I'm confused. I've been LCing for about 6 years now, and it's always done well by me. Other than a few bumps along the way, I've been able to maintain in the low 150s for quite a long time.

Now, for no apparent reason, I'm gaining weight (166 at last look, probably at least 170 now). I'm keeping Fitday records, and they've been about 1500 calories a day, with usually around 120 grams or so of protein, around 20 to 30 grams of carbs, and the rest (good) fat.

I've had a series of thyroid tests recently, and there's probably a problem, but whether it's caused by thyroid or I have adrenal fatigue and it's affecting my thyroid, who knows.

OK, that aside.

People on this and other boards are telling me that by keeping my carbs so low for so long and my calories below "maintenance levels" for so long, it's caused both disorders. They keep saying I need carbs to convert T4 to T3 . . . or vice versa -- whatever, that's not the point here . . . what IS the point is that they say I need carbs.

So, I added carbs. I've been doing 60 carbs per day for 10 days now (still keeping the calories around 1500). I feel worse than ever. And now I discover a huge roll on my lower back that wasn't there a couple weeks ago.

What do the Eades think of this argument? I don't mean to sound naive or anything, but I trust what they wrote. From everything I've ever read (and studied during my college years and beyond in human paleontology and evolution), their stance is my stance. We didn't evolve eating grains and fruit and vegetables in abundance. A little here, a little there, and the size of those fruits and vegetables is MUCH smaller in the natural state than in the radiated genetically engineering fruits and vegetables we eat today.

I've looked it up, and the Eades mention hypothyroid really only in passing (at least in PP and in PPLP), and certainly not as a by-product of LC eating.

So what's up with all this? Am I harming my body by not eating carbs? And yet carbs make me swell up like a balloon. How can something that's good for me have such an adverse affect?

I'm really struggling with this. In the meantime, I'm chasing the thyroid demon. I'm also giving up the carbs. Back to just protein and fat for a couple days to see if I can drop this fluid I'm retaining.

What do you think?

I am no expert but I would lose the FAT
in your diet and you may lose some weight.
Of course I am not a fan of eating fat as
I am afraid I will clog my arteries, (yeh, yeh
I know, it is good fat.) But I am not hedging
any bets.

Just my two cents...

Bawdy, I have been low carbing (essentially dilettante PPLP) for two years - so I wouldn't call myself an expert - but I would say that of course you should get some detailed testing done on your thyroid function - and if there is a problem, I have heard many people have great success with medication to correct any imbalance.

Does low carb, calorie restriction or PP in particular cause the problem to arise in the first place? - I really doubt that - the causes of hyperthyroidism seem to be either an inflammation caused by some form of auto immune disorder (similar to type 1 diabetes damaging the pancreas) or medical intervention (either surgery or medication for another problem affecting thyroid output).

The only other thing that springs to mind is iodine deficiency - iodine is the precursor of the thyroid hormones. If you have all your data in Fitday, perhaps you could examine your iodine intake, and compare it to what is recommended? In any event, a urinalysis for iodine is one of the tests your doctor should run. These articles talk about the iodine issue;

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/vitamin...nt/a/iodine.htm
http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?ID=2074
http://www.pjms.com.pk/issues/julse.../article12.html

Cheers,

Malcolm

Thanks, guys. Let me clarify, though. I'm not really asking anyone to give me a reason why I'm gaining pounds lately despite exercising and eating healthy, unprocessed foods in moderation.

What I'm asking is this.

People here and elsewhere are saying the eating very low-cab for extended periods of time CAUSE hypothyroidism, and that you NEED to eat carbs.

The Eades say that NO carbs are necessary, and that you can live a full healthy life without them. Granted, you would need to supplement with certain vitamins, etc. because the protein and fat we eat today is not the "same" as our ancestors ate because we're not eating marrow, our meat isn't as fresh (I read that really fresh seal meat, for example, even contains Vitamin C, which is why the Inuits don't have a problem with scurvy and such).

And I'm not talking about NEVER eating a carb again.

Do you need carbs on a daily basis or not? Some people are saying you need AT LEAST 60 carbs at a bare minimum, and that above 100 and even up to 200 is better.

Who is right?

The Eades are!

Do these "people" venture to suggest a mechanism by which carb restriction damages the thyroid?

Cheers,

Malcolm

BTW Vitamin C is available from modern meat (particularly liver) and fish. Scurvy became a problem for sailors because they ate poorly preserved/salted meat, and vitamin C is easily lost during cooking, processing or storage.

I'm racing out the door, Bawdy, but I saw this and want to bring in two possible "caveats":

I may be wrong--please, please forgive me if my memory is shot--but I thought for at least several of these past ten days you were doing way more carbs than 60 g--weren't you attempting BFFM for several of those days--taking in at least 116 carbs, even more [up to 250?], I seem to remember your telling me (and they were bloating you and making you feel pretty bad, I think...?)

If that's true, then I would figure that the 60 gram figure is not excessive; 250 may be way more than you need (even 116, especially if you're not lifting heavy); but 60 grams seems a decent total for anyone first attempting to step out of the classic low-carb WOE. Are you certain it's been a full ten days in sequence at the 60-gram average (and 1500 cals)?

Again, if I'm wrong--if I got the dates mixed up over the past ten days--I'm sorry! I was recalling some "conversations" we had in the past ten days or so when you were taking in the larger amounts.

Second:

Of course, I can't be sure, but I would venture to suggest that these people meant that eating very low-carb for extended periods of time CAN CAUSE hyperthyroidism.

It isn't a given (as in CAUSES); it's a possible scenario. The Eades are quite right in saying that people can eat very low carb healthfully for their entire lives. But there will be some people for whom the extended carb deficit will impede conversion of T4 to T3--and in some cases even suppress secretion of T4. Not everyone, by any means--but it can happen. Considering the symptoms you've recently described (re thyroid/adrenal issues), you may be one of them. Or you may not. You haven't been diagnosed.

I don't think it's a matter of what's right or wrong, white or black. Unfortunately, figuring out the best way to nourish our bodies is both individual and evolving--even when we (think we) find the solution, it can likely change within a period of time (months? years? who knows) for no reason or for very significant (stress-related, usually) reasons.

So I know you're looking/hoping to get advice on what to do right now to stop this gaining trend, and to feel better--and you'll get lots of advice, that's for sure! But the only way you'll know for sure what's best for you is...yep, you know.

All the advice, all the suggestions, all the guidelines...they all work for some people, even though--taken together--they conflict! It's just that they don't all work for everyone. You'll have to find the one that will work for you.

Damn--wish it were easier than that.

XXXXXXXX

Many women's thyroid hormone levels start going a bit wonky when they start perimenopause or menopause or start taking hormones or changing brands. Could this be the problem?

For me, eating more carbs was not the solution, more protein & fat was. I start gaining at >50g ECCs/day and only lose at <40g. I've been on (& off) Atkins & PP for nearly 5 years and have carefully added carbs in 5g increments to determine my CLL according to DANDR on four occasions & could never get above 50g net carbs - have you determined your CLL & CLM? Some people can get to 60g or higher, some never get above 30g net carbs, it depends on the individual.

In Mike Eades' blog a month or so ago he cited an article saying that those who ate 100g protein per day lost faster than those who ate less (they all ate the same amount of carbs). Bumping my carbs from 81g (my PPLP target) to 100g broke my last plateau.

Have you tried cycling calories without increasing carbs (i.e. eating more protein &/or fat)? High fat (65-70%) on my lower calorie (1200-1300) days keeps me satisfied. If I eat 60g carbs on 1300 calories, I'll be hungry & craving sugar in no time.

This is a question I'd like to understand better, too. Schwarzbein seems to think (I haven't read her books, just picked this up from other people) that keeping your carbs too low can contribute to burning out adrenals. Anthony Colpo (the Omnivore ) says in his LC FAQ that some people have trouble with gluconeogenesis, and therefore don't do well on very low carb levels. In the FAQ in Staying Power the Eades say that some people are especially sensitive to ketones and therefore feel shaky and can't sleep at low carb levels. Another one I haven't read, but have seen discussed is the Potatoes not Prozac theory that if carbs are too low it interferes with serotonin production.

I've looked for info on this because I just feel bad at very low carb levels, but haven't really found a conclusive answer. I suppose the closest to your question would be the Schwarzbein view - maybe you should post a question in that section of the board and see what her followers have to say?

First, to answer all the questions regarding my situation, though I what I was really looking for was a discussion of "you need carbs (and my thought here was 60 to 100 per day)" or not.

Malcolm, you bring up the good point that liver has Vitamin C. But who the heck wants to eat liver?

Sona, I didn't look up when I started talking about BFFM, but my Fitday started the "new" levels on the 23rd, so it has been 10 days. I was planning on shooting for 116 carbs on most days and then bumping it up to 200 once or twice a week, as recommended. The highest I eer got was 96. And although I didn't enter my numbers every single day of the past 10 days, I averaged 1633 calories, 77 grams fat, 70 grams carbs, 146 grams protein (so I wasn't too far off on my guestimates).

And true, I shouldn't have said that some people say LC eating causes thyroid problems, but that it could. I do have a problem with people citing things as cause-and-effect when no such exact relationship exists.

And you mentioned that I'm looking for a reason for my gaining trend, but again, that isn't the intent of this thread. I just mentioned my recent history as a way of getting into the subject.

And you're right, of course, in that no one thing will work for everyone. I didn't mean to whine in this thread. Just looking for peoples' opinions.

Deirdra, yes I'm of "that age" (turned 50 this year), so it could be the menopause thingy. I've been on BC pills full-time (no placebos, no periods) for about 4 or 5 years now. So, yes, that could have something to do with it as well.

I've tried about every combination of ratios, cycling, etc. there is. I'll just keep plugging along.

Really, I'm not looking for answers to my current situation here.

That said, up until the past several months, I've done very well on low carbs. I don't believe I've been on very low carbs every single day for the past 6 years. If I were, I'd probably be closer to 136 than 166 today. (Or, make that 168, since I've gained another 2 pounds in the past 10 days.)

Good discussion, though.

I'm just surprised to find that if so many people are being diagnosed with hypothyroid problems from eating LC (and there are certainly a LOT of them), why wouldn't the Eades have put some kind of caveat or warning OR AT LEAST MENTION it in one of their first two books?

And, then does this mean that a significant number of our paleo ancestors were hypoT because they ate low carb?

I mean, if eating low carb were so natural (and I believe it is, don't get me wrong), then why the heck are so many people getting sick from it?

Again, the cause-and-effect thing. Sorry. I don't even like it when people say that smoking causes cancer. It CAN cause cancer. Plenty of smokers die of plenty of other things and never get cancer. (BTW, I'm not a smoker nor do I advocate smoking. Just saying.)

I started having thyroid problems when I was ultra-low-FAT (10-15%) dieting for 10 years, and perimenopause made it worse, but it was low-carb high-fat eating that got me OFF the thyroid (& HRT) drugs.

When I was following McDougall & Pritikin BBs, there were huge numbers of hypothyroid people frequenting them. Are your LC friends following South Beach or otherwise limiting fat intake?

Hormones are stored in fat, so it isn't surprising that hormone levels would drop as you lose fat, but if you don't drop fat too fast and end up with a normal amount of fat, I don't see how you'd end up with abnormally low levels of hormones for your age. It is common for women who carry most of their fat in their breasts, hips & thighs to have higher than average hormone levels. So perhaps what you are experiencing is a lowering of hormone levels into the normal range.

Bawdy.....I'm sorry if I steered you in the wrong direction with the BFFM stuff. Maybe, that plan works well only for younger bodies!! I learned a lot from the book but personally did not implement any of the recommended dietary suggestions. I have done well on PPLP and follow the adage "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it". Anyhow, to respond to your inquiry regarding hypothyroidism and low carb diets I have not read anything about this relationship. However, being an inquisitive person I did a quick Google search and found the following from Dr. Loren Cordain's ("The Paleo Diet) website:
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/faq.htm

Do you have any thoughts on whether long-term use of a traditional ultra-low-carb diet can interfere with thyroid function?

I would be strictly speculating here because I believe there is no direct clinical evidence. However, one of the major problems of the ultra-low-carb diets are that they yield a net metabolic acidosis because there is insufficient alkaline base (only derived from fruits & veggies) to neutralize the net renal acid load that the kidney must deal with from a high-meat diet. As I have pointed out in question 2, there is some evidence that a net metabolic acidosis may elicit a mild primary hypothyroidism and hyperglucocorticoidism.

Is your plan suitable for someone with a hypothyroid condition?

It depends upon the nature of the problem underlying the hypothyroid condition. If hypothyroidism stems from a tumor or specific metabolic disorder, then diet will be of little consequence. If the hypothyroidism stems from general ill health and is of an unknown etiology, then there is considerable evidence to suggest that the diet I have outlined may be therapeutic. Hypothyroidism has been frequently observed in Type 2 diabetics and may result partially from the endocrine changes that result from insulin resistance. Additionally, in animal models, low dietary protein can elicit low serum thyroxin levels. Further, millet (a common dietary cereal grain) found in the diet of Africans is known to be the underlying cause of endemic goiter in these people. Also, hypothyroidism occurs frequently in celiac patients suggesting that there may be an immune interaction with the gliadin fraction of wheat and the thyroid gland. Finally, a diet that produces a net metabolic acidosis (ala the standard grain, cheese, and salt-laden western diet) has also been associated with mild primary hypothyroidism and hyperglucocorticoidism.

Taken together this information suggests that a diet that is high in protein, of a low glycemic load, contains no cereal grains and produces a net alkaline load to the kidney may be of therapeutic value. Guess what -- these nutritional characteristics describe The Paleo Diet to a T!

Alas, no direct answer to your question but a little more info.

Andy

Is yogurt permited on the PP plan?

Andy, I had read BFFM before you mentioned it, and had even given it a half-hearted attempt a while back but didn't like the way I felt eating that many carbs. <aside: and WHY didn't I remember this when I recently tried it again?>

Interesting info on the Paleo diet. I've looked at that numerous times, and while I am drawn to it, I do like my dairy.

Still pondering everything.

Soulmate, a better place to post questions like this is to start a new thread in the Protein Power page (so they don't get lost). But yes, you can have yogurt on PP. About the only thing you can't have is sugar and white flour.

Sure, just count the carbs, and in the beginning aim for no more than 10 g net carbs per meal/snack.

The first part suggests that they think that "ultra-low-carb" is synonymous with little/no veggies and high-meat. PP/PPLP is MODERATE protein, and my carbs are mostly from veggies, 8-9 cups per day, and I avoid grains (they aggravate my asthma) so that may give me a net alkaline load.