "building block" for cell repair and it treats protein in just that way. We use the protein for all kinds of body functioning/not energy production - and these calories must be deducted from the total protein calories consumed to get an accuarate consumption measurement of remaining available calories to the body (excess). Your body is USING protein, not just either sending it for energy or storage purposes only. This USING of protein uses calories too - and therefore less remains available once the process is completed.

Carbs. Carbs promote an instant release of insulin. Insulin surges/we get MORE much MORE than we need in our bloodstream and IF the carb are not expended (not in ketosis) then the carbs will be stored by insulin into the muscles of the body as glucose. IF this glucose is NOT used in a timely manner through exercise - then they will be converted to increasing the size of our fat cells. NOW IF YOU ARE IN KETOSIS - then there is very minimal to no insulin release due to very low carbohydate consumption. Less or no insulin release = less or no hunger and less or no conversion of carbs to glucose...leading to weight gain.

WHy fat doesn't MAKE you fat. 3 reasons. 1. Alot of fat calories are expended to make ketones. 2. Fat fills you up and you stop eating sooner. 3. Fat does not promote insulin release. So?

Eat the fat first. If your body needs 10 gms of fat to make you feel that "full" feeling, then you will continue to eat and eat until you consume that 10 gm of fat. If you eat those 10 gms of fat as cheddar cheese, you will feel full/slow or stop your eating at 125 cals.
IF you try to meet your 10g fat quota using bread thinly spread with a very low-fat spread, you will require 8 slices to meet your 10g fat need! Thats about 500 calories!!! And these are CARB calories and you now KNOW what your body does with those!
Until you get your 10g or whatever of fat you won't stop being hungry - you will crave and eat that bread (actually you are craving the fat in the bread NOT the bread itself!) until you have met your 10g fat need for that meal.

So?
Eat your protein and fats first! You'll feel full sooner, stop eating sooner (not a big deal regarding cals if you are in ketosis however) -(if you abide by your true appetite/fullness factor) and you WON'T be consuming carbs that trigger insulin release and cause glucose storage/fat production and have very little fat - requiring you to eat many many more cals to feel FULL.

Get your fat/feel full/avoid carbs - carbs.

When I eat protein I know it's being used to help my body funtion. Some is used for energy but the amount used for functioning should be subtracted from the original amount consumed. No we will never know that amount exactly which is why counting calories is not only inaccurate but not even calculat"able".
- when I eat fat I know it will make me feel full faster than any other type of calories (and also helps my body function). I avoid carbs for obvious reasons stated here.

Not enough new stuff in there? NEW TO ME.
Okay, fine, not all fat, protein is used for energy production and this is the metabolic advantage (protein is somewhat thermogenic too, these functions it helps perform actually raise body temp/metabolism and it does take more energy to BURN protein than other foods) but so? None of this is news to you???

How you lose weight on low carb whether you are in ketosis or not:

Let's talk THE GLYCOGENIC FACTOR OF DIFFERENT FOODS.

GlYCEMIC INDEX OF FOOD: How much a food raises your insulin level.

differs from -

GLYCOGENIC FACTOR OF FOOD: The process by which food is stored as glucose by your body.

So lets explore this GLYCOGENIC factor of the food!

Glycogenesis is the process by which food is stored as glcose and then to glycogen and then eventually to fat in the body. Eating foods that are highly glycogenic does lead to weight gain. Carbohydrate is 100% glycogenic. Protein is 58% glycogenic. Fat is only 10% glycogenic!!! This fat is the least likely way you will put on weight and the best at getting weight off because it makes us feel full and does not promote a release of insulin.

Barry Groves believes that keeping carbs low (high glycogenic foods very low) results in weightloss on this principle, making ketosis not necessary. I agree with this but feel ketosis is necessary for ME due to its appetite suppressant qualities and the "good feelings" it gives me of constant energy.

There is so much more in this book. I can't paraphrase it all. You can order it from the website above. It's from the UK.

Nsmith4366
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Jan-01-02, 11:22
cosima22's Avatar
cosima22 cosima22 is offline
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Posts: 23
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 178/167.5/130
BF:
Progress: 22%
Location: New York
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I just read your description of "Barry Groves Book". First of all - thank you so much - you are really a GOOD writer! Second, can you tell me the name of the book/plan or more info? You say there is a link to get the book - but I do not see it - what is the name or diet name? Amazon does not come up with any thing.

Thanks, best regards for a great New Year!
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Jan-01-02, 12:00
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Posts: 37,201
 
Plan: LC paleo/ancestral
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
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hi Cosima,

Barry Groves book is titled "Eat Fat, Get Thin". You can read more about the book, as well as a number of well-researched articles by Barry at his website, Second Opinions.

You may also find his discussion of The Cholesterol Myth and The Naive Vegetarian to be very enlightening.

happy reading

Doreen
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Jan-02-02, 17:04
cosima22's Avatar
cosima22 cosima22 is offline
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Posts: 23
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 178/167.5/130
BF:
Progress: 22%
Location: New York
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Thanks Doreen - I am on my way there right now! AND by the way your new picture is really great! You look lovely. Keep up the wonderful work and thanks for the info.
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  #5   ^
Old Sat, Jan-05-02, 16:16
mariah974 mariah974 is offline
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Posts: 29
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 268/185/145
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: nokomis, florida
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hello all and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

thanks for this latest tidbit, actually, ear full, on fat reducing food cravings. i have read it all over the years, starting with a book called eat fat, grow thin by a different author than the one you mentioned published maybe in the '50's. i'm still struggling with getting re-started after a 4 month + lapse. this was exactly the news i needed to hear right now!

each day i have started with no carbs, mostly low fat food. now i know what to change to keep from falling off the wagon before the day is over.

i'm still housebound with my ailing husband. our wonderful hospice counselor helped me set a "minimum" business plan, including the business of getting back on track again. i am to figure a minimum for each part of my life and at least do that. for instance, riding bike just 20 minutes 5 days a week, instead of my usual 40, which time just doesn't allow. one massage client a day for four days, not four clients a day, and finding someone to cover for me at home while i do that. i'm finding that most days, by noon i have accomplished my minimums, feel successful instead of distressed over "not getting more done". tea time is still my weakest time for cravings. hoping having a little fat then will turn the tide.

i know so well the good feeling diet, now to get back on it and get the good feelings back.

thank you all for the love and support. i feel your energy whenever i hook onto these threads.
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  #6   ^
Old Sat, Jan-05-02, 16:36
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Posts: 37,201
 
Plan: LC paleo/ancestral
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by mariah974
thanks for this latest tidbit, actually, ear full, on fat reducing food cravings. i have read it all over the years, starting with a book called eat fat, grow thin by a different author than the one you mentioned published maybe in the '50's. .
hi mariah,

You must be so tired with all the stresses, glad you have some hospice support. The book you're referring to, "Eat Fat and Grow Slim" by Dr. Richard Mackarness .. was originally published in 1958, with updated edtions in 1961 and 1975. Our very own Andy Davies has written a review of the book, you can read it here.

Good for you to get back on track, it's not easy for sure. Try having some protein along with the fat for your tea break. A hard-boiled egg, some cold cooked meat, a piece of cheese. This will also have staying power .. plus it's protein that will help to keep your blood sugar stable, so you won't have the dips and swings that make a person feel so blahh!

take care, and keep us posted how you're doing

Doreen
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Jan-05-02, 17:05
mariah974 mariah974 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 29
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 268/185/145
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: nokomis, florida
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hi doreen,

thanks for the reply. you must feel exhilarated at your success, you look wonderful. i remember when i came down from 269 and hit under 200 , wow, it felt good. i was down to 20 lbs. from my goal weight in aug., now have gained back about 25 lbs. i know that when this is all over here, which shouldn't be too much longer, that i will have the peace i need to really look out for myself again. my husband has stopped eating, so one of the traps is removed, the one of finding foods to appeal to him. hospice nurse suggested all the creamy, sugary things and i had them in the fridge, so i've been very vulnerable there. in this quest for better health for tim over the years, i bought, prepared and consequently ate a lot of food in his name. it was only when i started living in florida alone that i could get the weight off.

my daughter has re-married and she was pondering the marriage/weight-gain connection today, as she is putting on a little. anyone have any answers there?

i'll check out the book site. thanks.
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