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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Mar-09-04, 01:21
PacNW PacNW is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 243
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 245/195/170 Male 5 10
BF:
Progress: 67%
Default Dr.s/Big Pharma Reducing Acceptable LDL to 100 or Less

There is a report in the NYT on Monday regarding a NEJM article due out 4/8/04 regarding lowering the recommended LDL level. This almost assuredly will lead to more people being presecribed statins in general and Lipitor in particlular.

Good for the drug cos. Good for the Dr.s who write prescriptions. But what do people here think?
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Mar-09-04, 07:17
eddiemcm's Avatar
eddiemcm eddiemcm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,191
 
Plan: south beach
Stats: 225/170/165 Male 70 inches
BF:
Progress: 92%
Location: Houston,Texas
Lightbulb total cholesterol matters

The Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Test(MRFIT) was based
on 361,662 men in the 35-57 age category.This study definitely
shows the importance of keeping total cholesterol below 200.
For a total cholesterol of 200,4 deaths per 1000 men occured
per year via stroke or heart attack.For a total cholesterol of
240,8 deaths per 1000.For 300,16 deaths per 1000.
Need I say more about the importance of total cholesterol?
There are many inexpensive nonprescription remedies to bring
down cholesterol:
1. 600 mg of beta sitosterol per day
2. 900 mg of pantethine per day
3. 20 mg of policosanol a day
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Mar-09-04, 09:52
PacNW PacNW is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 243
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 245/195/170 Male 5 10
BF:
Progress: 67%
Default

Quote:
Need I say more about the importance of total cholesterol?


Go for it. Those total cholesterol numbers may indicate nothing more than a high LDL/HDL ratio. Which is more impt, total or ratio?

My understanding is that lower TriG is a key indicator or risk. High total cholesterol may be associated with high trig, meaning high total cholesterol is not the driver.

Finally, high cholesterol may be associated with inflammation which the Dr.s really don't understand yet (other than know that it is impt.) That would mean that high cholesterol is no more related to CHD than a fireman to the fire.

So, go ahead and say more.
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Mar-09-04, 11:09
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,767
 
Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/167/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 116%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiemcm
The Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Test(MRFIT) was based
on 361,662 men in the 35-57 age category.This study definitely
shows the importance of keeping total cholesterol below 200.
For a total cholesterol of 200,4 deaths per 1000 men occured
per year via stroke or heart attack.For a total cholesterol of
240,8 deaths per 1000.For 300,16 deaths per 1000.
Need I say more about the importance of total cholesterol?

NHLBI’s Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT) studied the relationship between heart disease and serum cholesterol levels in 362,000 men and found that annual deaths from CHD varied from slightly less than one per thousand at serum cholesterol levels below 140 mg/dL, to about two per thousand for serum cholesterol levels above 300 mg/dL, once again a trivial difference. Dr. John LaRosa of the American Heart Association claimed that the curve for CHD deaths began to “inflect” after 200 mg/dL, when in fact the “curve” was a very gradually sloping straight line that could not be used to predict whether serum cholesterol above certain levels posed a significantly greater risk for heart disease. One unexpected MRFIT finding the media did not report was that deaths from all causes—cancer, heart disease, accidents, infectious disease, kidney failure, etc.—were substantially greater for those men with cholesterol levels below 160 mg/dL.
http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/oiling2.html
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Mar-09-04, 17:29
maggie2's Avatar
maggie2 maggie2 is offline
New Member
Posts: 4
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 204/154/140 Female 5ft4in
BF:
Progress: 78%
Location: michigan
Default high LDL

My LDL has been rising ever since I started Atkins 10 months ago. It is now 220 and my doctor is putting me on Lipitor but says to continue the diet. I go for my regular physical next month and I will see what all the numbers are. I am going to cut down on my eggs and salami sticks and TRY to cut down on the pure De Lite candy bars that I love. I am so glad I can eat low carb yogert now. I've been taking garlic, fish oil and a colestrol support vitamin all along but they have been no help.

Maggie2
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  #6   ^
Old Sat, Mar-13-04, 21:05
CindySue48's Avatar
CindySue48 CindySue48 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,816
 
Plan: Atkins/Protein Power
Stats: 256/179/160 Female 68 inches
BF:38.9/27.2/24.3
Progress: 80%
Location: Triangle NC
Default

Thanks for posting Dodger!

Check out the Reasearch and Media forum too! There are a lot of references on there that will help understand the cholesterol numbers.
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Mar-15-04, 06:53
PacNW PacNW is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 243
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 245/195/170 Male 5 10
BF:
Progress: 67%
Default More Questions

March 15, 2004
Scientists Begin to Question Benefit of 'Good' Cholesterol
By GINA KOLATA

or years, doctors have been saying that to prevent heart disease, patients should pay attention to both the so-called bad cholesterol, or L.D.L., and the good cholesterol, or H.D.L. The good, they said, can counteract the bad.

But now, some scientists say, new and continuing studies have called into question whether high levels of the good cholesterol are always good and, when they are beneficial, how much.

While some heart experts are not ready to change their treatment advice, others have concluded that H.D.L. should play at most a minor role in deciding whether to prescribe cholesterol-lowering drugs. In the meantime, doctors are calling researchers and asking what to do about patients with high H.D.L. levels, or what to do when their own H.D.L. levels are high, and patients are left with conflicting advice.

"There is so much confusion about this that it is unbelievable," said Dr. Steven Nissen, a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic.

The good cholesterol hypothesis comes from studies like the Framingham Heart Study, which has followed thousands of people in Framingham, Mass., for decades to see who developed heart disease. The studies showed that if two people had the same levels of the bad cholesterol, L.D.L., but different levels of the good cholesterol, H.D.L., the one with more H.D.L. was less likely to have heart disease.

Researchers examining the biochemistry of the two molecules learned that they have opposite roles. Both transport cholesterol, the fatty substance used to make cell membranes and some hormones, but they carry it in opposite directions.

L.D.L. ferries cholesterol to coronary arteries, where it imbeds and participates in the growth of plaque. H.D.L. takes cholesterol away from arteries to the liver, where it is disposed of.

So with epidemiological studies showing reduced heart disease risk and science showing why, it would seem the picture was clear: the more H.D.L. the better. One H.D.L. molecule might even cancel one of L.D.L.

Too simplistic, says Dr. Daniel Rader, a cholesterol researcher at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. "Yes, high H.D.L. is generally a good thing, but it doesn't mean it is so powerful that it creates a total immunity to heart disease," he said.

Dr. Rader and others say, for example, that there are people who have high levels of H.D.L., but the H.D.L. does not function properly. Instead of being protected from heart disease, these patients may be particularly vulnerable. A simple H.D.L. measurement does not reveal whether a person's high level is good or bad.

Cholesterol researchers say that every clinic has patients with high levels of H.D.L. who ended up with heart disease. The average H.D.L. level for men is 40 to 50 milligrams per deciliter of blood and for women 50 to 60. But, even when H.D.L. levels are much higher, "the L.D.L. can overpower the H.D.L.," said Dr. Christie Ballantyne of Baylor College of Medicine.

Many are like 60-year-old Thomas E. Siko of Chagrin Falls, Ohio, who thought he had nothing to worry about. Heart disease runs in his family on both sides, but no doctor had ever suggested cholesterol-lowering medication. His H.D.L. level was high, at 72, and his L.D.L. only mildly elevated, at 121. (National guidelines say that an L.D.L. level of less than 100 is optimal; 100 to 129 is near or above optimal, depending on other factors; and above 130 is high.)

But last year, after being tested for what he thought was indigestion, Mr. Siko ended up having bypass surgery. Now, with a cholesterol-lowering statin, his L.D.L. level is down to 72 while his H.D.L. is 70. He feels fine. "I run four miles a day," Mr. Siko said.

Part of the confusion arises from an evolving view of the immense importance of reducing L.D.L. levels. Two recent studies, one announced last week, the other published the week before, found that ultra-low levels of L.D.L., down to the 60's or 70's, can protect heart patients from plaque growth in their arteries and from heart attacks and deaths. That raised questions among many doctors and patients of whether their own L.D.L. levels really were optimal and whether their good cholesterol really was canceling out the bad.

Dr. Rader is leading a large study on genetic variations causing high H.D.L. that is trying to sort the question out. But for now he says, "I really don't feel that treatment for high L.D.L. should be withheld just because the H.D.L. level is high."

Instead, Dr. Rader puts high H.D.L. levels to the side and looks at L.D.L. and other risk factors, like a family history of heart disease. If L.D.L. levels and other risk factors tell him to treat, he prescribes L.D.L.-lowering medication. If he is undecided, he brings the high H.D.L. levels back into the picture, allowing them to push him toward or away from treatment.

Dr. Bryan Brewer, chief of the molecular disease branch of the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute, said no one should ignore high levels of L.D.L. "If you have a high L.D.L. level you should be concerned about it, independently of your H.D.L. You are still at risk," he said.

Dr. Nissen says he focuses on L.D.L. so much that he mostly discounts H.D.L. in deciding whether to give cholesterol-lowering drugs to patients with heart disease or to those with high L.D.L. levels and other risk factors like high blood pressure or a family history of heart disease. He notes that statins are safe drugs that reduce L.D.L. levels and that study after study has shown that lowering L.D.L. prevents heart attacks and deaths.

He says that recent research bears him out. His study, published this month in the Journal of the American Medical Association, looked directly at the accumulation of plaque in coronary arteries when heart patients took cholesterol-lowering drugs. Their H.D.L. levels, he said, played no role in plaque growth; the only thing that mattered was what happened to L.D.L. When L.D.L. levels dropped, plaque growth slowed. That means, Dr. Nissen concludes, that the benefit of lowering L.D.L. is the same whether H.D.L. levels are high or low.

Others have different views on how to weigh H.D.L. in treatment decisions. Many, like Dr. Alan Garber, a professor of internal medicine at Stanford, look at overall risk. The starting place, he says, is assessing how likely it is that people will have heart attacks, given everything known about their L.D.L. and H.D.L. levels, their blood pressure, their family history and whether they smoke or have diabetes.

Dr. Garber said that with data from recent studies, it looked increasingly safe to treat high L.D.L. levels and ignore other factors. But, he said, "that's not the way I would do it." One concern is that people who are otherwise at low risk for heart disease would gain little by taking drugs to reduce their L.D.L. levels but would spend years paying for the drugs, which can cost $100 a month.

Dr. David Waters, of the University of California at San Francisco, also looks at overall risk, but lets a high H.D.L. level counteract one of the other predisposing factors to heart disease in deciding who needs to take drugs to lower L.D.L. levels.

With different doctors using such different reasoning, doctors and patients say they can be frustrated and confused about what to do.

Dr. Christopher Cannon of Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston needed advice for his mother. Her H.D.L. was above 100, which is very high, but her L.D.L. was 160, also high. Last year, he called Dr. Rader, who said that because Dr. Cannon's mother's only risk factor for heart disease was her L.D.L., he did not advise treatment.

But now, new studies, including one reported last week by Dr. Cannon and his colleagues, are indicating that people might do much better with much lower levels of L.D.L. He looked over his own data and said it showed people with high H.D.L. levels got the same benefit from driving their L.D.L. very low as people whose H.D.L. was low or normal. So, he says, he will be calling Dr. Rader again. "It's time for a reassessment," he said.
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