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  #61   ^
Old Sat, Oct-25-08, 22:48
ProfGumby's Avatar
ProfGumby ProfGumby is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,927
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 361/285.0/240.0 Male 5'11"
BF:Shake Hands w/Beef
Progress: 63%
Location: In Da U.P. eh? Menominee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
The bodybuilding community still believes in the Positive Caloric Balance hypothesis i.e. a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. Their advice to gain muscle is: Eat more. This forum is dedicated to low carb diets and as such we're a little more informed on the subject so we would be the first to consider that advice as naive if not completely wrong.

Carbohydrates drive insulin drives fat accumulation. This fundamental principle is the simplest explanation of how we grow fat. Bodybuilders don't escape this mechanism in the least. In fact, the classical method to grow muscle is to eat more regardless of macronutrients, grow fat because of the high carb content, then cut by cutting total calories (which invariably cuts total carbs) again regardless of macronutrients all the while lifting heavy weights. In other words, even as they lift the bar i.e. exercise, they grow fatter. It's called the bulk/cut method. Do you want to grow fat? If not, then don't follow this advice.

The advice to eat more carbs comes from the fact that protein requires insulin to be used by cells. Since carbs also require insulin and more insulin would logically improve the amino acids uptake by cells, eating more carbs would then be the logical thing to do to gain more muscle. The problem with this logic is that it doesn't take into consideration insulin resistance. This builds over time such that cells simply refuse to take in any more insulin. At that point, the only thing that grows is fat tissue because it's the last tissue to become insulin resistant. It can take years like it can take weeks.

Carbohydrates serve only one purpose and that's fuel. It can't be used for repair or maintenance or any other purpose than fuel. Fat can be used for fuel, repair, maintenance and building blocks of cells, sterols production such as cholesterol and subsequently testosterone, and various tissue with the main tissue being the brain. Protein can be used for fuel, repair, maintenance and building blocks of cells and various tissue with the main tissue being muscles. Vitamins and minerals are used in every step of fuel utilization, repair, maintenance and building blocks and there are many more better alternatives than eating carbs to get those.

So yes, it's entirely possible, perhaps even easier, to grow muscle while in ketosis.


It worked for Arnold,Lou Ferigno and A lot of others
back in the day. There is a web site I visit once in a while that has lots of info-

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/becker25.htm (This link talks about diet)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/becker26.htm
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  #62   ^
Old Sun, Oct-26-08, 04:32
Bru88's Avatar
Bru88 Bru88 is offline
Rock'in Arizona!!!
Posts: 4,343
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 470/400/300 Male 6'7"
BF:
Progress: 41%
Location: Arizona
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yOu just bring the fresh crab anytime!...Bru
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  #63   ^
Old Sun, Oct-26-08, 04:44
Bru88's Avatar
Bru88 Bru88 is offline
Rock'in Arizona!!!
Posts: 4,343
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 470/400/300 Male 6'7"
BF:
Progress: 41%
Location: Arizona
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Vince Gironda sure sounds like Atkins to me! With one serving of fruit a day added. Thanks for the info and links ProfGumby. Back in the day late70's early 80's I used to work out with all the animals at the Detroit Power House Gym. Most of those guys where living on Roasts and steak, they weren't worried about lean protein. Plus usually 6-12 eggs a day, even back then most body builders knew the egg was a perfect food....Bru
PS At 6'7" 325 pounds with 18 1/2 inch arms a 62" chest 44" waist that was one of the few places in my life I felt small. Almost every one of those guy where on the juice, and where ungodly huge. I never did use steroids, saw to many guys get stupid on them!
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  #64   ^
Old Sun, Oct-26-08, 08:40
Bru88's Avatar
Bru88 Bru88 is offline
Rock'in Arizona!!!
Posts: 4,343
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 470/400/300 Male 6'7"
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Lisa just read some research that was done on super slow; http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sup...t-training.html
It will be fun to do a test on myself to see how effective it is. After reading this I think I will do an 8 week cycle of slow burn, then an 8 week cycle of 5X5 power lifting. Just to see which adds more muscle. I will continue to use my elliptical through both programs. This should be a fun experiment. Found out they offer Slow burn about 3 hours from me. I will try it on my own first, but its nice to know there is instruction near enough.
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  #65   ^
Old Sun, Oct-26-08, 11:08
awriter's Avatar
awriter awriter is offline
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Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Kwasniewski Ratios
Stats: 225/158/145 Female 65
BF:53%/24%/20%
Progress: 84%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bru88
just read some research that was done on super slow; http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sup...t-training.html
It will be fun to do a test on myself to see how effective it is. After reading this I think I will do an 8 week cycle of slow burn, then an 8 week cycle of 5X5 power lifting. Just to see which adds more muscle. I will continue to use my elliptical through both programs. This should be a fun experiment. Found out they offer Slow burn about 3 hours from me. I will try it on my own first, but its nice to know there is instruction near enough.

Bru,

Went to the link, but the research there is pretty old. A much more recent (and scientifically intense) study was done in Austria. I read about it in the NY Times, Googled the author, emailed, and was sent the actual study itself, which I'm pasting here for everyone to read. As you can see, the study was done on older women with no weight-training history, but not only do the results speak for themselves, there is nothing in the study to suggest that it would not apply to any average person (as opposed to a top athlete training for a particular sport, for instance).

On a personal anecdotal level, I can state that now, mid-way through my 10th week, I am beginning to see a definite speed-up of benefits. Yesterday's training session was amazing (bigger increases of weight yet the ability to complete all 6 reps doing the weight for the first time, which has never happened before), my weight gain has leveled off, and my body fat reduction is so remarkable now, that this morning I put on a size 12 jeans that I was unable to even zip two weeks ago - and they are actually LOOSE on me! So length of time doing Slow Burn does seem to play a real part in the process.

I intend to continue for another 6 weeks (making it four months in all), while adding in Martin's suggestion for HIIT (4 minutes of 20 second sprints/10 seconds of rest) on a gym bike -- and then I'm going to go back to deep Water Walking (using my amazing weight/fat burning Water Walkers) for 2 months, while keeping up the HIIT. Then it will be back to Slow Burn for another 4 months. That will take me through next Spring - and I'll see where I am at that point. My experience suggests that 8 weeks isn't really long enough to start seeing the total results, so if you like it, you might want to double your estimate before switching and measuring.

And now, the study (though w/o the tables; the author was not able to include them in the .doc):

Quote:
SuperSlow or Hypertrophy Resistance Training: do they affect skeletal muscle mass and strength differently?

Foditsch E.E.1, A. Obermayer 1, P. Steinbacher 1, W. Stoiber1, J.R. Haslett1, S. Ring-Dimitriou2 and A.M. Sänger1

1: Department of Organismic Biology, Vascular and Muscle Research, University of Salzburg, Austria
2: Department of Sport Science and Kinesiology, University of Salzburg, Austria

Introduction:

One of the most conspicuous physiological changes of the human aging process is the progressive decline of muscle mass, strength and quality in combination with lower resistance to muscle fatigue. This change is termed sarcopenia (Doherty 2003, Macaluso & De Vito 2004, Edström & Ulfhake 2005, Marzetti & Leeuwenburgh 2006). Between the ages of 20 and 80, the loss of human skeletal muscle mass is approximately 20 – 30% (Carmeli et al. 2002, Edström & Ulfhake 2005). Causes for the loss of skeletal muscle power consist in a combination of muscle atrophy (loss and selective atrophy of fast type II fibers) and a reduced synthesis of muscle proteins such as myosin heavy chain. Moreover changes in muscle quality such as a fibre switch from fast twitch to slow twitch fibres can be observed (Welle et al. 1993, Larsson & Ansved 1995). Intracellular changes and altered biochemical mechanisms may not be overlooked. A reduction in the number and function of mitochondria (Greenlund & Nair 2003) and alterations in enzyme activities and impaired glucose metabolism leads to a reduced energy production in aged muscles which results in a lower muscle power, fatigability and reduced physical activity (Welle et al. 1993, Carmeli et al. 2002, Greenlund & Nair 2003). All these losses of the skeletal muscle system contribute to altered patterns of activity and have important implications for functional mobility and disability which can lead to falls and fractures in older humans (Doherty 2003).

This study now is part of a larger study examining the influence of different modes of physical activity on age-related changes of the musculoskeletal system in middle-aged women. Here, two strength- training methods (Hypertrophy and SuperSlow Resistance Training) are employed to test, if a specific training for older adults can reduce or reverse the patterns of sarcopenia and lower the risk of falls and fractures as well as lead to a higher quality of life in old age and furthermore, to increase our understanding on the age-related degenerative processes in the skeletal muscle system.

Methods:

Nineteen healthy women, aged 45 – 55, participated in this training study. The subjects followed the activities of daily life with no athletic history. All women underwent a thorough interview and a physical fitness testing prior to the first training unit. Maximum oxygen uptake (VOmax), maximum muscle force and muscle mass of the M. vastus lateralis were assessed to facilitate grouping, optimal training regiment and determination of the dominant leg. The subjects of the present study were assigned to either common Hypertrophy (HTR) or SuperSlow Training (SST). The training period lasted 12 weeks with 3 training sessions per week with focuse on the M. vastus lateralis. A training session lasted 50 min. with 5 min. warm up at the beginning. Both strength training groups performed the same exercises (multi-joint and single joint exercises). The HTR group had a repetition maximum of 60-80% with 3-5x 12-15 repetitions. The SST group had the same repetition maximum with only 1x 4-8 repetitions. Muscle biopsy samples were taken before (A) and after (E) the 12 - wk training period from the superficial region of M. vastus lateralis (approximately mid - shaft) of the non - dominant leg by means of a percutaneous needle biopsy (3 mm, Bergström technique). Samples were chemically fixated in 2.5% glutaraldehyde, postfixed in 1% OsO4 (3h at RT), dehydrated in a series of ethanols and embedded in Epon 812 epoxy resin. Semithin sections (1-1.5 µm) were stained with azure II-methylene blue and digitally photographed through a Reichert Polyvar microscope. Relative volumes of muscle, connective and adipose tissue and blood vessels were assessed by point counting stereology using a square lattice test system (Weibel 1979). Ultrathin sections (70-90 nm) were mounted on 75 - mesh copper grids, contrasted with 0.5% uranyl acetate and 3% lead citrate in a “Leica EM stain” autostainer and viewed in a Zeiss EM-910 transmission electron microscope.

Four fibres (two of each fibre type, I and IID) were photographed. Classification of fibre types was carried out using characteristics such as muscle fibre seize, capillary supply, amount of lipid droplets visible in low magnification and amount of mainly subsarcolemmal mitochondria in high magnified details.

42 micrographs (unbiased sampling, evenly distributed both at subsarcolemmally as well as more centrally located sites) were sampled for each fibre type. Volume densities of myofibrils, mitochondria, lipid droplets, glycogen granula, sarcotubular system and capillarization were determined stereologically as described above.

With regard to the above mentioned variables differences due to the training interventions (HTR vs. SST) were analyzed using a paired t-test and considered significant at P £ 0.05.

Results:

Light microscopical results show that women having a smaller baseline ratio of muscle tissue exhibit a significantly better response to both training interventions. Connective and adipose tissue as well as blood vessels did not differ significantly.

With respect to training mode the SuperSlow method positively affects muscle mass at the expense of connective and adipose tissue to a greater extent than the hypertrophy method (Table I).

On intracellular level the analysis of the various cell components demonstrates the following (Table II and III):

The myofibrillar content of type I muscle fibres declines with both modes of resistance training (thereby to a greater extent with the SuperSlow regime) whereas it levels off in type IID fibres (with even a light increase with the SuperSlow mode). Both fibre types significantly increase their mitochondrial content and with it their aerobic capacity. In type I fibres this is mainly due to both a highly significant increase of the intermyofibrillar mitochondria and the hypertrophy mode of resistance training. In type IID fibres both subpopulations of mitochondria contribute to the overall increase of the mitochondrial amount. Furthermore, this training effect on mitochondria may point to a fibre shift towards type IIA. The energy source in the form of lipid droplets significantly decreases in type I fibres (mainly due to the hypertrophy mode of training), indicating the utilisation of another energy source than lipid such as glycogen to meet the aerobic synthesis of ATP. With both training regimes as a whole the lipid content in type IID muscle fibres is unaffected. However, with the SuperSlow mode there is a slight increase of this energy source indicating its further usage for energy production and positive influence on the lipid metabolism. Once again, this too may be seen as an indication of fibre transformation. With respect to glycogen as alternative fuel and bearing in mind the issue of quantitative analyses with the presented method, an increase mainly with the hypertrophy regime may be observed. Together with the former the hypertrophy regime seems to bank mainly on glycogen as an energy source. Finally, due to the SuperSlow regime the sarcotubular system increases in type I and decreases in type IID fibres, indicating a fibre shift toward IIA.

In conclusion the SuperSlow mode appears to be more effective than the common hypertrophy resistance mode in:

i) replacing connective and adipose tissue by muscle tissue

ii) maintaining muscular strength (myofibrillar content slightly increased in type IID fibres, moderate decline in type I fibres)

iii) increasing the aerobic capacity in both the type I and type IID fibres (subsarcolemmal mitochondria increased in both fibre types)

iv) positively affecting the lipid metabolism (even and slight increase of lipid in type I and type IID muscle fibres, respectively).

The SuperSlow method of resistance training appears to be an effective approach for the everyday use to increase aerobic capacity without suffering the loss of muscle strength.

References

CARMELI E., R. COLEMAN & A. Z. REZNICK (2002): The biochemistry of aging muscle. Experimental Gerontology. 37: 477-489.
DOHERTY T. J. (2003): Aging and sarcopenia. J Appl Physiol. 95: 1717-1727.
EDSTRÖM E. & B. ULFHAKE (2005): Sarcopenia is not due to lack regenerative drive in senescent skeletal muscle. Aging Cell. 4: 65-77.
GREENLUND L. J. S. & K. S. NAIR (2002): Sarcopenia-consequences, mechanisms, and potential therapies. Mechanisms of Ageing and Development. 124: 287-299.
LARSSON L. & T. ANSVED (1995): Effects of ageing on the motor unit. Prog.Neurobiol. 45: 397-458.
MACALUSO A. & G. DE VITO (2004): Muscle strength, power and adaptations to resistance training in older people. Eur J Appl Physiol. 91: 450-472.
WEIBEL E. R., G. S. KISTLER & N. F. SCHERLE (1966): Practical stereological methods for morphometric cytology. J Cell Biol. 30: 23-38.
WELLE S., C. THORNTON, R. JOZEFOURICZ & M. STATT (1993): Myofibrillar protein synthesis in young and old men. Am.J.Physiol. 264: E693-E698.
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  #66   ^
Old Sun, Oct-26-08, 12:34
Bru88's Avatar
Bru88 Bru88 is offline
Rock'in Arizona!!!
Posts: 4,343
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 470/400/300 Male 6'7"
BF:
Progress: 41%
Location: Arizona
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Thanks for the study Lisa, like I say I can't wait to see which workout builds more muscle. This should make it fun and keep it interesting. It will also keep me strict on the diet. Was down in the weight room this morning. Moved all my diet & exercise books to a shelf down there. Moved my computer work station into another room. Played with my machine, I think I like the feel of the squats better on the new machine than on my hack squat. I will have to keep my hack squat because I can probably do the stack at only 260 pounds, my hack squat will take 1500 pounds. Still need to set up speaker system, but every thing is clean and green to start tomorrow. Will weight, record my body fat, take measurements, and start the first workout. It sure is nice to know there are instructors with in 3 hours of here if I need it. Thanks again for posting the study, now its almost time for some self discovery! Talk to you soon....Bru
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  #67   ^
Old Sun, Oct-26-08, 16:01
awriter's Avatar
awriter awriter is offline
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Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Kwasniewski Ratios
Stats: 225/158/145 Female 65
BF:53%/24%/20%
Progress: 84%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bru88
Still need to set up speaker system, but every thing is clean and green to start tomorrow.

Bru - quick note: the Slow Burn centers do not allow music of any kind, which I think is fantastic and wish I could do at the Y. They say - and I agree - that super slow takes such incredible concentration, especially in terms of keeping very, very accurate counting the seconds and reps, that music is just distraction. My suggestion is to at least begin with no music and see how it goes.

Lisa
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  #68   ^
Old Sun, Oct-26-08, 16:05
Bru88's Avatar
Bru88 Bru88 is offline
Rock'in Arizona!!!
Posts: 4,343
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 470/400/300 Male 6'7"
BF:
Progress: 41%
Location: Arizona
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Yep thats why I need to put the speaker system on the computer tonight, so I can use an online metronome! Thanks Lisa
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  #69   ^
Old Wed, Oct-29-08, 21:15
cingular cingular is offline
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Plan: *
Stats: 150/165/200 Male 6'
BF:8
Progress: 30%
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check out the CHA diet
Carb Haters Anonymous

There is a thread over on bodybuilding.com forums

www.scivation.com has the pdf with the book.

Bottomline, lean body mass can be added on no carbs with adequate protein and surplus of calories.
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  #70   ^
Old Fri, Oct-31-08, 13:41
awriter's Avatar
awriter awriter is offline
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Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Kwasniewski Ratios
Stats: 225/158/145 Female 65
BF:53%/24%/20%
Progress: 84%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cingular
Bottomline, lean body mass can be added on no carbs with adequate protein and surplus of calories.

Adequate protein - absolutely. Calorie surplus required? Not so much. I eat a calorie deficit nearly everyday. And I'm packing on the muscle with no problem just the same.

Since I am losing pounds of body fat at the same time, I'm going to guess that my high fat, moderate protein and low carb WOE is feeding my growing lean muscle mass, while getting whatever other energy is required for them by raiding the tummy pantry. Which is just fine by me.

Lisa
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  #71   ^
Old Fri, Oct-31-08, 22:43
kbfunTH's Avatar
kbfunTH kbfunTH is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,240
 
Plan: UDS
Stats: 199/190/190 Male 69
BF:12%/11%/6%
Progress: 100%
Location: Pflugerville, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awriter
Idiotic, isn't it. Because the opposite side of that coin will be that you MUST put on weight if you consume more calories than you expend. And we all know that isn't true. Eat high fat and low carb, and the mechanism that drives fat accumulation -- insulin -- is unable to function, regardless of calorie count.

Martin posted this link to an experiment done last year to prove it:

http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/ftopic813-0-asc-0.php

Jeff's BMR was 2200. For 30 days he ate between 2000 - 3000 MORE calories than that, in the form of high fat/low carb. Poor guy had to resort to drinking quarts of heavy cream a day just to do it. And little to no exercise.

A solid month. I think he ate something like 72,000 SURPLUS calories by the time he was done. Upshot? He lost a pound.

Ah, yes . . . the so-called 'experts' know it all, don't they.

Lisa


and you just blindly believe this?
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  #72   ^
Old Fri, Oct-31-08, 22:45
kbfunTH's Avatar
kbfunTH kbfunTH is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,240
 
Plan: UDS
Stats: 199/190/190 Male 69
BF:12%/11%/6%
Progress: 100%
Location: Pflugerville, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awriter
Adequate protein - absolutely. Calorie surplus required? Not so much. I eat a calorie deficit nearly everyday. And I'm packing on the muscle with no problem just the same.

Since I am losing pounds of body fat at the same time, I'm going to guess that my high fat, moderate protein and low carb WOE is feeding my growing lean muscle mass, while getting whatever other energy is required for them by raiding the tummy pantry. Which is just fine by me.

Lisa


you will not always be able to gain muscle mass while in a calorie deficit. for a little while, maybe, but that will stop at some point.
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  #73   ^
Old Mon, Nov-03-08, 09:22
awriter's Avatar
awriter awriter is offline
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Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Kwasniewski Ratios
Stats: 225/158/145 Female 65
BF:53%/24%/20%
Progress: 84%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbfunTH
and you just blindly believe this?

Um... as opposed to what?
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  #74   ^
Old Mon, Nov-03-08, 09:31
awriter's Avatar
awriter awriter is offline
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Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Kwasniewski Ratios
Stats: 225/158/145 Female 65
BF:53%/24%/20%
Progress: 84%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbfunTH
you will not always be able to gain muscle mass while in a calorie deficit. for a little while, maybe, but that will stop at some point.

Muscle mass gain while eating anything would stop at some point, since I'm:

a: A post-menopausal woman, and
b: Have no testosterone, and
c: Am not on steroids, and
d: I am not planning on running for Ms-Old-Universe

Saying that the muscle gain will stop 'at some point' is like saying that low carb diets don't work because if you stop eating low carb, you'll just gain back all the weight you lost.

I'm not sure what your point is. You made a clear categorical statement: "you can't gain muscle mass while in a calorie deficit" -- yet for the last three months I've put on POUNDS of muscle mass while eating a calorie deficit.

Either your statement is true, or it is false. I've proved that it's false by gaining a lot of muscle mass while eating a calorie deficit, your 'well, it won't be false forever' equivocation not-withstanding.

Lisa
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  #75   ^
Old Mon, Nov-03-08, 14:15
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbfunTH
and you just blindly believe this?


Here's the problem with personal experience. Either you believe it completely or you don't believe any of it. You can't, for instance, believe only part of his story, then use this to try to dismantle the rest, then consider your conclusions correct. That would be an exercise in futility. If you accept any part, you must accept all of it. If you accept that he weighs 168lbs at the beginning of his experiment, you can't simply refuse his claim that he still weighs 168lbs at the end because that implies you believe him when he claims that he ate all these calories in between. See?

There is nothing that indicates he has a reason to lie about his experiment. So yes, I do believe blindly. In fact, blindly is the only way I can believe him because I wasn't there. His experience is easy to test, just do it yourself. There's nothing to it.
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