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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Dec-25-12, 23:47
VeganJules VeganJules is offline
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Posts: 8
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 135/132/125 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
Default Wheat free LC vegan

Hi! I just started my LC diet last week. I'm on a ketogenic diet (high fat) just to jump start my fat loss. I'm finding that I'm eating tofu everyday with an occasional tempeh thrown in with veggies sauteed with coconut oil. Any suggestions on other proteins? I'm avoiding wheat and grains so seitan and other meat subs are out.

Thanks.
Jules
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Dec-26-12, 08:04
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,245
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I got nothin' for you. I would be worried that you might not be getting enough quality protein, any K2, B12, DHA/EPA Omega 3's. There are plant sources, but they're inadequately converted or useless for humans.

Have you considered becoming a vegetarian?
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Dec-27-12, 08:46
VeganJules VeganJules is offline
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Posts: 8
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 135/132/125 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I got nothin' for you. I would be worried that you might not be getting enough quality protein, any K2, B12, DHA/EPA Omega 3's. There are plant sources, but they're inadequately converted or useless for humans.

Have you considered becoming a vegetarian?


I was vegetarian for over 20 years before going vegan. I should explain that I don't feel I lack protein but that I'm looking for something more substantial, more hearty to have as my main course. Veggies don't fill me up enough. Kale, broccoli, spinach and other plants have more protein than meat. Protein is in EVERYTHING so I never concern myself with it.

When I lose the last few pounds, I'll go back to eating legumes, some grains, and fruit. I'm just staying away from these in the short term to lose weight.

Thank you for replying, Nancy.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Dec-27-12, 08:52
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganJules
Kale, broccoli, spinach and other plants have more protein than meat. Protein is in EVERYTHING so I never concern myself with it.



You might want to double check your sources on that. Kale, broccoli and spinach are mostly cellulose, starch and sugar, with small amounts of protein. I'm surprised they leave you hungry if they are mostly protein. How many grams of protein do you take in each day?
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Dec-27-12, 08:56
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,245
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

They're not complete proteins though. We're made out of protein and fat and there's a tsp of carb in our blood at any given time, which we can make out of... you guessed it... protein. There's only a few amino acids we can synthesize, so if we don't get enough of any particular one, we can have some real issues.

I guess nuts and seeds might give you what you need.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_(nutrient)

You might find this interest. The Protein Leverage theory. Our sense of fullness isn't tripped until we consume enough protein.

Quote:
Their mathematical model was formed from data in animal studies that found various insects and mammals regulate total consumption of food around protein requirements - in poor protein environments, excess is consumed to meet requirement, and in protein rich environments too little is consumed to meet energy requirements. Their emphasis was that protein - what we tend to ignore in our diets because it remains fairly constant - is prioritized over fat and carbohydrate, and the changing dietary landscape of foods provides for less protein, leading to over consumption to meet requirements.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Thu, Dec-27-12 at 09:08.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Dec-27-12, 12:14
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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I'm with Nancy to check on the quantity of quality protein. What numbers are you going from, that you feel it couldn't be a lack of protein? A keto diet takes more protein for your target weight than other diets.

I know kale has as much protein as top sirloin, calorie for calorie. The issue is being able to eat ENOUGH greens, or non-dense plant protein sources. From your stats, and Phinney's guideline for a low range of protein for a keto diet, you would need 105 grams of complete protein a day. Split into 3 meals, that is 35 grams of protein per meal, which would take 18 cups of chopped kale per meal.

The other thing to think of is enough fat, and saturated fat. have you tried coconut oil to increase the fat? or avocado? or coconut meat to get the protein too?
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Dec-27-12, 14:36
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
I know kale has as much protein as top sirloin, calorie for calorie. The issue is being able to eat ENOUGH greens, or non-dense plant protein sources. From your stats, and Phinney's guideline for a low range of protein for a keto diet, you would need 105 grams of complete protein a day. Split into 3 meals, that is 35 grams of protein per meal, which would take 18 cups of chopped kale per meal.



I think you may be overly generous, Seejay. When I look at Fatsecret's stats (based on USDA), it shows 100 grams of kale having 10 g carbs (2 of them are fiber), 3.3 grams of protein and 50 calories. In order to get 35 g of protein, you'd need to eat 1060 grams of kale (that's 2.33 lbs), which would also work out to be 106 grams of carbs and 530 calories.

On the other hand, 100 grams of sirloin contain 0 grams of carbs, 19.92 grams of protein and 214 calories. In order to get 35 grams of protein, you'd need to eat 175 grams (6.15 oz) of sirloin, which would total 0 carbs and 376 calories. You'd be getting a generous 21 g of healthy fat with that as well, assuming the steak is trimmed to 1/8 inch of fat. And you'd have room for a reasonable portion of kale, say 100 g.

Last edited by Liz53 : Thu, Dec-27-12 at 17:41. Reason: correct error
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Dec-28-12, 09:54
VeganJules VeganJules is offline
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Posts: 8
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 135/132/125 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
Default

The other thing to think of is enough fat, and saturated fat. have you tried coconut oil to increase the fat? or avocado? or coconut meat to get the protein too?[/QUOTE]

I have increased my coconut and olive oil intake. I'm doing the ketogenic diet so I'm less concerned with protein volume than I am with good fats.

I don't ever concern myself with adequate protein. Most Americans get too much of it. Our physiology is similar to that of other herbivores (jaw structure, intestines, acidity in the stomach, teeth, etc.). Our bodies make our own amino acids (as with carbs). Primates (most similar in digestive structure), elephants, giraffes and all the large herbivores get their protein from plants. Clearly most of you know your biochemistry better than I but I'm just not convinced that we NEED to get our protein met from animal meat.

I'm not trying to have a debate on ethics and I agree that I would feel more full consuming bulk protein (like tofu). Once I've completed my weight loss (just a few more to go), I'll resume my more balanced diet and include more fruit, nuts, and some legumes. I know that I'll lack nutrients if I stay on a keto diet for too long.

Thanks for your input, everyone.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Dec-28-12, 09:58
VeganJules VeganJules is offline
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Posts: 8
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 135/132/125 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
You might want to double check your sources on that. Kale, broccoli and spinach are mostly cellulose, starch and sugar, with small amounts of protein. I'm surprised they leave you hungry if they are mostly protein. How many grams of protein do you take in each day?


I average 50-65 grams of protein a day (based on MyFitnessPal). I'm trying to get most of my calories from fat.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Dec-28-12, 11:52
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

I don't think anyone here would say that you HAVE to eat animal protein. Like many others here, I was a vegetarian (never vegan) when I was younger. I was also pudgier than I am now.

We don't make our own amino acids from carbs but we can combine component amino acids in incomplete proteins to make complete protein. Unfortunately most of those incomplete protein sources are also significant sources of carbohydrates which many of us cannot handle. Good luck!
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Dec-28-12, 12:50
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 29,974
 
Plan: SBD->atkins twist->paleo
Stats: 274/000/160 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 240%
Location: NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganJules
I average 50-65 grams of protein a day (based on MyFitnessPal). I'm trying to get most of my calories from fat.

Don't forget to add avocadoes to your daily menus...they are high in fat, as are olives.
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Dec-28-12, 13:30
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeganJules
I'm doing the ketogenic diet so I'm less concerned with protein volume than I am with good fats.
Reason I think your protein might be low - If you are having 50-65 g protein on a ketogenic diet, some of that protein is being turned into the bare minimum glucose, then your body might still be hungry for protein for repair. Especially if the protein has missing essential amino acids (the ones we can't generate).

it's a different way of thinking about protein with a keto diet - adding extra protein for gloconeogenesis along with the regular protein for rebuilding.
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Dec-28-12, 15:08
VeganJules VeganJules is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 135/132/125 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judynyc
Don't forget to add avocadoes to your daily menus...they are high in fat, as are olives.


Oh olives!!! I haven't thought of that! Thank you!

Last edited by VeganJules : Fri, Dec-28-12 at 15:53.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Dec-28-12, 15:13
Robin120's Avatar
Robin120 Robin120 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,013
 
Plan: low carb
Stats: 171/125/145 Female 5'9
BF:
Progress: 177%
Location: DC
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Hey there! Was veg for 14 years, including 4 of veganism.

I was lowcarb for 7-8 of those years.

I mus admit I don't have to worry about what i eat nearly so much now that i eat fish/poultry.....

but, here are some menu ideas- best of luck!

breakfasts:
1. tvp oatmeal
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/br.../tvpoatmeal.htm
2. celery with peanut or almond butter
3. tofu scramble
4. smoothies made with tofu, almond or coconut milk, truvia, ice, and unsweetened cocoa podwer- optional nut butter
5. make a hot cereal with ground flaxmeal and maybe pumkpin and cinnamon
6. muffins made with almond four- just need an egg sub- maybe mashed tofu?

lunch and dinner:
sounds like you have a good start.....i would focus on soups, stews, salads, roasted vegetable and tofu/ seitan kabobs

I would encourage you to look at /south beach instead of ketogenic- it's much more veg friendly and allows beans even in stage 1
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Dec-28-12, 15:15
VeganJules VeganJules is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 135/132/125 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
I don't think anyone here would say that you HAVE to eat animal protein. Like many others here, I was a vegetarian (never vegan) when I was younger. I was also pudgier than I am now.

We don't make our own amino acids from carbs but we can combine component amino acids in incomplete proteins to make complete protein. Unfortunately most of those incomplete protein sources are also significant sources of carbohydrates which many of us cannot handle. Good luck!


Hi... I'm aware that our bodies produce amino acids and carbs naturally (not that we get protein from carbs). I've also read that more current studies indicate food combining (due to the lack of complete amino acids) has been refuted and that for as long as we eat a variety of natural foods, we should be okay. It's so confusing- there are so many contradictory findings. The more I learn about food science, the more confused I am!!

Thank you for your encouragement!!
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