Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low Carb Health & Technical Forums > Cholesterol, Heart Disease
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jul-10-14, 06:48
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,433
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default Growing Doubt on Statin Drugs, and they cause Weight Gain?!

Just received Medscape (must register but anyone can and its free) with a large special report reviewing the benefits (or lack thereof!) of all the tax $$ spent on the Women's Health Inititive. Noticed on Cardiology page that this article is currently the most popular with many comments.

Growing Doubt on Statin Drugs:The Problem of Drug-Lifestyle Interaction
John Mandrola July 02, 2014


Quote:
My mind is changing about statins. I'm growing increasingly worried about the irrational exuberance over these drugs, especially when used for prevention of heart disease that is yet to happen.

An elderly patient called my office last week to tell me thank you . . . not for a successful procedure or surgery, but rather for helping with a problem that had dogged her for a decade. How did an electrophysiologist help a patient without doing a procedure?

I stopped her statin.

A few weeks later, the patient said, her muscle and joint pain were gone. "I thought it was arthritis. I'm walking now. I haven't felt this good in years. I've even lost five pounds."

So why was this elderly patient on a statin?

It was being used to lower cholesterol in the hopes that it would lower the risk of a future heart attack or stroke. This is called primary prevention. The patient had no vascular disease but had a high cholesterol level.

The problem, of course, is that statins have not been well-studied in elderly women. Her doctor and the medical establishment writ large have extrapolated findings of clinical trials on younger, mostly male, patients to all patients with high cholesterol levels. This is a striking jump to make, given that low cholesterol levels in the elderly are associated with higher death rates.

Anecdotes are not evidence, but this one moved me to review some of the statin evidence. And to think (again) about treating people vs disease.

As always, let's start with the truth — absolute, not relative values. Then I will move on to some new revelations about statins, and then an interesting theory of why potent cholesterol-lowering drugs have such painfully small effects on overall cardiovascular outcomes.

The Truths

When statins are used in low-risk patients without heart disease (primary prevention) there is no mortality benefit. That's right. Your chances of dying are the same on or off the drug, regardless of how much the statin lowers the cholesterol level.

When statins are used for primary prevention, there is a small lowering of future vascular events (stroke/heart attack) over five to 10 years. The absolute risk reduction is in the range of seven per 1000. That means you have to treat 140 patients with a statin (for five years) to prevent one event. Or this: for 99.3% of statin-treated patients, there is no benefit. I like to call this the PSR, or percent same result.

There is also general agreement that statins increase the risk of developing diabetes, especially in women, and that risk is about the same as preventing a stroke or heart attack, approximately 1%.

Another fact is that patient-level (raw) data from the industry-sponsored cholesterol trials have not been independently analyzed. Systematic reviews from the Cochrane group have analyzed only published data rather than the raw data. There is likely a difference [1].

There is great debate about the incidence of statin side effects, such as muscle pain, cognitive issues, decreased energy, sexual problems, and kidney and liver injury, among others. In the industry-sponsored randomized controlled clinical trials, discontinuation of statins was not significantly different from placebo. Observational data and the observations of any clinician provide a different picture[2].

No statin drug has ever been compared with lifestyle interventions for the prevention of cardiovascular disease.

New Revelations

A study presented in April 2014 at the Society of General Internal Medicine meeting in San Diego showed that individuals prescribed statin therapy for high cholesterol consumed more calories and more fat than nonstatin users. And, not surprisingly, this increase in calories paralleled an increase in BMI in statin users.

An analysis of a prospective cohort study of men (published in JAMA Internal Medicine) revealed that physical-activity levels were "modestly" lower among statin users compared with nonusers independent of other cardiac medications and of medical history.

Possible Connecting Theory: Drug-Lifestyle Interaction

These two recent studies are troublesome. As pointed out in the excellent coverage from heartwire journalist Michael O'Riordan, there may be an interaction between medication and lifestyle. Namely, if statin users consume more calories, gain weight, and exercise less, it becomes easy to see why cardiovascular benefits are so small.

It's been really hard to explain why the striking reductions in LDL cholesterol—up to 30% to 50%—from statins haven't translated into significant future benefit.

One possibility is that cholesterol levels are a lousy surrogate for outcomes. That surely seems true in the elderly, but what about in younger patients and those with familial high cholesterol? These patients are definitely at increased cardiovascular risk. So cholesterol levels are surely not unimportant. There are convincing data, for instance, that higher HDL levels are associated with lower CV risk.

Another possibility for lack of statin benefit is analogous to AF rhythm control and high blood-pressure issues. As in, yes, it's better to be in regular sinus rhythm and have normal blood pressure, but getting to those goals with pills isn't the same as being there naturally. With rhythm-control and blood-pressure drugs, the achievement of the desired outcome is muted by side effects from the drugs. Perhaps it's the same with statin drugs?

You don't have to posit malfeasance on the part of big pharma here. All you have to do is think past the disease-specific mind-set of modern-day medicine. We are much more than our cholesterol level. A statin drug, like so many drugs that block enzyme pathways far upstream in major cellular pathways, is going to have much more biologic action than just moving an easily measured cholesterol level.

When you step back and look at medications as chemical modifiers of cellular processes in complex biologic systems like our body, it's easy to understand that health comes not from pills. Not even statins.

JMM

References

Wieseler B, Wolfram N, McGauran N, et al. Completeness of reporting of patient-relevant clinical trial outcomes: Comparison of unpublished clinical study reports with publicly available data. PLOS Med 2013; DOI:10.1371/journal.pmed.1001526. Abstract

Zhang H, Plutzky J, Skentzos S, et al. Discontinuation of statins in routine care settings: A cohort study. Ann Intern Med 2013; 158:526-534. Abstract


© 2014 WebMD, LLC


Cite this article: Growing Doubt on Statin Drugs: The Problem of Drug-Lifestyle Interaction. Medscape. Jul 02, 2014.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Thu, Jul-10-14, 08:07
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,863
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Not surprising since they also cause diabetes.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Thu, Jul-10-14, 10:56
Ilikemice's Avatar
Ilikemice Ilikemice is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 730
 
Plan: Paleo-ish general LC
Stats: 151/119/118 Female 64 in
BF:
Progress: 97%
Location: Middle Tennessee
Default

Oh I saw this too. Medscape is a great window into the thinking of doctors on the street, so to speak. Thanks for posting it. Just today, my SO said his own doctor suggested the muscle pains he's been experiencing might be the statin. (Although they were sudden, so I think it's an infection he has). My SO has even said he'd like to get off of it.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jul-10-14, 16:54
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,433
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

Suppose not surprising, but of all the articles about all the side effects by the all the statin opponents I have read, have not seen weight gain mentioned before. Isn't that just what people at supposed risk of CVD need? Let's add a few extra pounds for their aching joints and muscles to carry.

Seems since ACC changed the guidelines rather drastically, more doctors are finally thinking, hold on here, what does this drug really do? First they told us it was to reduce LDL; now it's not that, but something broader. Opened their minds to more articles like this one.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Mon, Jul-14-14, 09:52
RobLL RobLL is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,648
 
Plan: generalized low carb
Stats: 205/180/185 Male 67
BF:31%/14?%/12%
Progress: 125%
Location: Pacific Northwest
Default

This Medscape article in nicely written. So many anti-statin articles are so overwrought one cannot take them to one's doctor. This one could help initiate a good discussion with a primary care person.

I don't think there is any doubt that lowering blood pressures over 150/100 has been good. And especially for those significantly over that. My favorite PA long ago advised me that the call for diabetics to be below 120/80 was likely pernicious. Too many side effects to that.

Oddly doctors are fond of asserting that blood glucose levels of 180 are OK, and that we should aim for A1Cs at or over 6.5. These seem far too high to me and ophthalmologists.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Mon, Jul-14-14, 10:11
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,433
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

Here's the original post if anyone wants to forward it to doctors.

http://www.drjohnm.org/2014/06/grow...le-interaction/
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Tue, Jul-29-14, 18:05
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,433
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

The evidence continues to mount against statins. New Mark Sisson round-up of recent studies on statin side effects...including cancer!

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-.../#axzz38r5G7vsZ
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:26.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.