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  #561   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 03:14
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Posts: 1,719
 
Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayustar
Yay, when do we want to start? I am scared to weigh lol. I want to see what happens though. I don't know how many people want to try this. We should open a thread just for this? I don't know, what do you suggest? It would be an interesting study. It is easier to do it if someone else is doing it with you. I prefer meat over vegetables *mind you I LOVE veggies and fruit, well, I love ALL food..this is how I got this way in the first place haha* If we have a bunch of people doing this and logging results everyday then that would be awesome.


I think starting a thread in the challenges section would be a good idea..and we can post our results there! (have you re-thought the whole Cheese thing??..come on..even Bear eats cheese ...lol)
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  #562   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 03:34
Ayustar's Avatar
Ayustar Ayustar is offline
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Posts: 2,967
 
Plan: Human Experimentation
Stats: 170/100/105 Female 4'10
BF:
Progress: 108%
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
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Cheese stalls me, but I can choose not to eat it, lol. Well, I guess we can have cheese, at least the people who choose to eat it. That is the only rule I will bend haha. I think sugar free Jello is acceptable as well but no whipped cream! I know, painful, but you will live, I AM allowing cheese lol.

I will start the thread, I got nothing else to do at work, lol.
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  #563   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 06:40
theBear theBear is offline
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Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
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Some cancer is known to be caused by chemical agents, like lung cancer and mesothelioma (asbestos). Some are caused by UV radiation, like skin cancer. Radiation exposure is a known cause, and a few have viral causes (HPV). Many, however are mysterious. I suspect the air pollution mediated by nuclear energy- i.e., tritium decay- the caused of 'photochemical smog, and perhaps others. Lung cancer amongst non smokers is on the rise, particularly in women in the US- home to well over 100 reactors, plus tonnes of waste held in water. Neutrons and the hydrogen in water wind up as tritium, an unstable, radiation emitting isotope: water- *hydrogen* plus neutron = 'heavy' water- *deuterium* plus neutron = 'heavy-(er)' water- *tritium*.... tritium minus beta particle- *electron* plus O2 = helium 3 plus 2 O *atomic oxygen*... 2 O plus 2 O2 = 2 O3 *ozone*. Perhaps this ozone is carcinogenic and perhaps beta particles emitted inside the lung are the thing. Food however would have to be contaminated with something... Vegetables raised as food are fed chemicals and pesticides, which may be carcinogenic, but nothing like that is likely to make it through the animal into its meat.

When I eat out, I ask the waiter to leave all teh veggies in the kitchen, as 'I hate to see food go to waste'. On arrival I may ask the bread dish be removed, but the butter left on the table I don't order any 'meat dish' type food, but rare beef, fried or roasted chicken, fish or soft eggs. I ask that they not put any salt on the meat (I will return overcooked and/or salted meat to the kitchen).

At 12 years into the path, I was sent to jail for 2 years. THAT was a challenge, not restaurants. Jails are like the military, the food is grease and starch based. At first I traded my veggies with other inmates who did not want meat (Black Muslims will not eat chicken or pork) and thus avoided carbs. I worked my way into the food service and was able to feed my self the way I wanted to. I traded my allowed purchase of cigarettes (2 cartons/wk) for a steak a day- separate from what I gave myself from the general food issue. I did very well indeed. Meat can be found everywhere except in a vegetarian restaurant- avoid these.

I do not recommend drinking artificially sweetened drinks like diet cola for eh simple reason that it maintains a taste and desire for sweet-tasting things, and if you do not reinforce this, it will fade away. After about 10 years on the diet I lost all interest in things 'bad'. Not that I ever was the sort who got 'sidetracked'. I seem to have a remarkable ability to focus 100% of my attention on something for hours to the exclusion of everything else in my environment. I was like this as a small child.

Of course females adopt socialisation more deeply than males, it is the female's role in human society to conserve and teach the 'rules of behaviour' The mother (not the father) teaches the child what to eat.

Loops- Disregard any other advice. Your 'problem' is due to your training, not your diet. The effect of carbs on a person who does not eat them could be just an effect from the 'insulin rush', which can act like a central nervous system stimulant, as seen in many children, and is the reason for the mistaken claim common in advertising that carbs are 'energy food'.

Muscles perform according to the training you give them. Swimming is a low resistance aerobic exercise, distance running is a medium to high resistance aerobic exercise, sprinting is a very high resistance anaerobic exercise. Swimming conditions only your lungs, control of breath and circulation and does not build strength, muscle tone or the kind of endurance which can be transferred to land based exercise. Swimming will stimulate the formation of a uniform layer of fat on your body to counter heat loss.

You can train for endurance (aerobic) or strength (anaerobic) Each uses a different modification of the basic muscle fibre. Each person has a mix of type 1 and type 2, or fast twitch, slow twitch. If you train as a marathoner, you suppress one and enhance the other- if you train as a sprinter, the reverse happens. It is an either/or situation. You cannot be at the same time both a marathoner and a sprinter- there is no free lunch. ALL muscle fibres use the same fuel, fast and slow both burn only fat. NO muscle fibre uses carbs. (Once more) glycogen is not used to do work, only ATP-ADP reduction is used, that is rebuilt by fat. Glycogen does not produce ATP. Glycogen is not depleted with exercise- this is proven and is in the literature. Opinions to the contrary are just repeating fairy tales from the past. Carb intake reduces strength/speed, and likewise reduces endurance/distance.

Do not worry about minerals and other trace nutrients, meat has them all in more than adequate amounts. Supplements, while not necessary are not going to hurt you unless you take them in excess. When I am at a dinner party, I am careful to pick out what I know is just meat and leave the rest, no matter what it is.

Humans have never eaten bones, we cannot digest them and it is a decidedly bad idea to try.

Woo's problem is eating too many carbs, no matter what 'reason' is used as an excuse. Hypoglycemia (low blood glucose) is caused by dietary carb intake. Glucose is stable and constant in a fasting state or in a fat-fed, zero carb, keto-adapted state.

I lift very heavy weights in very short intense workouts, I NEVER eat carbs. I always have heaps of energy. I ride my bike very fast over mountain tails for 30-45 minutes, I always have heaps of energy. Lifting weights has no effect on your glucose. Unless you have some sort of very bad disease or physical disorder, you must be eating sugar or starch in some form to cause your glucose level changes.

Liking veggies has EVERYTHING to do with you socialisation. Socialisation takes the place of (overrides) instinct, and seems to the person socialised to be 'natural and instinctive'- just as you assert. It is an illusion. I have seen some very creative attempts to justify liking/eating veggies in 47 years: this one is the very best so far. Really taking a stretch. Almost in the same box with the classic "it's your blood type".

Again (with feeling)...

Ice cream is: egg yolks, cream, non-lactose milk protein in water, vanilla extract and a tiny pinch of aspartame. For a 6 qt White Mt. churn: 16 yolks, 1.8 litres cream, 250 ml water with 2 heaping tablespoons of a mix of 3 parts calcium caseinate and one part ion exchange whey (not isolate) two tablespoons of high quality vanilla. You can spice it up by grinding up fresh vanilla bean. If you like coffee flavour, add three small cups of short-black espresso. Be careful not to run the machine too long or it will turn to butter.

Humans have classic insectivorous dentition. We have no 'grinding' molars like bovines. Our molars are bug-crushing, cannot grow, have unsealed groves which quickly admit bacteria, and thus cannot tolerate abrasion and carbohydrates- they wear away and rot. SOME carnivores need and have shearing teeth, (carnassals), Many animals both carnivores and omnivores as well as some frogs(!) and a deer- have long canines (tusks)- these are used always as display and fighting with some utility as holding tools. We have mouths for speech, and tusks are of no aid when you have knives.

Humans make and use knives- and have done so for ~4.5 million years. Enamel meant to wear grows continuously and is shaped in rolls, the layers separated by dentine, such as all ruminants have. Compared to rats and pigs, our teeth have a very thin and fragile enamel coat. Apes are very distant relations, and their teeth are not a good comparison. I am very well educated on anatomy and comparative anatomy. I am not telling stories, and I did not intend to teach ancient diets and I do not intend to lecture the group on body structures and purposes, but I do feel from time to time a need to clear up widespread misunderstandings of structure.

Where have you been? Gorillas proved sterile in captivity when fed on a total herbivorous diet- It was then discovered that in the wild they consume quantities of insects, principally wood-grubs and their massive back musculature is a specialisation to assist pulling the bark from trees to get at the bugs. Once the nature of the animal food acceptable to gorillas was known, zoos have been able properly feed, and to breed them successfully. With as many papers and studies on chimpanzee hunting/gathering behaviour, I am astounded that you do not understand their dietary habits. Then again, what gorillas and chimps eat is not relevant to human diet, which is what my thread is all about.

What is this term ' the meat and egg fast' supposed to mean? A 'fast' means (quite literally) going completely without food, i.e., not eating anything.

Yes, Dean, more myths. Chiropractors are good for putting your back in line, but are mostly charlatans and scams when it comes to everything else. This is why they receive no respect from medicine- most MD's will suffer long with a spinal displacement, rather than be seen visiting a chiro.

There are not four types, only two, fast and slow, and fast do have more mitochondria and can reprocess ADP to ATP faster than the slow ones, but both use only fatty acids. NO muscle fibre needs, or can use glucose. The following statement is the equivalent to describing a flying pig's wings:

"The aerobic fast-twitch fiber is really no longer a muscle, but a bag full of mitochondria with a few contractile fibers remaining. The mitochondria in this fiber are one-third the size of those in the aerobic slow-twitch fiber. These smaller mitochondria can only oxidize the components of glucose, not fatty acids or ketones as the larger mitochondria can". No such thing, I am afraid. Just because you can read something published somewhere does not mean it is true.

Note on cheese, also one of my faves, and something that I consume in every meal- it is VERY constipating if eaten in too high a quantity- this shows up very quickly (and hurts like hell.) Coffee is a good balancer for cheese, as (strong) coffee will give you the runs if taken in too high a quantity. NOTE- This only holds good for someone on a really low carb/zero carb, all meat diet. I think low-carb mixed-diet people (some posts) do not get either effect to any great extent. Since the whole focus of my case here is to elucidate the carnivore, many of you out there may not find some thing of any use in you efforts to find a normal body.

If you do not add sugar, whipped cream is the same as fresh pouring cream. It is quite tasty- I love it.
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  #564   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 06:49
lynnp's Avatar
lynnp lynnp is offline
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Posts: 4,072
 
Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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Gstout, her is Bears recipe:

Zero carb icecream

zero-carb ice cream with raw egg yolks, heavy cream, lactose-free milk protein and various flavours like vanilla and espresso. I use a very small amount of aspartame as a sweetener, since ice cream seems to need it. I have two sizes of White Mountain churn. Typical: 16 egg yolks, 2 litres heavy cream (35% mf), one cup water with two heaping tablespoons of a 3 to 1 mixture of calcium caseinate/ion exchange whey (or use lactose free 'total milk protein'- if you can find it), 1/4 teaspoon aspartame (Nutrasweet), three cups double short-black espresso, 2 tablespoon of high quality vanilla extract. Use a 6 qt churn with coarse salt and broken lump ice. Don't let the churn go too long, or it will turn to butter. You can skip the milk protein, but the texture will suffer.

Bear
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  #565   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 07:45
ChicknLady's Avatar
ChicknLady ChicknLady is offline
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Posts: 2,046
 
Plan: Low carb
Stats: 153/150/140 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 23%
Location: Pennsylvania
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I'm curious if anyone here has any idea what sorts of "vegetables" were even in EXISTENCE a million years ago. Most fruits and vegetables that we enjoy (or not) today have been bred and hydridized for thousands of years, and have little resemblence to what originated them.

Alot people malign the feed-lot cow, but how different are our modern vegetables, bred for disease/insect resistance, taste, size, color, transportability etc... with little concern for maintaining it's nutritive content. Eat five servings a day, and what are you really placing in your body? (not to mention the chemicals and bacteria)

Except perhaps in more tropical regions, most of early humans did not live in a Garden of Eden with plums, fresh heads of broccoli, and Granny Smiths dripping from the trees. I'm sure in the brief berry season they would eat many berries, probably realizing that "eat lots of berries- get fatter- good thing". They were early humans- they weren't stupid. Maybe that's the reason our bodies were designed to store excess carbs as body fat- in the past most high-carb vegetation (berries, fruit, tubers) was available in the fall when our bodies might need an extra layer of fat. Bears do that before they hiberanate.

Berries are fruit are very seasonal, however, and I think we ate mostly animals, insects, and grubs, and only ate non-sweet vegetation like greens as a last resort. In nature, most vegetation is bitter, very low-calorie, and will not satisfy hunger- not attractive to most anyone. It's like our deer here in PA- in a hard winter they will herd up in sheltered areas and eat hemlock needles and twigs. It provides them almost no nutrition, but it's better to them than eating nothing.

I think people forget that there were very few vegetables that were palatable to humans when we were evolving. Try eating dandylion leaves- a typical wild green that would have been around in prehistoric times- as an example of what I'm trying to say.
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  #566   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 07:58
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LOOPS LOOPS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,091
 
Plan: simple HFLC <30g
Stats: 74/72/62 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29%/27%/24%
Progress: 17%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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from what I understand cheese is full of calcium, and too high a calcium:magnesium ratio = constipation. Nuts, seeds and vegetables are full of magnesium, so maybe that is why some low-carbers get constipation if eating too much cheese and not many veggies?

In my experience, several things get things moving - magnesium tablets/solution, fish oil and making sure the diet is really high in fat.

I have read that animal fats are very much needed for absorption of minerals, but are in themselves not good sources (well, of magnesium in particular - they are very good sources of zinc and selenium for example). Also drinking water is probably a factor - if soft water is being drunk then more minerals from diet are needed.

Nutritiondata.com told me I would get around 100mg Mg a day from an all animal product diet. That seems very low. Calcium on the other hand can easily come out at nearly a gram with the addition of cheese.

I would obviously like to believe that we don't need any more Mg than this and that it is just fine to have low levels - but I've read too much stuff, and experienced too much pms/depression without extra Mg to buy into it all so easily.

You'll forgive my being a little doubtful bear - I don't mean to offend as I think it's good evidence you've done so well for so long 'all meat' - I just want to do the best thing for my bod.
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  #567   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 09:43
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Gstout Gstout is offline
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Posts: 80
 
Plan: Steak & Beer
Stats: 212/193/165 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: SouthEast USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnp
Gstout, her is Bears recipe:

Zero carb icecream

zero-carb ice cream with raw egg yolks, heavy cream, lactose-free milk protein and various flavours like vanilla and espresso. I use a very small amount of aspartame as a sweetener, since ice cream seems to need it. I have two sizes of White Mountain churn. Typical: 16 egg yolks, 2 litres heavy cream (35% mf), one cup water with two heaping tablespoons of a 3 to 1 mixture of calcium caseinate/ion exchange whey (or use lactose free 'total milk protein'- if you can find it), 1/4 teaspoon aspartame (Nutrasweet), three cups double short-black espresso, 2 tablespoon of high quality vanilla extract. Use a 6 qt churn with coarse salt and broken lump ice. Don't let the churn go too long, or it will turn to butter. You can skip the milk protein, but the texture will suffer.

Bear




ty ty ty ty DANKE lynnp!!!!! I'm gonna' give this a try this sommer.
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  #568   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 09:47
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Gstout Gstout is offline
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Posts: 80
 
Plan: Steak & Beer
Stats: 212/193/165 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: SouthEast USA
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Well WEEK 3 is complete. Fitday estimated I would have burned 3.6 lbs. The scales reflected a 5lb loss. Not bad, it seems I dodged the week3 stall by going to 5carbs/day and eating 70% FAT. hmmmm, I thinking the 72 miles walked didn't hurt either! Woooooot! theBear is a 47 year proof that FAT works!
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  #569   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 09:52
lynnp's Avatar
lynnp lynnp is offline
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Posts: 4,072
 
Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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You are very welcome Gstout.
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  #570   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 11:13
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mae_west mae_west is offline
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Posts: 422
 
Plan: keto/paleo with IF 18/6
Stats: 215.6/195.2/175 Female 68
BF:yes
Progress: 50%
Location: Kamloops, B.C. Canada
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I am not sure who coined the term "fast" in the meat and egg fast, but I think in our case it refers to adhering firmly or firmly loyal (adjective) as opposed to a non food fast (intransitive verb).
And yes, I was just over at the Merriam Webster site...

Anyway, it is just a name...
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  #571   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 11:47
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 7,374
 
Plan: IF & Keto
Stats: 205/193/170 Female 5'6
BF:Too much!
Progress: 34%
Location: Rural Maine
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I'm pretty sure it originated (or was made popular) with Atkins. He advocates a "fat fast" for the metabolically resistant. In its simplest form, you eat 10 ounces of cream cheese in one-ounce servings throughout the day. You end up getting about 1000 calories.

There are many variations -- the meat & egg fast and the yogurt fast, to name two.
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  #572   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 12:56
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Rob21370 Rob21370 is offline
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Posts: 225
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 336/297/140 Male 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 20%
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayustar
Well, I should propose an idea here....

Why don't we take some of us here who are already on the meat and egg fast or have been on it and have them do it for a month, very strict.

Then have someone who eats a more varied low carb diet and have them go on meat and egg and see what happens. I am game. I do the meat and egg fast almost exclusively, but sometimes I break and have vegetables and nuts, I try to stay away from peanuts but they are the devil, that is beside the point though.

What do you guys think? Do it for a month or so, very strict, no dairy other than butter? Whatever fats you like, mayo included?


I'm all up for it! I started the diet on 2/21. The next day we took a co-worker out to lunch for their final day and I had a cheese burger, no bun, and had a blue cheese salad instead of fries. That was the last piece of vegitation I ate..so that comes to approx. 2 1/2 weeks so far on eating nothing but various meats, cheese and eggs.

I'm losing weight much faster then the 4 previous times I really concentrated on a "low-carb" diet when supposedly the conventional wisdom says that as you re-do low carb it gets harder and harder to lose the weight. Other things that I haven't experienced since doing it zero-carb is none of the muscle cramp things, no real cravings for anything sweet or starchy, and I've tried to be consistant in eating 2 meals a day roughly the same size.

I can't tell you the number of times I used "low carb" products like the ice creams and found myself eating the real thing within hours of treating myself to that kind of thing. This time I gave up all of that crap, no allowances of 20-40g per day or whatever it was/is, the high fiber tortillas, the faux products and the faux mashed potatoes. You know, that faux pototoes/cauliflour thing has to be one of the most disgusting things I've ever eaten.
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  #573   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 13:11
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SkeeterX SkeeterX is offline
Posts: 2,307
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 296.0/285.4/180 Female 67 inches
BF:
Progress: 9%
Location: Wisconsin
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I've been solely on meat and eggs for 1 week now. Last nite I was up at 3 am with leg cramps that shot me straight out of bed. Today I picked up some Magnesium and Potassium tablets. Not going to go through that again. I lost 5.8 lbs this week though. I know this is the way I need to go.
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  #574   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 13:19
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicknLady
Except perhaps in more tropical regions, most of early humans did not live in a Garden of Eden...

I think people forget that there were very few vegetables that were palatable to humans when we were evolving. Try eating dandylion leaves- a typical wild green that would have been around in prehistoric times- as an example of what I'm trying to say.
Beth,

Love this post of yours! This has been what I have been trying to get others to see... that it would be SO illogical for our species to eat vegetation, so long as there were bugs and beasts around to eat! Especially in northern regions of the world, where my ancestors are from. I guess people just cannot see a world like that... one without all this "good for your health" vegetation.

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Sat, Mar-11-06 at 13:38.
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  #575   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 13:22
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob21370
I can't tell you the number of times I used "low carb" products like the ice creams and found myself eating the real thing within hours of treating myself to that kind of thing. This time I gave up all of that crap
Good for you, Rob!
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  #576   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 13:25
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Bear,

Another great post! Thanks so much for taking the time to answer so many questions and to do it with so much knowledgeable insight. People gotta respect you for that! This WOE of yours is making more sense all the time.

BTW... made that chicken with cream cheese/butter/spices pushed under the skin. What can I say, except and !!!

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Sat, Mar-11-06 at 15:14.
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  #577   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 13:27
Rob21370's Avatar
Rob21370 Rob21370 is offline
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Posts: 225
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 336/297/140 Male 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 20%
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
Good for you, Rob!


Thanks Deano. I just saw your post on the pork steaks in the Paleo eaters who eat veggies thread. Very funny
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  #578   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 14:21
Paleoanth's Avatar
Paleoanth Paleoanth is offline
Slothy Superhero
Posts: 12,159
 
Plan: Vegetarian Atkins
Stats: 165/145/125 Female 60 inches
BF:29/25.2/24
Progress: 50%
Location: Tennessee/Iowa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear

Humans have classic insectivorous dentition. We have no 'grinding' molars like bovines. Our molars are bug-crushing, cannot grow, have unsealed groves which quickly admit bacteria, and thus cannot tolerate abrasion and carbohydrates- they wear away and rot. SOME carnivores need and have shearing teeth, (carnassals), Many animals both carnivores and omnivores as well as some frogs(!) and a deer- have long canines (tusks)- these are used always as display and fighting with some utility as holding tools. We have mouths for speech, and tusks are of no aid when you have knives.


No, we don't. Insectivores and carnivores have sharp cresty molars and small incisors. You can say what you want, but I have NEVER seen human dentition described as "classically insectivorous". In fact our dentition is considered generalized in order to be able to consume different kinds of foods.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...d=12&lr=lang_en

For various views of human dentition:http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/wa...nDentition.html

I have no idea what you are doing discussing tusks. Our ancestors didn't have them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Humans make and use knives- and have done so for ~4.5 million years. Enamel meant to wear grows continuously and is shaped in rolls, the layers separated by dentine, such as all ruminants have. Compared to rats and pigs, our teeth have a very thin and fragile enamel coat. Apes are very distant relations, and their teeth are not a good comparison. I am very well educated on anatomy and comparative anatomy. I am not telling stories, and I did not intend to teach ancient diets and I do not intend to lecture the group on body structures and purposes, but I do feel from time to time a need to clear up widespread misunderstandings of structure.


No problems with the above. I am not talking about ancient diets, I am just trying to clear up some misconceptions you have about human dentition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Where have you been? Gorillas proved sterile in captivity when fed on a total herbivorous diet- It was then discovered that in the wild they consume quantities of insects, principally wood-grubs and their massive back musculature is a specialisation to assist pulling the bark from trees to get at the bugs. Once the nature of the animal food acceptable to gorillas was known, zoos have been able properly feed, and to breed them successfully. With as many papers and studies on chimpanzee hunting/gathering behaviour, I am astounded that you do not understand their dietary habits. Then again, what gorillas and chimps eat is not relevant to human diet, which is what my thread is all about.



Interesting. I hadn't heard the gorilla insect/grub thing. I am going to go look that up now. If you have any references, I would like to read them.
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  #579   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 15:22
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Posts: 1,719
 
Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Illinois
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Gearing myself up for meat, eggs, and cheese...i will start wednesday! (thats the end of week 3 induction for me and my weigh in wed morning)
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  #580   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 16:55
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LadyArya LadyArya is offline
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Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
Bear,
BTW... made that chicken with cream cheese/butter/spices pushed under the skin. What can I say, except and !!!


Not to steal Bear's thunder, but I used to do something similar to chicken thighs - top em with some cream cheese and dill .... mmmmm! If you haven't tried that spice with this, I definitely say give it a try

EDIT: come to think of it, it's not just dill. it's dill & garlic.

Last edited by LadyArya : Sat, Mar-11-06 at 17:22.
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  #581   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 20:06
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lynnp lynnp is offline
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Chicken with cream cheese on top and wrapped in bacon is great after baking
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  #582   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 20:46
theBear theBear is offline
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It is the casein in cheese which causes the binding. It makes an excellent glue. Elmer's is an example.

Leg cramps may mean not enough stretching.

(an aside)-

In the current Weekend Australian Magazine there is a badly written article trashing Atkins personally and his diet, calling it a 'fad'. It is full of inaccuracies, gossip and innuendo. A shame, really. I have been thinking about writing a letter, but I have not had much luck in getting my letters to the Australian published of late. I think they don't like the way I question government policy. My most recent effort last week, was to point out that the 'strict conditions' under which Oz sells uranium to the nuclear-armed powers was a total joke- and that Aussie U was being made into weapons all the time. Buyers must only promise not to use an equal amount as is Aussie sourced, from their combined stockpile, in munitions manufacture! I don't think this even includes depleted uranium projectiles.

Odd, I state that we have sharp, cresty molars (didn't you ever bite your cheek or tongue?) and small canines then amazingly, someone cites that as a contradiction? Seriously? Hmmm, I guess some people feel that they must defend their strongly held myths against all comers even if it means using contradiction and illogic and untruth. The references cited confirm my statements. I guess good reading/comprehension is not a universal. 'Tusks' are a term for prominent teeth, they usually are the canines. As pointed out our insectivore ancestors probably did not have very prominent ones, and we therefore never developed them, instead modifying the mouth structures which favour specialisation for speech.

What you 'have never seen' is not a valid argument nor a substantiation of your belief system. There is no scientific argument against the fact we belong to a remote branch of the insectivores. My teeth are STILL very sharp, since I never was much into chewing abrasive foods. None of my teeth have been lost to caries or wear. I have not had any problems other than mechanical damage with any of them. I harbour no 'misconceptions' about human dentition.

The chook recipe is not about cream cheese topping. I derived it from a traditional Russian recipe for Chicken Kiev, in which flavoured butter is placed in a pocket cut INTO the chicken breast meat. The breast is then breaded and deep fried. The meat becomes soft and melts in your mouth. The cream cheese and butter mix with the spices is placed under the skin, in contact with the meat, the cheese helps prevent the butter-mix from melting to the point of running away inside as well as on the outside. Dill is good- but stronger spices work best.

Salt is not good for a fat burner.

I like a bit of bacon from time to time, but I have a lot of trouble finding bacon which is not heavily loaded with salt. Soaking in water is not a very good solution.

Salt is not good in your food, it is a chemical- and will damage your skin and your kidneys over time. It also interferes with fat metabolism. When I was a dancer, I used no salt in anything, I drank huge amounts of plain water during class, and never had a bit of problem, whereas the other dancers scarfed salt tablets like candy and still had problems- plus their clothes dried out with a heavy salt rime on them. The skin and the kidneys are forced to shed excess salt and cannot quickly stop, however if you eat at least 30 gm of meat a day you will get all the salt you need, the urine and sweat can go as low as a few parts/billion of salt to conserve it.

Last edited by theBear : Sat, Mar-11-06 at 20:50. Reason: errors
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  #583   ^
Old Sat, Mar-11-06, 21:48
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Paleoanth Paleoanth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear

Odd, I state that we have sharp, cresty molars (didn't you ever bite your cheek or tongue?) and small canines then amazingly, someone cites that as a contradiction? Seriously? Hmmm, I guess some people feel that they must defend their strongly held myths against all comers even if it means using contradiction and illogic and untruth. The references cited confirm my statements. I guess good reading/comprehension is not a universal. 'Tusks' are a term for prominent teeth, they usually are the canines. As pointed out our insectivore ancestors probably did not have very prominent ones, and we therefore never developed them, instead modifying the mouth structures which favour specialisation for speech.

What you 'have never seen' is not a valid argument nor a substantiation of your belief system. There is no scientific argument against the fact we belong to a remote branch of the insectivores. My teeth are STILL very sharp, since I never was much into chewing abrasive foods. None of my teeth have been lost to caries or wear. I have not had any problems other than mechanical damage with any of them. I harbour no 'misconceptions' about human dentition.


You did not say that we had small canines-you described human dentition as carnivorous and then as insectivorous. Both of which have different dentition than we do. I don't know what strongly held myths you think I have-but again, I am not bashing your diet or dietary preferences. I really don't care what you eat or why you eat it. I was just trying to point out some things that you stated as biological fact that are not true. Believe me or not. The references cited, that I provided as you provide none, do NOT back up your statements. At least not your statements about human dentition. You have not provided any references backing up your statements. Personal, anecdotal experience about your own dentition is not valid scientifically.

I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong. I am perfectly willing to admit I don't know everything. In fact, when you mentioned the gorillas, I did look it up and I found the grub eating observations very interesting. However, you are now attacking me on a personal level.

I guess politeness is also not universal. Since you have implied that I am stupid and cannot comprehend any reading material that I cite. Nice. Thanks. I will be sure to let my dissertation committee know that I am a complete moron.
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Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 00:53
theBear theBear is offline
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I never said we had 'carnivore' teeth- if you define that as the dentition of cats and dogs. I also did not say we had 'insectivore' teeth like bats etc. I noted that the primate lineage was insectivorous in deep antiquity and our dentition was derivative of that origin. Our mouth shape and jaw motion is specialised for speech, not chewing or grinding food. Our teeth changed with the development of both speech and the use of knives. Our teeth have absolutely no relationship, in either structure or durability to the teeth of herbivores and fully evolved omnivores like the rodenta.

Sorry, I am not trying to show you as less than you are, but the tooth shape and description I found on your references did nothing to detract from my stand on this, thus the comment on comprehension- I think you selectively choose to observe only the aspects of dentition which serve your viewpoint of us as omnivores.

Unfortunately the human mixed or omnivorous diet in 'recent' times- i.e., prior to today's dentistry- meant that virtually no-one had any teeth left in their head by the age of thirty. Many people, indeed most- died from abscessed teeth. Compare that to the animals whose diet is either herbivorous or omnivorous, who do not have access to dentistry- they live a full lifespan without serious problems from their dentition. Say what you like, you cannot change truth into falsehood nor fables into reality: If we eat no carbs, our teeth will outlast us- no matter how long we live.
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  #585   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 01:06
theBear theBear is offline
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I am not attacking anyone, just asking a couple of reasonable questions based on observed behaviour, both of which have been on my mind for a while now:

Just WHAT is meant by 'Vegetarian Atkins?', other than, of course, an oxymoron?

Does 'Depraved Superhero' mean that you feel you must attempt to show all others as having 'ordinary, non-hero' status... if you can?

Or is this just your way of exhibiting an odd sense of humour on a basically egalitarian and meat-oriented dietary thread?
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  #586   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 01:21
theBear theBear is offline
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I have collected many papers over a long period of time that support my contentions. However I live on a very large, only partially developed rural property, which is basically somewhat unorganised and still takes a disproportionate amount of my time to manage.

I have not handled those papers for over 15 years, and it is going to take a bit more time for me to ferret them out from wherever they have gotten to over the years. I am working on it- trust me, I want very much to put all this contention to bed.
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  #587   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 02:52
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Rosebud Rosebud is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Humans have classic insectivorous dentition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I also did not say we had 'insectivore' teeth like bats etc.

Right. "Insectivorous" not "insectivore."

Rosebud
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Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 04:54
sailsouth sailsouth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Unfortunately the human mixed or omnivorous diet in 'recent' times- i.e., prior to today's dentistry- meant that virtually no-one had any teeth left in their head by the age of thirty. Many people, indeed most- died from abscessed teeth. Compare that to the animals whose diet is either herbivorous or omnivorous, who do not have access to dentistry- they live a full lifespan without serious problems from their dentition. Say what you like, you cannot change truth into falsehood nor fables into reality: If we eat no carbs, our teeth will outlast us- no matter how long we live.


At risk of being accused of being one of those who must "defend their strongly held myths against all comers even if it means using contradiction and illogic and untruth." - a state of mind you seem to remarkably and blissfully avoid - can I recommend the works of Weston Price who found (contrary to your belief system) upon extensive examination that remarkable dental health was a common feature of many hunter gatherer societies regardless of whether they ate an omnivorous diet (as the majority did) or a largely carnivorous one.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditi...ary_wisdom.html

Stefansson also noted this feature of those Inuit populations who did include significant quantities of vegetable matter in the diet (at least on a seasonal basis) - a feature which certainly wasn't limited to those that subsisted on meat and fish alone.

Speaking of Stefansson, he says at the end of his essay about his long term meat eating experiences "Adventures in Diet" ;

"So you could live on meat if you wanted to; but there is no driving reason why you should."

Since this is a paleo low carb forum, I'm sure you will find broad agreement that you can survive on meat alone - Stefansson proved it, your own experiences add weight to what he demonstrated. So that might explain why some here are interested to hear of any evidence that suggests abandoning a low carb omnivorous diet is either desirable or necessary.
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