Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 12:39
SabreCat50 SabreCat50 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 144
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 220/188/170 Male 6 ft 1 in
BF:
Progress: 64%
Location: Oakland, Florida, USA
Default NYT: High Fat Diets and prostate cancer?

As an older male, the possible connection of a high fat diet to prostate cancer is a concern:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/...ate-cancer.html
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 14:27
nawchem's Avatar
nawchem nawchem is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,230
 
Plan: No gluten, CAD
Stats: 163.5/161.0/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/27.7/27.3
Progress: 17%
Default

IMO when a reseacher uses terms such as may or suggests, it means they don't know. I work in biotech plenty of successful mouse studies don't pan out in humans. That's why biotech is a high-risk investment. I wouldn't sweat it, there are human genetic markers that would be a better predictor than a mouse study.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 15:11
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,416
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
Default

There have been many men on the forum whose PSA levels dropped once they went low carb.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 15:49
Zei Zei is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,299
 
Plan: Carb reduction in general
Stats: 230/213/180 Female 5 ft 9 in
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: Texas
Default

Yes, mice are very different from people. Also even if the results do turn out to be true of humans, a high carbohydrate diet drives the conversion of unneeded glucose into triglyceride, i.e. high blood fats. Whereas a high fat low carbohydrate diet often leads to reduced circulating triglyceride levels in the blood. So if I were a man and the results were found true of humans I think I would still stick with a high fat low carbohydrate diet.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 15:55
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,242
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Here's the key part of the article for me:

Quote:
High-sugar diets also cause obesity. Are the prostate tumors in men who became fat by eating high-sugar diets equally susceptible to metastasis? If they are, what is the mechanism?

“You cannot just say, ‘Don’t eat fat,’” Dr. Pandolfi said.

Mice having eaten a high-fat western diet doesn't explain much in terms of what could be a triggering ingredient. High-fat western diet likely has sugar as well. This is why we can't jump to conclusions, as 1) it's mice, and 2) while the diet contained fat, it also contained other potentially harmful substances. Same story, though, when fat is present among other things, fat typically gets the blame.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 19:43
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,273
 
Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/175/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 100%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

Even if I was a mouse, I
would not let this study worry me.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 19:56
Zei Zei is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,299
 
Plan: Carb reduction in general
Stats: 230/213/180 Female 5 ft 9 in
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: Texas
Default

Another thing about mouse studies is that the natural diet they're adapted to eat is not high in fat. High fat diets of the type many of us on this forum have improved our health on might sicken a mouse. So it's something to consider in interpreting high fat mouse studies, in whether negative effects will also apply to higher fat tolerating humans or not. Not meant as criticism of the present study or rodent studies in general. Researchers have to start somewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 23:19
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,407
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Gina Kolata. Nuf said about that.

For cancer, we could look at the work of Feinman for example, where patients with cancer saw regression of tumors when they ate a ketogenic diet. This is a human experiment. It trumps mice and petri dish experiments.

https://feinmantheother.com/

Follow the link above, check the posts "Ketogenic Diets for Cancer". Link to discussion on the experiment (with link to Feinman's blog post about it in the first post) : http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=447278

Bear in mind this is a therapeutic experiment, not a preventive experiment. But it's easy to extrapolate and conclude that the same diet used as therapy here can be expected to prevent as well. Rather, it's absurd to conclude that the same diet used as therapy was also used to cause the disease, see?
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 23:33
LC FP LC FP is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,148
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 228/195/188 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 83%
Location: Erie PA
Default

Gina Kolata wrote the story. She's a big low-fat advocate and I wouldn't trust her spin.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 08:52
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
Lipivore
Posts: 1,202
 
Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Florida
Default

Gina Kolata is good for one thing: getting the Piña Colada song stuck in your head!
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 11:58
LC FP LC FP is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,148
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 228/195/188 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 83%
Location: Erie PA
Default

Thanks a lot Rawnut. Now I'm doomed.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 12:43
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,945
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/183/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 54%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreCat50
As an older male, the possible connection of a high fat diet to prostate cancer is a concern:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/...ate-cancer.html


I have read the opposite that low-carb/(sugar), high fat diet starves cancer.
This article is also promoting a certain drug.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 15:25
Meetow Kim Meetow Kim is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 148
 
Plan: Atkins Concept
Stats: 225/190/175 Male 70.5"
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Central Virginia
Default

Life causes cancer.

Isn't prostate cancer usually so slow growing that when found in older men they just leave it? They are likely going to die of something else long before they die of the prostate cancer. Sure there are men who get it younger and more aggressive, but aren't those anomalies compared to older men who a high percentage die WITH prostate cancer, rather than die OF it?

Direct correlation on stuff like this is hard to define. I'm no expert by a long shot, but I have people in my extended family who have had lung cancer for instance and never smoked in their lives. I seem to remember during an American Indian museum tour...I think it was in Little Rock, where I learned that American Indians had cases of cancer long before white man arrived. Sure, the smoke in the teepees may have caused it, but maybe some of us just get cancer. A mutation that simply occurs and there is nothing you did to cause it...and it follows genetic lines.

Western culture has fallen in to the trap of believing whatever the latest "study" seems to reveal. We were told eggs were killing us at one point...weren't we? I think I would believe a millennia old Chinese fact and remedy before modern Western ones. There is too much money to corrupt stuff...and a LOT of that money is in medicine, treatment, and therapy...and diets!

I've said most of my life "Eat well, stay fit and get hit by a bus anyway". We are all born to die and we cant always control when we punch out. If we live our lives in fear of death and take few risks, preferring to be cautious about everything...that's not really living in the philosophical sense, that's just attempting to prolong life and waiting to die.

I'd rather live to 70 enjoying things and having the excitement that comes with risk, than live to 100 being careful and listening to the clock tick on the wall.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 15:52
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,407
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

It just occurred to me. What did they use to cause cancer in the first place? Remember Collin Campbell's mice experiment with casein and cancer? He used aflatoxin to cause cancer. Evcen though he used mice, even though use used aflatoxin, even though he used casein, he declared meat caused cancer in humans. It's the same thing here, even though they used mice, even though they obviously used something other than fat to cause cancer, and even though they likely used some hydrogenated veggy oil, they imply (or at least that's what we are lead to believe) that animal fat causes cancer in humans.

Consider Feinman's work again. He used a ketogenic diet to shrink tumors. Doesn't tell us what caused cancer in the first place, but it certainly suggests that, a) fat does not cause it, and b) carbs likely allow or cause continued growth (after initial cause, which may or may not still be present).

Then we gotta ask, what is the thing that allows or causes growth? Is it fuel? Maybe. It's useful to look at other examples of growth. Child's growth - growth hormone. Fat tissue growth - insulin. Breast growth - estrogen and prolactin. Muscle growth - testosterone (it's more complicated than that, but it illustrates the point). Then we got growth distribution like the differences between men and women - primarily sex hormones testosterone and estrogen. Does fuel enter the equation at any point? Yes, but only insofar as we restrict fuel will it affect growth, even then there's still gonna be growth but at the expense of other tissues, i.e. fat tissue grows but we get tired and other tissues shrink, etc.

Feinman thinks it's all about the insulin. I agree. Cancer cells apparently have 10x the number of insulin receptors. I wonder why. I wonder why a ketogenic diet shrinks tumors, but not really, it's obvious - there's much less insulin cuz there's no carbs to stimulate it. Nevermind the fuel, cancer cells would get it anyway if there was ample insulin, but there isn't. Imagine a sort of diabetic type 1 cancer. Tons of glucose, but zero insulin. I wonder if there'd be any growth.

To summarize.

Cancer is initially caused by something that can be different than the growth agent. Cancer grows according to hormonal signaling. Fat (i.e. animal fat) does not cause cancer in humans, nor does it cause cancer to grow in humans.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Fri, Jan-19-18, 01:15
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,416
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
Default

They are not above lying.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:28.


Copyright © 2000-2018 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.