Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Sat, Oct-14-17, 12:51
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default Ketone salts and high intensity exercise

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...71011091815.htm

Quote:
Ketone nutritional supplements: Good or bad for athletic performance?
Popular new ketone salts enhance fat burning but impair high-intensity exercise performance


Quote:
In the quest to improve physical performance, many athletes are turning to untested nutritional supplements. But in the case of one recently available and popular class of supplements -- ketone salts -- research from UBC's Okanagan campus suggests it may inhibit, rather than improve, athletic performance during high-intensity exercise.

"Ketone salts are relatively new to the market and there's not much research on their impact on performance," says the study's co-author Jonathan Little, assistant professor in UBC Okanagan's School of Health and Exercise Sciences. "We know from one previously published study that ketone supplements may improve long-duration endurance performance but we're interested what happens during short-duration and high-intensity workouts, like running a 10k or cycling up a hill."

"It turns out that ketone salt supplements actually impair high-intensity exercise performance."

Ketone salts work by artificially elevating blood ketone levels, similar to what happens naturally during periods of starvation, and forces the body to rely on burning fat as a fuel, explains Little. Burning fat is a more effective long-term fuel but is more complex to process and isn't as readily accessible for quick bursts of muscle activity as is a fuel like glucose.

"Elevated blood ketones seem to inhibit the body's use of glycogen, the stored form of glucose, and favours burning fat instead," adds Little. "That means that the body's quick-burning fuel cannot be accessed during high-intensity bursts of activity and athletic performance is dropping off as a result."

In his study, Little recruited ten healthy adult males with similar athletic abilities and body mass indices. After a period of fasting, they were asked to consume either beta-hydroxybutyrate ketone salts or a flavour-matched placebo, in a randomized order, and then engage in a cycling time trial. Power output on the day participants consumed ketone salts was seven per cent lower than on the day when they consumed the placebo.

"Often these supplements are marketed as a means of improving athletic performance but in this case, the research tells a very different story," says Little. "On top of that, the long-term impacts of artificially increasing blood ketone levels -- essentially tricking the body into thinking it is in a state of starvation -- is completely unknown."

"I hope this helps athletes navigate the science of supplements rather than relying on label marketing alone."


Not a horribly shocking result, though I'd like to see whether chronic use of the ketone supplement would narrow the difference. Would training while in ketosis increase the ability to dip into those muscle glycogen stores, when needed?

Also, even if this is chronic, I'm not sure how much it matters, outside of the context of sport. Somebody somewhere out in cyberspace will likely make a big deal of this and say, ketosis sucks for fitness. I'm not a mad sprinter, but at least I can sprint badly at 160 pounds, I couldn't really do anything you'd mistake for a sprint at 190. I don't really think I'm 7 percent of power output short of impressing anybody.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Sun, Oct-15-17, 07:44
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,608
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
Default

They’ve grabbed the tip of an iceberg and think it’s an ice cube.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Sun, Oct-15-17, 08:09
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Yes. I do think Little has a good point about the unknown long-term effects;


Quote:
"Often these supplements are marketed as a means of improving athletic performance but in this case, the research tells a very different story," says Little. "On top of that, the long-term impacts of artificially increasing blood ketone levels -- essentially tricking the body into thinking it is in a state of starvation -- is completely unknown."


But this also applies to the long term effect on athletic performance that wasn't really looked at in this study. I've seen people like Volek and D'Agostino talk about pretty much the opposite of what's looked at in this study--suggesting that maybe if somebody's long enough on a ketogenic diet, adding moderate amounts of carbohydrate around a performance might enhance output.

I think when it comes to the level of output where most of the energy is going to come from glucose, sprints and higher rep weight lifting, at an intensity too high for fat metabolism to keep up and too prolonged for the creatine phosphate system to be the rate limiting factor, it's really a no-brainer that people with spectacular glucose metabolisms are going to have an advantage, and perform better with uninhibited glucose metabolism.

It's entirely possible that a higher carbohydrate diet would increase my sprinting output, but in my case, a ketogenic diet increases the probability of my sprinting in the first place. A friend in his late twenties tried a ketogenic diet a few years ago, mostly I think because he thought me and my Dad had good energy levels at our ages. He was disappointed. It's hard to dig yourself out of a hole that you're not in. Talk to me in twenty years, kiddo.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Sun, Oct-15-17, 22:20
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

These subjects are not adapted, it's just one day on the stuff. We can only conclude that it's not useful as a one-day thing particularly for sprints and such. However, this:
Quote:
"Elevated blood ketones seem to inhibit the body's use of glycogen, the stored form of glucose, and favours burning fat instead," adds Little. "That means that the body's quick-burning fuel cannot be accessed during high-intensity bursts of activity and athletic performance is dropping off as a result."

is incorrect, no matter what they found in that experiment. Injecting ketones directly in the blood causes both insulin and blood glucose to drop. At first it looks like it's withholding glucose, but in fact BG drops because ketones trigger a sequence where ketogenesis is inhibited, excess glucose is stored as glycogen, then finally insulin is degraded. In the longer term, this means glycogen is actually more easily accessed rather than not. It should also apply to eating ketones too, especially since those ketones would hit the liver first.

For long-term use of that stuff, I see no problem. Supplemental ketones are very quickly used up, likely because of how ketones regulate themselves through that sequence.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Mon, Oct-16-17, 05:15
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

That is sort of the thing. The conservation of glycogen that Phinney and others suggest might be an advantage when running a marathon, avoiding the bonk, might be a disadvantage during a sprint.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Mon, Oct-16-17, 06:06
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

The context here is single dose. Can't extend any conclusion to longer term. For example, if they found that glycogen was retained, it's because of that effect I'm talking about. But then, that same effect also causes insulin to drop, which in turn allows more glycogen to be released, later in subsequent doses if done consistently, which they didn't try.

As for the bonk, it's all wrong. It's thought that we run out of glycogen, when in fact we run out of ketones (and possibly of fatty acids). Remember, it's all in the context of carbing up precisely to avoid a bonk. Well, that causes insulin to rise with every dose of carbs, often throughout a race. Each time carbs go in, insulin goes up, ketogenesis is inhibited, ketones eventually go to zero, bonk. BG can't go to zero, hypo is impossible - carbs coming in, see? Can't be because there's not enough insulin to push glucose into cells - there's hyperinsulinemia from all the carbs coming in, see? Maybe it's a form of insulin resistance, but then why does ketogenesis drop to zero and ketones drop to zero, which can only occur when the liver responds - is sensitive - to the hyperinsulinemia?

It's also possible there's something else going on. For example, we use certain drugs to manipulate cellular respiration and oxidation. If this is possible, it's because the pathways are there. Maybe it's the fight-flight response where some hormones take over, a sort of nitro boost. Glucose isn't it, it's something else, something more powerful and quicker than just oxygen. But if we disrupt normal fuel supply in such a way, we could trigger this nitro boost. At face value, we could conclude it's the glucose, but that's just the trigger for a sequence of events that leads to nitro boost.

Another thing, this:
Quote:
"Often these supplements are marketed as a means of improving athletic performance but in this case, the research tells a very different story," says Little. "On top of that, the long-term impacts of artificially increasing blood ketone levels -- essentially tricking the body into thinking it is in a state of starvation -- is completely unknown."

If they believe that's what's going on, they gotta do their homework. If the body is in a state of starvation, how can this possibly be done by eating food, i.e. a ketogenic diet? And how is it possible that starvation is anything bad, when everything runs normally to supply the body with all it needs, by releasing stored fat and stored glycogen and providing ample fuel in the form of ketones? Low-carb allows this to continue, no disruption. High-carb completely disrupts this and triggers other things down the line. Stress hormones? Check.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound contentious. Just saying it's a single dose experiment, can't conclude anything long-term from it.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Mon, Oct-16-17, 18:43
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
Lipivore
Posts: 1,208
 
Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
These subjects are not adapted, it's just one day on the stuff. We can only conclude that it's not useful as a one-day thing particularly for sprints and such. However, this:

is incorrect, no matter what they found in that experiment. Injecting ketones directly in the blood causes both insulin and blood glucose to drop. At first it looks like it's withholding glucose, but in fact BG drops because ketones trigger a sequence where ketogenesis is inhibited, excess glucose is stored as glycogen, then finally insulin is degraded. In the longer term, this means glycogen is actually more easily accessed rather than not. It should also apply to eating ketones too, especially since those ketones would hit the liver first.

For long-term use of that stuff, I see no problem. Supplemental ketones are very quickly used up, likely because of how ketones regulate themselves through that sequence.


Masterjohn put up a video about ketone homeostasis today. https://youtu.be/UYRnsxflWNw
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Mon, Oct-16-17, 21:36
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

OK, can I say Hell Yeah? It's the first time I see a professional repeat exactly what I first hypothesized about ketones regulating themselves. I was thinking I should get some credit for this, but I don't really care, I just want some progress going on instead of stagnant status quo. Also, if I can figure it out, so can anybody else. The data is there, it's just a matter of putting it together. Well done Chris. Thanks for the link RawNut.

-edit- Actually, it's not exactly what I hypothesized. Instead, Chris says ketones regulate themselves through suppression of lipolysis, not through inhibition of ketogenesis in the liver by invoking insulin and so forth. But there's a problem with that. If we produce more ketones, we shed less fat from fat tissue, but that's not what we observe with low-carb. Doesn't even make sense from a production point of view either since ketogenesis requires lipolysis to continue. Still watching the vid.

-edit- Yep, he says "likely acts on the liver to suppress gluconeogenesis or glycogenolysis", i.e. BHB is hypoglycemic.

Last edited by M Levac : Mon, Oct-16-17 at 22:07.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 05:36
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Suppression of lipolysis is relative. Ketones reduce lipolysis, but if the ketones are endogenous, by definition pretty much, ketones aren't going to be elevated unless free fatty acids have already reached a certain level. A prediction this makes is that if ketone production is somehow compromised, free fatty acids will be higher during fasting (or at least when there's not enough carbohydrate or protein or other stimulus for insulin going on to otherwise decrease lipolysis). A carnitine-fatty acid transport enzyme deficiency would do.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2557099/

Quote:
Carnitine palmitoyl transferase 1 (CPT-1) conjugates fatty acids to carnitine allowing their subsequent mitochondrial import (Fig. 2). There are three different isoforms of CPT-1 with tissue specific expression encoded by different genes: liver-type (CPT-1A) encoded by a gene on 11q13, muscle-type (CPT-1B) encoded by a gene on 22qter, and brain-type (CPT-1C) whose gene maps to 19q13. Only deficiency of the liver type, CPT-1A, has been demonstrated in humans [Bonnefont et al., 2004]. CPT-1 deficiency (OMIM 255120) is usually triggered by fasting or viral illnesses. Affected children present, usually between birth and 18 months of age, with altered mental status and hepatomegaly. Laboratory evaluation indicates nonketotic hypoglycemia, mild hyperammonemia, elevated liver function tests, and elevated free fatty acids.


With endogenous ketones, it's not that they would shut down lipolysis. It's about homeostasis. If ketosis shut down lipolysis to the point where free fatty acids decreased, the body would still need an energy source, tissues would deplete those ketones for energy, the ketone signal for decreased lipolysis would decrease, so lipolysis increases. It's not about ketones shutting down lipolysis, it's about ketones preventing excessive lipolysis.

Reduced lipolysis isn't the same as reduced fatty acid oxidation...

Quote:
Influence of beta-hydroxybutyrate infusion on glucose and free fatty acid metabolism in dogs.

Shaw JH, Wolfe RR.
Abstract
We have investigated the effect of infusion of DL-beta-hydroxybutyrate (BOHB) (30 mumol X kg-1 X min-1) on glucose and free fatty acid (FFA) metabolism by means of the primed constant infusion of [U-14C]glucose and [1,2-13C]palmitic acid. The role of the hormonal response to the ketone infusion was assessed by controlling the hormone levels pharmacologically. In one group hormones were not controlled, while in the other two groups insulin and glucagon were maintained at constant levels by infusion of somatostatin, insulin, and glucagon at constant rates. In one of these hormonally controlled groups, combined alpha- and beta-adrenergic blockade was also employed. BOHB infusion increased total ketone concentration approximately 10-fold and, when hormones were not controlled, induced a significant increase in glucagon concentration. Regardless of hormonal status, elevation of the ketone levels decreased the rate of glucose production and FFA appearance. Glucose oxidation decreased in proportion to the reduction in the rate of glucose uptake in all groups. When sympathetic activity was not blocked an increase in the percent of FFA uptake oxidized enabled the percent CO2 production from FFA oxidation to remain constant despite the decrease in FFA uptake. However, when sympathetic activity was blocked the increase in the percent of FFA uptake oxidized observed in the other groups was prevented. We conclude from these studies that an elevation in ketone levels directly affects glucose and FFA metabolism independent of changes in insulin and glucagon levels and sympathetic activity.


During starvation or a ketogenic diet, free fatty acid rise above the level needed to fuel the metabolism primarily on fat. Ketones reduce lipolysis, but that doesn't mean they compromise fat metabolism.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 08:57
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

I think I figured out why there's such a big effect on lipolysis. It's the insulin. The experiments are done on subjects eating a high-carb diet. Insulin is much higher than otherwise, we know full well the effect of insulin on lipolysis. With low insulin, the effect would be negligable. The reason for this is that ketones don't act directly on lipolysis, but instead invoke insulin for that function. Thus, the more insulin, the higher the effect; the less insulin, the lower the effect. And ketones cause insulin to drop, so the more ketones, the less insulin but doesn't go to zero likely because as Chris said ketones stimulate insulin in the pancreas to some degree.

It's like this for lipolysis in fat cells likely because it's basically the same in the liver where ketones activate (probably) insulin receptors to invoke insulin to perform the various functions in the sequence. If ketones can activate insulin receptors in the liver, they can probably activate the same receptors in all other cells. We can even extend the conclusion here where glycogen can never be depleted because since all cells have insulin receptors, so would uptake glucose as well, and with the action of insulin store that apparent excess as glycogen in those cells as well. However, since ketones cause insulin to drop, this storage would be much lower than with a high-carb diet for example, i.e. we wouldn't get the same effect we get from a carb up for example, both because of lack of dietary glucose and because of much lower insulin.

I didn't go that far with my paradigm originally but it all fits. The effects we see - their amplitude - are almost completely dependent on insulin level. If we did this on a subject who's well adapted to a ketogenic diet, we'd barely see any effect from exogenous ketones supplementation, it would be just more of the same. Also, in any subject, we can use ketones supplementation as a diagnostic tool, specifically to find out if there's some insulinogenic agent. If all is well effect is almost nil, but if all is not well the effect will show up more or less strongly. We could even use this to replace the standard OGTT to determine insulin resistance or at least uncover an underlying cause of it, and it would be completely safe unlike the OGTT.

-edit- I just realized that total lack of ketones is actually one cause of insulin resistance since based on my understanding ketones activate insulin receptors.

Last edited by M Levac : Tue, Oct-17-17 at 09:03.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 10:30
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Interesting study full of confounders and flaws. My reaction to the many quests to find the "golden fleece" of supplements/ pharmaceuticals that enable incredible athletic performance is always the same: Can't we train ourselves to maximize our physical potential by creating an optimized performance through endogenous means by leveraging natural metabolic characteristics? I believe this would be preferable to the alternative of introducing exogenous substances that might impact performance but also potentially cause a cascade of side effects, some not pleasant or healthy. We humans in the 21st century are always looking for a magic pill or substance. We've been through this quest with steroids and other substances that can really screw up one's health, see Lyle Alzado. Amazing what people are willing to ingest with no known information other than alleged performance enhancement.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 11:02
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

For Lyle Alzado, check Bennet Omalu's work on CTE. Personally, I see no plausible mechanism for exogenous steroids to cause disease, because I see no plausible endogenous mechanism, with the caveat that the stuff we inject is the same we naturally produce. On the other hand the whole idea of supplements is probably made more significant by a high-carb diet which otherwise disrupts normal physiology. So, go low-carb, run a super marathon, finish first, break records, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-17, 05:03
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
For Lyle Alzado, check Bennet Omalu's work on CTE. Personally, I see no plausible mechanism for exogenous steroids to cause disease, because I see no plausible endogenous mechanism, with the caveat that the stuff we inject is the same we naturally produce. On the other hand the whole idea of supplements is probably made more significant by a high-carb diet which otherwise disrupts normal physiology. So, go low-carb, run a super marathon, finish first, break records, etc.

That's an important caveat. "Designer steroids" mimicking natural endogenous substances were all the rage with little awareness of side effects. It's a serious risk. I would add that an overabundance of those things we "naturally" produce introduces a plausible mechanism to wreak havoc with health in general. Even a high-carb diet introduces sugar substances that the human metabolism is equipped to handle in small amounts, but when ingested in large amounts, cause major health issues. Too much of anything tends to trigger unanticipated reactions, since the metabolism interprets different conditions in these cases. Add to that the toxic substances from today's "designer whole grains" and you've got a toxic, high-risk health cocktail.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-17, 09:05
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,371
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate SC
Default

Why did he put them on a keto diet first? Is that the current MO? What happens when a person trains high carb then eats keto pills the day of the race?
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-17, 09:11
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,371
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate SC
Default

He seems to think that ketones are some type of signal to the body that it is "starving". Wait, what? Ketones are the result of starving the liver of carbs. Ketones happen AFTER one burns fat. Not before.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:15.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.