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  #701   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 19:40
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BawdyWench
Yup, trying to be funny, but also just curious why these expressions would be in our culture if vegetables were believed to be good for you.

Why not "meating out" or "he's a T-bone." Granted, we do have "meat-head," but nothing else.

Both curious and funny.

LOL Okay. I am a social retard haha. I have a hard time telling if people are serious or not online. I usually need some kind of suggestive smilies, or, it has to be really really obvious otherwise I assume they were serious
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  #702   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 19:47
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: Paleo 99.5%
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Well... there's "porking out". A beautiful young woman used to be called a "Tomato". Hmm... I'm sure there must be more. Studly young men are called Chok Boys which is a play on the vegetable Bok Choy. When you see one you ask him if he'd like to take a wok with you. Ok, just made that up.
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  #703   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 19:53
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
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Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/175/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
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Calling someone a 'dog' is not a complement. People who follow without thinking are called sheep. When you make a mistake that affects others, you are the goat. A person who is catty is not nice to be around.
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  #704   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 19:57
Wyvrn's Avatar
Wyvrn Wyvrn is offline
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Plan: paleo/lowcarb
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But if someone is extra nice, they might be called a peach!

Wyv
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  #705   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 19:58
theBear theBear is offline
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Do you read? I have already said don't bother with this nonsense, as I do not have the time to waste on it (I said I wouldn't, so why am I bothering to even respond?). I have no problem whatsoever understanding exactly what you have said, trust me.

If you are interested in diet, fine, but if you are only interested in loudly beating your own drum- which action has only shown yourself as interested in something else, why not find some other thread to lurk about on.

I know from my extensive personal experience what is true and works and what does not- not because of theories. I see no utility in being tentative or equivocal in what I have to say regarding what has proven true and what has not.

Just like the black box, it matters not what or why something works, only that it does. After 47 years, it gets way beyond conjecture. I am positive, because of how I have lived. If you don't like the truth I am describing about diet and the human body, that is your loss, not mine. And judging from what the rest around here have to say, you are in the minority.

You may 'be in everything', but I'm sorry: IMHO, so far you have contributed zilch of value to our discussion.
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  #706   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 20:30
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
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I began my journey of 100,000 steps when I was 23 years and 9 mos old. I did not attack nor question the veracity of my informant, I wrote to him (Stefansson) and told him about my trip at the time. He answered me, and I was stoked.

At first on the path, I questioned whether vegetation might not have some value, it was only after many years trudging along that it became more and more clear that was not the case, and that vegetation had only body-negative effects in the diet.

It seems that at the age of 23 and 6 mos, and after having discovered that she is also genetically obese (in fact, a lot more so than even I -a truly Herculean effort had to have been made to lose THAT much bodyfat!), my contrarian correspondent might stop and have a look around at the bigger picture and consider that she might well be misinformed about the value of vegetables- and perhaps a bit more as well about life and what it is all about. By 1982 I had already lived my lifestyle for 24 years, but had yet to realise how much I needed more strenuous exercise than just running provided.

I don't really think we should be arguing. 115 is a very good size/weight for a 5'5" female.

Last edited by theBear : Wed, Mar-15-06 at 20:32. Reason: missing bit
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  #707   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 20:42
Fauve Fauve is offline
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Plan: Carnivore
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Thank you, Bear, for answering my questions.
Would you say that red meat, fowl and fish are equally good for us, or is one superior to the other and should be eaten more frequently?
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  #708   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 21:52
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
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Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
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I’m assuming that we all agree that “carbs” are bad.

In this case, all things being equal, aside from a palate preference, if one can derive all necessary nutrients from non-carb sources, to what end would a person ingest carbs?

Only reason is to purge some calories using the high nutrient to calorie ratio inherent in veggies and fruits?

And, do we agree that veggies and fruits loaded with nutrients (not as easily absorbed as from an animal) offer it’s benefits with the price of whatever harmful effects occur with the higher carb intake?

In my view, either carbs are bad or they’re not. The “good” carb and “bad” carb thing makes no sense. Rather, it should mean that “good” carbs are those where one weighs the price of the harmful effects of carbs vs. the beneficial side of acquiring certain nutrients. Of course, bad carbs would…well…just carbs without any nutrients.

Again, all things being equal and aside from nutrient density, what is the difference between carb intake from a veggie, fruit, chocolate, or white bread?
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  #709   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 22:59
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
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By my experience, the scale runs something like this:

Given enough fat to lean:

One kg of red meat is nutritionally equal to two kgs of fowl, or three kgs of fish. This is valid so long as the meat is fresh and not cooked- or at least, cooked very little.

This is a quantity assessment. Which kind you eat the most of may be either a matter of taste or cost.

Vegetables of any kind have few or very poor human-utilisable nutrients, so the term 'nutrient to calorie ratio' is a relatively meaningless non-sequitor.

All carbs are identical: they all become glucose once in the body.

Carbs (glucose)= insulin... Insulin = body damage/fat storage... Simple.
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  #710   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 23:05
Fauve Fauve is offline
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Plan: Carnivore
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ok, that's great, thanks Bear.
Is it safe to eat fowl that has been cooked very little? or fish for that matter?
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  #711   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 23:07
Fauve Fauve is offline
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Plan: Carnivore
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oh, and, sorry, is canned fish considered healthy? or the canning process, and the added salt, ruins it?
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  #712   ^
Old Thu, Mar-16-06, 08:33
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LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Plan: simple HFLC <30g
Stats: 74/72/62 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
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Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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I thought Steffanson (sp?) ate boiled fish with his eskimos- I wonder how much he boiled it. I have a problem in that my hubby won't eat meat unless it's practically incinerated - I can eat it either way but recently get turned off overcooked meat.

I'm not sure I agree that vegetables don't have value and we can't absorb the nutrients - for instance potassium. Could it be that if you overcook the meat, or add too much salt etc. a demand for things like potassium and vitamin C increases - therefore you have to eat more veggies. I know if I've indulged too much in salt, I feel drawn to eating more vegetables - especially things like tomatoes, which are high in potassium.

My guess is I probably wouldn't feel this way if I were drinking lots of meat broth - as that contains lots of potassium etc.
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  #713   ^
Old Thu, Mar-16-06, 08:36
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Plan: simple HFLC <30g
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Regarding problems of leg cramps at night etc. - would this be due to eating too much protein and too little fat? Or is it lack of electrolytes - which is the conventional view (i.e. Ca/Mg/K)?
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  #714   ^
Old Thu, Mar-16-06, 08:37
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TwilightZ TwilightZ is offline
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Plan: meat and meat by-products
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Bear,

I know you use spices. What do you think of very low carb plant based substances like mustard and capers, or high fat stuff like avocado (made into guacamole) and olives, used in very small amounts as condiments or to jazz up something more bland like fish?
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  #715   ^
Old Thu, Mar-16-06, 11:54
Wyvrn's Avatar
Wyvrn Wyvrn is offline
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Plan: paleo/lowcarb
Stats: 210/162/145 Female 62in
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Location: Olympia, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
Again, all things being equal and aside from nutrient density, what is the difference between carb intake from a veggie, fruit, chocolate, or white bread?
It depends on how you define "carb". When some people say "carb" they mean anything of plant origin. I think this is misleading because many vegetables actually contain a negligible amount of digestible carbohydrate. When I say "carb" I mean carbohydrate. Sugar, starch. Plant fiber is also chemically a carb, though metabolically it's not considered a carb because it is mostly unabsorbed and what little is absorbed is absorbed as fat.

I consider all the vegetable foods I eat to be good (but not "good carbs" because they are mostly very low in carbohydrate) because of how they make me feel and/or taste.

Wyv
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  #716   ^
Old Thu, Mar-16-06, 12:24
Bat Spit Bat Spit is offline
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Plan: paleo-ish
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Quote:
I know from my extensive personal experience what is true and works and what does not- not because of theories. I see no utility in being tentative or equivocal in what I have to say regarding what has proven true and what has not.


Bear, all that Wooo has been saying is what most of the other dissidents in this thread have been saying.

A one rat study is not scientifically valid. When asked to provide additional data points, you scoff.

Whether I agree with the animal products only point of view or not, you do not present a logical case. You insist that we take your word and only your word on faith.

I didn't buy that when the clegy was selling it, I'm not going to buy it now just because I like the way it sounds.
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  #717   ^
Old Thu, Mar-16-06, 19:39
theBear theBear is offline
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I think we can agree that to avoid food poisoning, chicken should be just cooked (still very moist and soft, it is right when the pink just leaves the meat- no further). Most people dramatically overcook it. Other birds do not seem to have the same degree of dangerous bacterial contamination-hazard, and are traditionally eaten rare.

Fish is best raw (sashimi). According to Stefansson the Inuit do not usually boil or cook fish- they rarely dry it either. (Inuit boil red meat but only until rare). Fishing in the frozen North is only a summer thing, and they stack the catch up for eating later. Some of it becomes pretty stinky before the freeze comes, but they eat it anyway- they consider it a delicacy once it becomes 'ripe' (!). Stef said this is their equivalent of Limburger and other 'ripe' cheeses eaten in Western cuisine. Fish which has been canned is very poor food- once in a while, perhaps, but I find canned tuna is like eating salted felt. No vitamins and the proteins denatured.

Red meat which has been overcook is repulsive to your body, it is only done that way for your mind. I Have noticed that people who are brought up in a family which cremates the steaks and likes long cooked dishes like pot roast- usually eat very little of it. Once onto an all meat diet, most who try find that as they get further into the trip they want the meat cooked less and less - they progress from medium rare to rare to blood rare to 'bleu'. I really like the way it tastes raw- raw good quality liver, too. Cold raw beef suet is not very palatable, however.

Adding salt to food is not good. If you eat nothing but steaks you will never have any deficiencies.

About protein: The dietary 'profession' lists the so called 'essential amino acids'- 23 in number. These are the ones which cause measurable short term problems- no studies have been made over a long term. In your digestive process, protein is not reduced to amino acids. The proteins are rendered soluble and absorbed as protein, it is in the blood that the protein is reduced to aminos, some strings are not reduced and remain as short amino acid strings. Through long evolutionary pressures, we have come to lack many features and systems that are found in herbivores and true omnivores, like a rat's ability to synthesize vitamins in its intestines, and the bacteria which can convert carotene into Vit A. We also need and use in small quantities- mostly in dense cartilage/fibrous tissues like the intervertebral disks- some protein strings which we cannot build up from basic amino acids, and which are available only from meat, These proteins have configurations we lack the genetic coding for production, and many include some 'non-essential' aminos, as well. One very serious side effect of following a vegan or near vegan diet is back problems- the Seventh Day Adventists have hospitals which specialise in vertebral fusing operations and other repairs for this condition.

Leg cramps are most likely due to insufficient or infrequent stretching, not diet.

Spices help lots of foods- but I don't think non-spice vegetables ike avocado have any value in teh extremely low amounts that spices are effective in. Guacamole is a very carby vegetable dish, a food-stuff, not a spice, the avocado fruit has no 'fat', but unsat. vegetable oils which are not good for you. Olives are a salty, carby, (usually evil tasting) fruit- not a spice. Hot chillies cloves, black pepper and garlic are examples of spices.

Correct, vegetables are mostly indigestible cellulose-refuse. There are no 'exotic carbs' in vegetables, only sugars, starches and cellulose. NO carb can be 'absorbed as fat', carbs contain chemically bound oxygen, fats do not- they are hydrocarbons. The organic fatty acids contain oxygen only as a part of the attached carboxylic radical, COOH.

All vegetable carbs other than cellulose (they ALL convert to glucose), once set free of the cell by processing or cooking are absorbable by the human gut. The residue of indigestible vegetable protein and any unabsorbed carbs feed a massive bacterial colony in the large intestines (80+% of feces on a mixed or vegetable diet is dead bacteria). The bacteria may excrete toxins which enter your blood stream. The residue from vegetation a fibrous, rough material which scratches the sensitive lining of you small intestines and causes a callus to form over time as a defensive reaction. Calluses on the lining of the small intestine interfere with the extraction of nutrients. Vegetables of any sort have nothing whatsoever to recommend them, other than as dire emergency survival fare- to temporarily stave off death from acute starvation.

I have to question the assertion that since you cannot find (rather, have ignored) other examples of the outcome of long term zero-carb diet, you conclude my experience is invalid, 'a single-rat experiment'. But no-one has found a way to make any rat live for dozens of years, nor have they had colonies of such rats to study either, have they?

In any event, I am far from alone, there have been hundreds of thousands of zero-carb diet people, living that lifestyle over uncounted thousands of years, who show by studies of their remains as well as by studies done in life by Stefansson and many others that they are identical to or better than me in health, lack of degradation of the body, and great longevity, barring trauma and damage from severe starvation. These are the Arctic Inuit. To compare my account of real life experiments with the superstitious and imaginary babble of the 'clergy' is disingenuous in the extreme, and makes the speaker look the fool. If you don't 'buy' what I have to say because it challenges a precious, closely held belief system about diet, well hey- just disregard it, your lack of comprehension is no loss to me- or the others.

In a subject which is culturally, not logically imposed, what on earth is the term 'logical case', supposed to mean, anyway? We are not talking about logic, we are talking about physically demonstrable facts.

I don't care a rat's bum about 'scientifically valid' with regard to a subject charged with emotional and economic bias, in a world where scientific workers routinely lie, alter results and fabricate evidence. My evidence is rock-solid- I am living proof. I have no reason to doubt Stefansson's evidence either. So, can we get back the real world?

Last edited by theBear : Thu, Mar-16-06 at 19:41. Reason: missing
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  #718   ^
Old Thu, Mar-16-06, 23:17
Fauve Fauve is offline
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Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
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Hi Bear,
thanks for all the info.
one more question: do you consider coconut oil a good fat? I use it lately to scramble my eggs in the morning and to quickly grill my steaks.
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  #719   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 01:44
theBear theBear is offline
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Coconut and palm oils I feel are the good veggie ones. They are both primarily saturated fat, and coconut is among the medium chain triglycerides well regarded for rapid absorption and quick energy. They are still not as a good a food as butter and beef suet, however. You can render beef suet in the oven at 250F, draining the liquefied fat (tallow) off the crispy bits. It will be very dry as you remove it from the heat, and can be simply poured into a jar, and closed up. It will keep well at room temp. It is the best one for frying steaks.

I am not sure what is meant by 'grilling'- I have heard this term used for cooking under an overhead flame; spitted over charcoal; and fried on a hot metal plate (sometimes called a 'grill'); and also placed on a wire rack over either a flame or hot coals. Frying very briefly in hot fat in a pan or skillet is best, it is very quick, cooks to a nice brown just the surface and therefore you lose only the smallest amount of vitamins and nutritive value. Beef fat (tallow) is very stable and does not turn or degrade when heated. If it gets too hot it will evaporate (smoke), however.
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  #720   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 06:17
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lynnp lynnp is offline
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Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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I just saw another article bashing LC. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060317/ts_nm/diets_dc Giving the link in case anyone wants to read it.
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  #721   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 08:36
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LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Plan: simple HFLC <30g
Stats: 74/72/62 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29%/27%/24%
Progress: 17%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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Ok -

how to wean myself off salt? And what about cooking meat in a slow-cooker - is that too much? I cooked up a bunch of meat, organs (chicken liver/kidneys) and bacon in my slow-cooker yesterday on a VERY low heat and although it was ok, even with some herbs/spices/garlic it tasted bland to me without a little sea salt. So I ended up adding a little and it was suddenly very tasty.

Is this just me - does no-one else have this problem?

It was nice and fatty though.

I'm still scared of giving up veggies though, especially as I've been ill 4 times in the past 4 months with colds/throat viruses, which is unusual for me. I keep wondering maybe my demands for vitamin C etc are higher than everyone elses.
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  #722   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 09:01
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lynnp lynnp is offline
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Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
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Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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Loops, I'd say that you shouldn't do too much too soon or you may burn out and give in all together. Get yourself in the habit and prefernce of all protein and fat, then start to ween yourself of the salt and additions you are accustomed to now. You are doing so great switching to protein/fat and you need to give yourself time. It will be a much more maintainable change if you don't shock your system too soon and throw in the towel. Jusy my opinion.
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  #723   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 09:58
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
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Are you sure you want to give up salt? Sounds like it is good for you.
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  #724   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 10:36
CGraff CGraff is offline
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Plan: my own
Stats: -/-/- Female 67 inches
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theBear, what is normal for BM's with this way of eating? how often? thanks.
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  #725   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 10:50
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Demi Demi is offline
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Plan: LCHF
Stats: 215/170/160 Female 5'10"
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Progress: 82%
Location: UK
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  #726   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 11:30
serrelind serrelind is offline
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Plan: paleoish
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Weaning yourself off salt slowly is a good strategy. I'm having the same issues with salt, Loops. Salt added in meats makes everything tastier. But can't ask myself to be perfect at this point. I know I'm heading toward the right direction by eating mostly meat though My vices right now are: eating non-organic meat, salt, and drinking too much coffee! LOL.
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  #727   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 12:36
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lynnp lynnp is offline
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Posts: 4,072
 
Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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Thanks Demi for the link.
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  #728   ^
Old Fri, Mar-17-06, 13:15
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Plan: simple HFLC <30g
Stats: 74/72/62 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29%/27%/24%
Progress: 17%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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Some things taste fine without salt - I think it's what you're used to. I can't stand the sausages here though (chorizos) - they have WAY too much salt - makes me feel ill eating them. However a pork chop in my opinion tastes way better with a little salt added.

Might be why I love butter as well.
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