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  #46   ^
Old Mon, Dec-18-17, 05:11
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 3,928
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Gilbert Welch in his books about over treatment highlights the treatment of high blood pressure as a serious over treatment concern where the closer a person's blood pressure is to the "target" level the more likely it is that the benefit of the medication will be far out weighed by the harm done by the side effects.

Jean
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  #47   ^
Old Mon, Dec-18-17, 12:30
mojolissa's Avatar
mojolissa mojolissa is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 1,892
 
Plan: semi lc- OMAD w/IF
Stats: 225/209/199 Female 66.5"
BF:workin on it
Progress: 62%
Location: Michigan
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You guys are scaring me! But really, my husband was just put on BP pills. He is the conventional eating, thinking, western medicine, trust my doctor completely type.
The comment that Ken made is true!
He gets up to pee like three times a night! That can't be good for him. Never did that before the meds. His BP has been higher the last couple of years. Average 140/100. The only change has been the allergy shots that he takes every week. They all claim that those shots shouldn't make any difference in his BP, but I smell a rat. More money, more money....
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  #48   ^
Old Mon, Dec-18-17, 13:59
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,072
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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140/100 is borderline as to needing treatment with medication. Did your husband try lifestyle changes first? Also be sure those readings were taken properly. This is a good overview of BP and treatments. https://www.dietdoctor.com/blood-pressure
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  #49   ^
Old Tue, Dec-19-17, 07:01
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 2,156
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Good updated BP summary from DietDoctor. Lifestyle changes work very well, and I'm an example of that. With the new guidelines and an annual appointment coming up in the second week in January, I'm anticipating a conversation about BP medication. This is the same GP who wanted to put me on statins because I have (sarcasm) cholesterol and was over 65. Erring on the side of caution is still an error due to the negative impact of BP meds as we age on those who are mildly higher than the previously recommended standards. I will not back track, because I know all my health markers are very good. My GP is my age, and he likes to quote the relative heart risk calculations as gospel. I like him, but I won't follow his recommendations if I have better information taking into account the whole picture of my health status. No, I don't know more than a doctor in many areas; however, in nutrition and lifestyle, I feel I have a knowledge advantage. I manage the relationship with my GP as a partnership and seriously consider any recommendations to test whether they merit consideration on my part. Some do, some don't, no harm, no foul.
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  #50   ^
Old Tue, Dec-19-17, 07:37
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,369
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
No, I don't know more than a doctor in many areas; however, in nutrition and lifestyle, I feel I have a knowledge advantage. I manage the relationship with my GP as a partnership and seriously consider any recommendations to test whether they merit consideration on my part. Some do, some don't, no harm, no foul.



Exactly where I am at. Hey, if I fall into a combine, I will absolutely want medical assistance. They have proven themselves good at that.

Nutrition and chronic illness? NOT such a good track record.
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  #51   ^
Old Fri, Jan-26-18, 02:05
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,072
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Tom Naughton writes an overview of the changes in BP guidelines, supplements/medications, low salt diets and lifestyle changes, including LC diets going back to Will Yancy's study at Duke, and other reviews of the literature on sodium reduction benefits (or lack thereof)

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index....rugs-and-diets/
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  #52   ^
Old Fri, Jan-26-18, 19:35
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,271
 
Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/175/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 100%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
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About 18 years ago, my blood pressure was slowing increasing. When it hit 140/90 I went to my physician who gave me a statin and put me on a low-fat diet. My blood pressure didn't change, but my weight crept up and my food lost all taste and I was on a drug for pre-diabetes as my blood glucose was now high.

After about 3 years my physician switched me to a low-carb diet and my weight went down, my cholesterol improved, my blood pressure dropped and I went off the drugs.

I'm now 50 pounds lighter, blood glucose is good, blood pressure is 115/65, my food tastes great and I have more energy. Last year I managed to bicycle over 10,000 miles. Not bad for a 71-year-old.
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  #53   ^
Old Fri, Jan-26-18, 23:03
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,378
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Janet, I've been thinking about what Tom wrote, specifically the insulin thing. At first, it makes no sense, insulin doesn't regulate BP, it regulates fuel systems, protein metabolism, etc. Then we gotta understand what BP actually is, what kind of pump the heart actually is, and the fact that the heart simply cannot push blood through the smaller vessels cuz its pressure output is just too low (several orders of magnitude too low in fact), and we gotta look at some obscure yet quite recent experimental research on water.

Two kinds of pumps. Pressure pumps, flow pumps. Pressure pumps typically have low flow. For example a hydrolic pump for machinery. Very high pressure but low flow so that the pistons move slowly when charged, but produce high force to move very heavy things. In my computer, I have water cooling, there's a flow pump with low pressure (centrifugal design), but high flow. Same with air pumps where there's pressure pumps (piston design) for air tools like in a garage, and flow pumps (simply called fans) for air cooling a computer for example.

Blood pressure is technically what's called back pressure, i.e. the pressure resulting from resistance. The higher the resistance, the higher the back pressure, we can measure this at the arm, where blood vessels and arteries are much larger than where the resistance is down the line. The higher the back pressure, in a flow pump system, the lower the flow. Since the heart's mode of action is akin to a reciprocating pump (with a one-way valve, like some aquarium pumps for example), the back pressure manifests as pulses rather than continuous. This means the heart is a flow pump, not a pressure pump.

Resistance comes primarily from smaller blood vessels, which the heart's pressure output simply cannot overcome, and secondarily from what's called hydrolic or viscosity resistance due to the size of the arteries, i.e the smaller the arteries the higher the resistance. If vessels are constricted (become smaller) or somehow restricted (blocked by some obstruction), back pressure rises.

So the question is how would insulin either constrict or restrict the smaller blood vessels so that back pressure rises?

We know about vessel constriction due to stress hormones like epinephrine and cortisol for example. Does insulin have an effect like this, or on those hormones? Maybe. We know about obstructions like atherosclerotic plaque and the likely causal role of insulin here, but the time scale is too short to blame this, we're talking days and months here not years and decades.

Now for the water stuff. Here's a link to a lecture by the guy who figured out a fourth state of water: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPvYxDDpAgo (check part 2 as well) This explain how, even though the heart simply cannot push blood through the smaller blood vessels, blood nevertheless gets pushed through anyways. It's the blood vessels themselves, and the water contained within the blood, that form a very effective pressure pump but with very low flow evidently. It's so effective it can push red blood cells through even though they're bigger than the vessels. The cells get squished literally.

So this means two things. Either red blood cells get bigger and can no longer fit even if squished, or become less flexible, or both. We got HbA1c, where red blood cells actually get bigger because they're now stuck to a glucose molecule (or more than one). It's also likely that they become less flexible as well. If we watched the above video carefully, we'll note that the mechanism involves a hydrofilic surface, i.e. water sticks to it, and accumulates and gets thicker. The lining of blood vessels aren't the only place where this occurs (the basis for the pumping action), it also occurs with blood content like glucose molecules for example. In effect, the molecules become larger due to accumulation of that gel-like water around it. In effect, the more glucose goes in the blood, the more viscous the blood becomes, the harder it gets to push it through smaller blood vessels, the higher the back pressure.

So, it's also about glucose, not just insulin. In one of the comments, Tom repeated that they controlled for blood glucose level to find the link with insulin, implying that glucose does not play a role, when in all likelihood it does as illustrated by the above.

It's also likely that due to the action of insulin on fatty acids probably through the enzyme lipoprotein lipase or some such - the formation of triglycerides right in the blood, and triglycerides are bigger than fatty acids - this also contributes to obstructing the smaller blood vessels.

Finally, if I use my paradigm to explain the ways where insulin is involved with dietary carbs, the liver, insulin-degrading enzyme, hyperinsulinemia, hyperglycemia, and so forth, we can deduce that insulin will be much higher than blood glucose level should warrant. The reason is that there's much more glucose being kept from spilling out, in storage in the liver in the form of glycogen, and little ketones to activate insulin receptors and in turn insulin-degrading enzyme to degrade insulin and cause insulin to drop. Excess glucose - i.e. excess glycogen in the liver - must first be cleared before insulin even begins to drop.

So, plausible, yay or nay? To me, yay.

Personally, I remember having BP in the 120/80 range before I went LC. Then it dropped in the 90/60 range when I was full-on all-meat. Then it rose in the 120/80 range when I first got sick, and remains in this range still. My personal experience says what Tom wrote about the insulin link with BP must be real and must indicate a causal role, and that dietary carbs ain't the only thing that can do that to insulin and in turn to BP. And my personal experience with docs trying to figure out why I've been sick says these docs have no clue about any of it. Therefore, it's my opinion that none of them can make any determination about BP for any purpose whatsoever, let alone write official recommendations about it.

Last edited by M Levac : Fri, Jan-26-18 at 23:16.
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  #54   ^
Old Sat, Jan-27-18, 03:23
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,369
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Tom Naughton is always a fun read.
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  #55   ^
Old Mon, Jan-29-18, 12:54
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,334
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/157.2/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Ontario
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One of my old friends wound up in critical care yesterday with 5 percent kidney function after being put on a new blood pressure medication. Something similar happened to my aunt some years ago--that was actually when low carb stuck for me, my blood pressure had been creeping up, that's pretty much universal on my Dad's side of the family. My aunt's kidneys are fine now, my friend seems to be doing okay, hopefully he'll have as good a result. Sort of hammers home the problem with unnecessary treatment.
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  #56   ^
Old Mon, Jan-29-18, 13:22
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,811
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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Is it insulin that raises BP or excess carbs that raise insulin levels and also BP? On vLCHF my BP is normal, but will shoot up if I eat a lot of carbs, which cause me to retain water, in tissues & blood, and higher blood volume would raise BP.
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  #57   ^
Old Mon, Jan-29-18, 13:28
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,138
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Tom Naughton is always a fun read.
Yup, I just read his post this morning and loved it as always, and also immediately placed my order for The Salt Fix. I could have gotten it immediately on the Kindle, but I reserve the Kindle for novels which you tend to read start to finish, which works well with a Kindle. For reference books where you often jump around and go back and forth to check various facts I prefer hardcopy, so have to wait until Wednesday.
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  #58   ^
Old Mon, Jan-29-18, 16:49
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,369
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
My aunt's kidneys are fine now, my friend seems to be doing okay, hopefully he'll have as good a result. Sort of hammers home the problem with unnecessary treatment.


Gosh yes. Hope hes okay.
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  #59   ^
Old Sun, Feb-04-18, 10:12
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 2,156
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Finally had my annual checkup on Thursday with my GP. I was fully prepared to hear about the new BP guidelines, but apparently, my GP is not strictly following them. Due to the early morning hour of the appointment, he was the one who measured my BP, and it read 136/73. I usually get higher readings at the doctor's office. He was pleased. After discussing general history, he recommended a blood lipid test. I indicated to him that if it were to be a simple blood cholesterol test with estimated LDL, I was not interested. Rather, I wanted a full NMR Lipid panel, as I told him that I believe that cholesterol is not a valid health marker. He told me he felt it was a waste of money, but wrote the order. I left it at that, as I feel a simple cholesterol test is a waste of money and time as well.

As for the BP, I was relieved not to have the discussion regarding the new guidelines.
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