Thanks Hornbrau, So would my 1/2 orange be good with a piece of cheese or meat or a protein shake/drink after my workout? I try not to eat cheese. I try and limit my carbs to veggies and fruit......my protein comes from meat and eggs...I usually have an egg and a piece of bacon before my workout.....I am being careful not to eat much more since starting to exercise...just to space it out different, other than adding maybe 10-15 extra carbs in the form of fruit......

Can anyone recommend protein drink/ shakes...I don't know anything about them........

I have experimented with carbs and heavy training a LOT. For me, I do my cardio on an empty stomach in the morning. 24 mins of HIIT. I eat 20 mins afterwards, usually a combo of protein and carbs. If I am doing lower carb, it's cottage cheese and berries (ECC 25 ish). For higher carb, it's old fashoined oats or barley and a protein shake (ECC 50 ish).

When I do higher carb, I am careful to use low glycemic carbs, and I do about 150-200 g per day. At this level, my lifting is good and my cardio is great. I build muscle well, and I still lose fat. The scale doesn't move with much drama, though, as the muscle seems to go on at about the same rate as the fat comes off.

When I do lower carb, I do 40-50 ECC per day, with most of my carbs in my post-cardio meal (the berries). The rest of the carbs come from veggies, and some LC, high fiber bread or tortillas. My cardio suffers noticeably when I do not have a full glycogen load, which is consistent with low-carbing. When I am on a low-carb cycle, I spike my carbs just before my lifting with about 20-25 g of dextrose, or about 3-4 rolls of Smarties. I eat 1.5-2 rolls 15 mins before my workout, and have the rest with a protein shake right after. My lifting on this regimen is *awesome*. I have tons of energy and can lift big. (The two stacks I maxed were both on dextrose.) The scale drops more dramatically, but I do not seem to build muscle as quickly.

If your carbs are working for you, great, use them - but here's a tweaky bit of info...

Dextrose is preferentially absorbed and used by the muscles. Fructose (the orange) likes to hang out in the liver and can interfere with ketosis. Complex carbs (oatmeal, bagel) are absorbed more slowly, so the energy takes longer to hit. If you are training hard, the amount in one orange probably isn't enough to matter, and of course, oranges are great for vitamins and minerals, too.

Another tip about trainers - most of them will be down on Atkins. A few will know about the cutting regimen many body builders use called CKD, or cyclical ketogenic diet which happens to recommend 20 g of carbs 6 days out of 7. Some trainers will even be down on Atkins, but pro-CKD, lol.

Anyhow, it really is about finding what works for you. Good luck and happy training.

Cheers,

Friday

Whey protein is the best (don't do the soy thing) and is available at many health food or online stores, as well as some supermarkets. It comes plain or flavored, choc, straw, and van. Some of the flavored ones have significant carbs added allready so be carefull. Also one serving is usually around 26g of protein, but unless your trying to build muscle mass that much is not needed, I would say a half a serving would be plenty. I've heard that COSTCO has it at a reasonable price but I don't have one of those near my house, and I keep forgeting to check my SAMS when I'm there. The protien shake is a better alternative because the protein is able to be absorbed quicker than a piece of meat that needs to be broken down through digestion.

Thanks Friday and Hornbrau! appreciate all this info!!!

Friday....a few people have mentioned the "smarties" and I really don't understand how candy coated chocolate could be good for us...you mention rolls but here in Canada they come in boxes?

Hornbrau...thanks for info on protein shakes...I will check into it.....

Ahh, in Canada, Smarties are called Rockets. They are rolls of pressed powder candy disks about as long as your finger. They are pure dextrose, and about 7 g of carbs per roll. Sweet Tarts are the same stuff, but that many sweet tarts will give you canker sores, lol.

I get the Advantage Carb Control shakes by EAS when I want something very portable, 15 g protein, 1-3 g of fat, 1g effective carbs. If I am going to have carbs, I want to choose them myself, so I use LC protein mixes and shakes. For powder, I use Designer Whey and I buy it online. I think I paid $20 american for 5 lbs which lasts me 2 months or so of heavy use, more for infrequent use. They also have smaller sizes.

I would have a protein shake, even the Atkins variety, with your half an orange. Cheese (fat) will significantly delay the absorption of the protein, and the whole point of that post-workout carb-protein mix is to get the stuff to your muscles ASAP. Ther protein feeds the muscles and the carbs blunt your cortisol response.

Cheers,

Friday

Hiya Friday,
Aahh......Rockets...OK....that makes a bit more sense than our Smarties up here You had me wonderin'......
Thanks for all this great info....I am printin' it out.......

Oh I was wondering about that myself! I LOVE Rockets! But are you telling me they have NO Smarties south of the border?

Continue on Folks I am enjoying your discussion

Okay folks. I am really intrested in trying new things with my workouts.

So I eat 1 pack of smarties before I go work out (cardio) and I will still be in Ketosis?

To quote Fridayeyes!

" My cardio suffers noticeably when I do not have a full glycogen load, which is consistent with low-carbing. When I am on a low-carb cycle, I spike my carbs just before my lifting with about 20-25 g of dextrose, or about 3-4 rolls of Smarties. I eat 1.5-2 rolls 15 mins before my workout, and have the rest with a protein shake right after."

LOL, I'm not sure what the American equivalent of a Canadian Smartie would be. An M&M, maybe?

The concept of using dextrose just before and right after your workouts is called a Targeted Ketogenic Diet, or TKD for short. You very likely will remain in ketosis the entire time, or at worst, you will be out for an hr or so. Individuals vary. In a sense, the TKD is a bit like using glutamine. It lets you work out harder, thereby burning more cals and giving the muscles more stimulus to grow. IMHO, one roll isn't enough (7 g of carbs). I'd try 2, given that you're a guy with more muscle mass than me. (I'm around 135 LBM, give or take a couple) Try one, and if you don't feel a definite rush within half an hr, do two next time.

After your workout (and do this for lifting, not for cardio), you have about half an hour to get some more dextrose and some protein into your system. This half hr is called the 'anabolic window', and it's the period where your body decides, based on what you've just done and what the resource profile (food intake) looks like, if it should tear down muscle and make you more aerodynamic, or grow muscle. Cortisol rises during this time, and cortisol is that nasty muscle-wasting hormone. The dextrose-protein combo keeps cortisol low and speeds the protein to the muscles for growth and repair.

Cheers,

Friday

Hi Friday,

My kids found me some rocketsSmarties).....but I have a few questions for you.....
1. I am interested in fat loss/weight loss not muscle gain per se...but I do want to firm up big time.

2. I am mostly on machines right now with a few free weights for things like biceps curls, triceps(10 lbs), dead weights, 20 lbs but thats it nothing else except machines.

3. The machines I do are for upper and lower body...can't remember their names...we did start out at the lowest weight possible but I quickly upped that considerably but still not by any means big weights! I can't remember much of the weights..I do know one that you pull in front of you for your upper arms is 50 lbs and I know a leg push for your thigh muscles I am up to 120 lbs.

4. You can tell I am new to this! don't know any of the muscle names except my triceps cause they are real bad!! my wings I call them!! I use a rope thing I pull down on and that is 50 lbs now.....

5. I am doing 12 reps of these exercise 2x and by next week will be up to 3x....

6. I also do 45 - 60 minute of cardio on the treadmill or sometimes I take an aerobic class or aquafit class...


7.. Now my qusetion is at this rate, I know I haven't given you a LOT of info, but do you really think I need the rockets and extra carbs yet?

Personally, no. It looks like your weight training is fairly light. If you were doing a more strenuous weight program and then doing heavy cardio you might need some extra carbs. Also if you do think you need some extra carbs I think a piece of fruit offers much more in the way of total nutrition than candy.


Smarties Ingredients (Includes X-Treme Sour & Tropical): Dextrose, Citric Acid, Calcium Stearate, Artificial Flavors and Colors (Red 40 Lake, Yellow 5 Lake, Yellow 6 Lake, Blue 2 Lake).

Percentage RDA based on a 2000 calorie diet.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SERVING SIZE - One 15 tablet roll


%RDA
Calories 25 1
Total Fat 0 g. 0
Total Carbs 5 g. 2
Sugars 5 g. -
Sodium 0 mg. 0 mg.
Protein 0 g. 0

Thanks Hornbrau!

Thats what I thought! I will stick to my orange and my piece of LC bread and see how it goes! I am enjoying the gym tremendously but am no where near a weight lifter

Candy did seem a bit much......

Friday you seem to be in awesome shape! and really into this stuff! you too Hornbrau......maybe one of these days....

I am goiing to get some of those protein drinks tho' cause I am NOT eating enough
Yesterday I did fitday and I only at 1100 calories I was REALLY surprised....I had 45 carbs tho' !!!! I had two apples...I didn't realize how high they were in carbs!!!! no more of them.......

I must be in high ketosis tho' because I am just NOT hungry! My trainer said I should be MORE hungry as I am exercising ...he said to watch out for it....

Anyway, thanks for all your help.....

Keep smilin'