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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jul-13-17, 19:10
collectabl collectabl is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: atkins induction phase 1
Stats: 266/237.2/199 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 43%
Default exogenous ketone? Coconut oil?

I have been doing lots of research on the Keto eating style and many of the articles mention exogenous ketones. They make it sound like if you add these to your keto eating style no matter what you eat carb wise it will keep you in ketosis. Sounds go me like the unrealistic diet pill, too good to be true. But many of them talk about how they contain coconut oil and that is the key ingredient. I do notice when I add coconut oil to my foods ( I add it to my deviled eggs, protein shakes,and hot cocoa) that my keto sticks turn a darker purple, but I am also watching my carbs. Any thoughts or insights?
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Jul-13-17, 21:24
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,801
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Default

Ketones are a second source of "at the ready" energy in addition to blood sugar. Exogenous ketones are a way to increase the immediately available energy without burning dietary or stored fat.

For a fat adapted person ketones can get very high during exercise or late in the day. For a person eating a high carb diet they increase a bit with exercise.

it will keep you in ketosis
If you mean by "in ketosis" having blood that tests greater than 0.2 ketones, then yes it will. You would see the same thing as if you injected yourself with ketones. The analogy is alcohol (ethanol). If you drink it or inject it, you will get drunk.

contain coconut oil
Coconut oil is a medium chain triglyceride and is faster to break down (because it's shorter) to a ketone than a longer chain triglyceride such as bacon fat or human fat.

Is there a reason you are specifically trying to get your ketones up?
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 03:36
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,402
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Exogenous Ketones = Snake Oil. Especially that sleezy Keto OS multi-level marketing scheme. There may be a value for medical therapies, like epilepsy, nothing to do with weight loss.
Please read this article too on myths about the Keto lifestyle:
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/1...diet-myths.html
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 05:49
VLC.MD VLC.MD is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 220
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 209/185/185 Male 69
BF:reducing
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by collectabl
I have been doing lots of research on the Keto eating style and many of the articles mention exogenous ketones. They make it sound like if you add these to your keto eating style no matter what you eat carb wise it will keep you in ketosis. Sounds go me like the unrealistic diet pill, too good to be true. But many of them talk about how they contain coconut oil and that is the key ingredient. I do notice when I add coconut oil to my foods ( I add it to my deviled eggs, protein shakes,and hot cocoa) that my keto sticks turn a darker purple, but I am also watching my carbs. Any thoughts or insights?


No matter what you eat carb wise it will keep you in ketosis.
No matter what you eat carb wise it will keep you in ketosis.

Uh, No !

Carbs will kick you out of ketosis.
Quickly.
By increasing your insulin.

But your ketostix will still be purple because you are getting ketones exogenously (as opposed to via metabolizing fat - they way you want to get your ketostix purple).

What will happen in this plan is your ketostix will be purple and you'll gain weight (certainly wont lose). You won't burn your fat stores because the insulin gets your carbs up.

Ketosis isn't purple Ketostix. It's metabolizing fat.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 08:29
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,801
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Default

VLC.MD - Unfortunately, ketosis has been objectively defined as blood ketones >0.2 millimolar. If blood ketones are >0.2millimolar then you are in ketosis. It is a very clear definition and very limited. The definition is only about what is in the blood. The definition has no relation to what is happening to the fat cell or what the liver is doing.

P&V have been, at best, imprecise in their description of dietary ketosis. Jimmy Moore has driven a ice cream truck through it. I wish JM would just come out and say, "I don't know what I'm talking about. Sorry."

I think the general and very common misunderstanding of ketosis is a great example of the failure of explanation by analogy. We have analogies built upon analogies with very little data, if any. Somewhere in that rant of mine mix in a lament about "the memorization of terms is not knowledge" and that's about where I am in my frustration.

collectabl - Not only do you and I lack an "e" on the end of our user name but it looks like you are following a similar frustration I went through when I tried to figure it out so that I could affect it in some way. I apologize if this comes across as too abrupt.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 08:31
collectabl collectabl is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: atkins induction phase 1
Stats: 266/237.2/199 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 43%
Default

Thanks for all of the feedback, I am doing well down 31 pds and 27 inches since April 20th. I am happy with the ketosis state I am in, I just wondered if the coconut oil helped anyone else. and I kept seeing mention of the exogenous keotones, so I just wondered if anyone else knew more about them. I feel better not eating all that junk food. I make sure my carbs are veges and fruits and greek yogurts. I guess wanting all the answers and questioning everything is just my style.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 09:25
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,219
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

For people who need a more rigorous ketogenic diet, like Janet mentioned, exogenous ketones and mct's can probably be valuable. If somebody needs to eat a 90 percent fat diet for instance, even just being able to back down to 85 percent fat would increase the protein/veggie content of their diet by 50 percent, that's potentially a major increase in a broad array of micronutrients, as well.

I actually think it's currently an open question as to whether exogenous ketones might benefit even some people whose only complaint is wanting to lose a little weight, the human studies just haven't been done. Eating ketogenically protects me against binge behaviour. I don't know that it's the ketones, for all I know it could be an effect of eating so much fat, rather than the ketones, I actually am curious about whether eating a more standard Atkins type diet with a bit more protein would act like the ketogenic diet for me if I added in mct oil or exogenous ketones.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 09:53
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 1,842
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

I, too, find many benefits by being ketogenic in my WOE. Am I 100% in ketosis (levels at or above 0.5mml)? No, and I don't sweat it. The objective for me is to stay in or close to burning fat as my primary fuel. Should I lapse into burning glucose due to some higher carb intake, I know I'm close enough to get back into fat primary very quickly. Yes, agree with many observations that there have been many discussions about ketosis, and I far prefer endogenous ketones for what I'm trying to accomplish, which is fat burning as my primary fuel. Adding exogenous ketones, as correctly pointed out, will simply substitute an outside fuel rather than my onboard body fat. I always want my body fat to be the primary source for my metabolic fuel.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 11:50
VLC.MD VLC.MD is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 220
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 209/185/185 Male 69
BF:reducing
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
VLC.MD - Unfortunately, ketosis has been objectively defined as blood ketones >0.2 millimolar. If blood ketones are >0.2millimolar then you are in ketosis. It is a very clear definition and very limited. The definition is only about what is in the blood. The definition has no relation to what is happening to the fat cell or what the liver is doing.


That definition should only apply to people not eating ketones.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 11:54
VLC.MD VLC.MD is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 220
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 209/185/185 Male 69
BF:reducing
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

This thread isnt about exogenous ketones and their pluses and minuses.

The OP talks about exogenous ketones allowing people to eat high carb and still lose weight. Like insulin doesnt exist if you eat ketones.

I just dont think that makes any sense.
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 12:41
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,219
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

I'd say the burden of proof is on anybody who claims that exogenous ketones would still work for weightloss on an otherwise high carbohydrate diet--I don't think I could say definitively that they wouldn't be helpful, though, there are suggestions that it might be helpful from rodent studies, but I don't know that it's been looked at in humans yet. I'm not saying everybody should run out and buy exogenous ketones, I'm just saying that without more experiments it's really unknown what the proper range of using exogenous ketones therapeutically actually is.
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 13:10
VLC.MD VLC.MD is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 220
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 209/185/185 Male 69
BF:reducing
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

Insulin has more impact on the body than exogenous ketones.

So I'll say that exogenous ketones + high carb will not result in good weight loss. IMO.

The foundation of Ketogenic diets is insulin. Ignoring the foundation will give you the leaning tower of Piza.
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 13:14
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,087
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/185.9/000 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 46%
Default

Don't you mean the leaning tower of Pizza?
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 13:30
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,219
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

But if exogenous ketones reduced appetite for carbohydrate, for instance, that would likely decrease insulin. Insulin is King, but lots of people have the King's ear...

Don't get me wrong, we know that ketones in the context of a ketogenic diet are safe and probably cause some of the benefits, in the high carb context, we don't know, and when we don't know, there's a risk. For any individual wanting to benefit from ketosis, the natural way of getting there is the safest and surest way to get benefit. But there's also a risk of writing off benefits there might be to exogenous ketones for people who just won't go on a ketogenic diet in the first place, without doing the experiments. Don't get me wrong, I think most people spending money on ketones these days are likely wasting their money.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Jul-14-17, 14:14
VLC.MD VLC.MD is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 220
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 209/185/185 Male 69
BF:reducing
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
Don't you mean the leaning tower of Pizza?

Winner.
LOL.
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