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  #1   ^
Old Sat, Sep-01-07, 15:43
MeeMee729's Avatar
MeeMee729 MeeMee729 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 139
 
Plan: low rutabaga / high pizza
Stats: 666/333/111 Female 15 feet,  29 inches
BF:110%
Progress: 60%
Default how much protein is "adequate" but not "excessive"?

Thank you Larry for answering my question about how much protein is "adequate" but not "excessive".

So you're saying 111 grams of protein daily for me?

Thank you.
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, Sep-01-07, 17:52
LarryAJ's Avatar
LarryAJ LarryAJ is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 702
 
Plan: PP/PPLP
Stats: 150/140/140 Male 68 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeeMee729
So you're saying 111 grams of protein daily for me?
Actually, that is the minimum per day, per PPLP, for your height and current weight. You CAN eat more than that, but I think that the Drs. Eades did not mean you can eat unlimited protein. (If ElleH reads this she can confirm that over eating protein will stall weight loss.) So, like many other things, moderation is significant. As a rough estimate of where the upper limit for protein intake should be, I would expect it to be less than twice the minimum daily intake for an AVERAGE person doing an AVERAGE amount of physical exertion in their daily living. OF COURSE, there will be EXCEPTIONS. The problem, as I understand it, with excess protein is that it converts to glucose something that needs to be strictly restricted. This conversion to glucose is then why too much protein can stall weight loss.

The tables in PPLP or the calculations in PP are meant to cover the average person, but there will be those that need more and those that need less. You have to "work" at finding the right levels of protein and fat, plus supplements that may be needed to meet those needs, that will do what you want, loose, maintain, or maybe even gain. In this day and age, your health is not something that just comes free like the sunshine or rain. You need to educate yourself about what gives you good health - a HARD job because of all the advice that is all about someone making money and nothing about your health, the cholesterol/statin issue is a prime example.

I am quite pleased to see that you are well read, with ONE exception. “Drum roll”; cue PPLP lecture - You need to have Protein Power Lifeplan in your library! The two books are sort of like Yin/Yang in that while different they are the same plan. Just from a different view in each book. Thus you get a fuller view/understanding of the PP/PPLP WOL. I also like to point out that PPLP, being written 5 years later than PP, has newer research behind it and shows that the Drs. Eades will modify the plan as needed consistent with new valid research. If you want to see the bibliography for PPLP, I have linked to it in this forum. Do a search on just this forum and you should find it. If you don’t let me know.

I hope to see participate more in this forum.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Sep-03-07, 23:42
MeeMee729's Avatar
MeeMee729 MeeMee729 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 139
 
Plan: low rutabaga / high pizza
Stats: 666/333/111 Female 15 feet,  29 inches
BF:110%
Progress: 60%
Default

Thank you so much, Larry, I really appreciate the info and advice!
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Sep-04-07, 13:21
ElleH ElleH is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 10,352
 
Plan: PP/Atkins Maintenance
Stats: 178/137/137 Female 5'6"
BF:28%
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

I'll tell you that whole "how much protein" stuff is so very confusing to me.

I totally understand the concept of the minimum amount. Although I confess to being confused as to whether my minimum is actually the older PP calculation (lower) or the newer PPLP table chart (higher).

As to the question of how much is too much, I find that to be the MOST confusing. The books say in several places that the number is only a minimum, and you can eat more if you're hungry. They say that excess protein can be turned to glucose, but not to worry about it. However they also say if you're not losing, to eat only the protein minimum. The one time I asked Dr Mike about protein intake (as it related to IF), I got a very vague answer of "eat plenty of protein." Not exactly what I was hoping for!

As far as my own experience with protein intake, I can lose to about what I weigh right now eating as much protein as I "want," or about 100-150g a day...some days more, some days less. In the past I've lost more if I cut protein (and fat) to the protein minimum--I was better able to deal with hunger back then. Today if I try to cut protein to the minimum requirement, even if I keep fat very very high, I start getting hunger, dissatisfaction and I start binging.

If anyone ever unlocks the 'answer' to this...I would sure LOVE to have it.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Sep-07-07, 03:57
karrier's Avatar
karrier karrier is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 397
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 265/231/130 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 25%
Location: HavelockNorth New Zealand
Default

I found this and it may help. It is from Barry Groves.
This is basically Eat Fat, Get Thin in a nutshell.

First of all, you need to figure out your lean body mass. There are calculations in Protein Power or google on the net and find a good formula.
After you have found that, then you divide it by 2.2 to get the kilograms of
weight. Then you multiply that number of kilograms by 1 to 1.5 grams to find the correct amount of protein grams that your body needs each day.

For example, if my lean body weight is 100 pounds..divided by 2.2, then it is 45 kilograms. Multiply that by 1 which equals 45 or 1.5 which equals 67 grams. So, my range should be between 45-67 grams if I am not a bodybuilder or an athlete..Men will have a higher number, of course.

Once your protein requirements for the day is figured out, then Barry says
you can eat up 60 healthy veggie carbs/dairy (and a bit of fruit, if you wish) to stay in ketosis...Everyone is different on the ketosis. Barry says that you don't have to be dark purple, but you need to feel the effects of ketosis (no terribly hungry all the time).

Fat is what does that for you. The fat in your meat and dairy will help to
satisfy your hunger. Olive oil and coconut oil are also great fats to consume.

Your percentages should be 15% carbs/20%protein/65%percent fat..These are ballpark figures.

Some people cannot eat 60 carbs (these aren't net carbs), so they will go lower on the veggies.

Barry and his wife eat larger breakfasts and lunches and have a smaller meal in the evening.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Sep-07-07, 09:25
ElleH ElleH is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 10,352
 
Plan: PP/Atkins Maintenance
Stats: 178/137/137 Female 5'6"
BF:28%
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

Well that is interesting, but if I ate 45-67 grams of protein a day, I would be knee-deep in a binge by the second...possibly the third day. Even if my fat is 150g per day (or more) I will still get hungry on that low of a protein intake. I've tried it before and it didn't control my appetite. The only thing I didn't try was increasing the carbs with the low protein and high fat. The Optimal Diet says to eat about 50g per day (total carbs) and I see the Groves diet says to eat 60 (is that total or net carbs?)

At least on PP/PPLP my minimum ranges from 70-81g per day, and that's not enough to keep my appetite under control. 100g seems to be about my minimum. Again, that's with carbs at 20g. I really don't know what would happen if I increased my carbs and decreased my protein. I can say that on the days I eat more veggies, I don't feel as "satisfied" with my meals.

That is the *one* variable I haven't tried on the LC diet, actually, unless you count the few months I did the Zone (pretty low in fat), and was starving all the time. Maybe I will give the Groves or a proper OD a try (with higher carbs...).

As I said, it's very confusing.
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Nov-19-07, 17:44
herselfNYC's Avatar
herselfNYC herselfNYC is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 82
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 315/234/190 Female 5'8"
BF:Quite
Progress: 65%
Location: New York City (Manhattan)
Default

What constitutes 50 grams of protein? Ie, how many eggs, pieces of steak, whatever, in a day would you be eating to get that?

I confess I'm not worrying about min/max on the protein so I haven't looked into that. Yet.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Nov-19-07, 17:52
ElleH ElleH is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 10,352
 
Plan: PP/Atkins Maintenance
Stats: 178/137/137 Female 5'6"
BF:28%
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

About 8 or 9 eggs, about 7 ounces of beef.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Nov-19-07, 18:19
herselfNYC's Avatar
herselfNYC herselfNYC is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 82
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 315/234/190 Female 5'8"
BF:Quite
Progress: 65%
Location: New York City (Manhattan)
Default

Thanks, Elle.
Then I doubt I'm overdoing the protein myself.
I typically eat one egg with some cheese and 3 or 4 strips of bacon for breakfast, then maybe half a pound of sliced roast beef or less at lunch, and so on ... nothing really huge at any one sitting. For me I think the thing I need to curb more is the cream, because I do like coffee multiple times a day and I like coffee to be "light" rather than dark or black. Maybe I should try to wean myself back to drinking it darker. Of course a nice creamy coffee will also kill my appetite for a couple of hours, which is the upside I guess.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Nov-22-07, 09:15
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,324
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

81g is my PP minimum but I feel best on ~100g protein; if I eat more I often feel more "peckish" than usual - perhaps I start converting the excess over 100g to glucose. I am very carb sensitive and can't eat more than 35g ECC without feeling hungry and on the verge of losing control. So I don't. The other reason for not eating more than 100g protein is the cost. I top up my calories with fat, which is usually cheaper and more satiating.
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Nov-22-07, 09:53
ElleH ElleH is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 10,352
 
Plan: PP/Atkins Maintenance
Stats: 178/137/137 Female 5'6"
BF:28%
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

I asked about this in the other thread...but I'm following you around. Too bad I can't PM you!

So I gather you do ~100g protein? Do you count only meat/animal sources or *all* sources in that 100? I have found that ~100 is about the least I can get by with, also.

And I see you do 35g net carbs? Can you tell me what it usually comes to in total carbs? I use total carbs.

And I assume you just use pure fats to top off your total? I remember you don't do dairy.

You do no grain, no sugar, right? What are the typical sources of your carbs? Induction-type veggies? Nuts? Berries? Starchy veggies? Wine? Legumes?
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Nov-24-07, 14:35
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,324
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

Hi Elle,

I lost track of which thread that was on but will try to answer these and your other questions about typical meals here since this forum doesn't move as fast. I do no grain, no sugar, no soy, minimal casein, and wine & legumes occasionally (~2 times a month). Fat comes with my protein, and then I top up with coconut oil, olive oil, avocados, olives, nuts and nut butters. I have a problem with PB causing cravings for vast quantities, so I don't keep it in the house (I'll buy just the amount to put in a recipe if I need it). I have no problem limiting macadamia or almond nut butter, so I suspect the PB thing is due to it being a legume.

I aim to get my minimum protein (81g) from animal sources & the rest comes from whatever else I eat, totaling an average of 100g/day. I aim for up to 30g net carbs (ECCs) and can go up to 35 before I start getting hungry with cravings. My carbs mainly come from induction veggies, nuts & berries, & the small amounts in eggs, heavy cream & full fat cheese (the only dairy I eat since high fat dairy has minimal casein). If I'm making a casserole or slow cooked meal, I will add a few higher carb veggies like carrots & turnips to add to the texture & taste, as long as I don't go over 10g net carbs per serving.

I do live a different lifestyle - the kids are grown & out of the house and my SO works out of town 3-5 days a week, but eats like me when he is here, occasionally adding potato, rice or pasta to go with what I make. Because these things stuff up my head within 30 minutes, they no longer interest me.

I aim for <30g net carbs, 100g protein & the rest is fat (my average for the past year was 72% fat, 21% protein, 7% net carbs). I start my day with a weigh-in and open my DietPower software to enter breakfast and start thinking about what to eat the rest of the day. Since I take my lunch to work, I prepare lunch and breakfast (and sometimes dinner if I am really busy) simultaneously. If I’ll be home for dinner, I plan most of my full day’s food in the morning. If I’ll be going out to dinner, I aim to get 50g protein and up to 15g ECC in the first half of the day.

A typical breakfast is 2 mugs coffee each with 1/2T heavy cream, 2 eggs, ~1.5oz of cheese, half a sausage, 1T butter & some herbs (I buy cheese & sausage on sale & pre-package indivual servings in snack baggies & store them in the freezer in one big freezer bag).

Lunches on the go are a can of sardines in mustard sauce or beef jerky + 2oz nuts. Otherwise I have a big salad with canned tuna/salmon or leftover meat/poultry and 3T mayo or full fat salad dressing. I cook big roasts and put leftover meat/poultry/fish in individual servings in the freezer too.

Most of my weekday dinners are made totally or partially in advance. An easy one is to steam some raw or frozen veggies with one of my servings of frozen meats & then top it all with butter, ghee or oil. I have a big stainless steel pot with a steamer insert & once the water starts boiling, the veggies are steamed & the frozen pre-cooked meats are ready in ~10 minutes; I even do this for guests - more time to socialize and everything stays moist. Other dinners are one-dish meals that I invent as I go and make in advance and freeze the leftovers in individual servings. When I go shopping I typically buy whatever meat/fish/poultry items are on sale that week (after carefully perusing the flyers in the newpaper) and some veggies that would go nicely with them. I either roast the meat plain or design a casserole around the leftover roast meat or the raw meat I’ve bought. Then I use DietPower's recipe function to put together things like a) ground lamb w/spinach, cauliflower, tomatoes & greek spices b) chicken soup w/ lots of chicken & veggies. I use the protein content of the meat to decide how many ~25g protein servings I’m making, then add in veggies until I’m up to ~7g ECC/serving, then I add fat to get each serving up to a satiating amount of fat & calories.

My meals add up to ~1650 cals & then I have room for decadent comfort foods (~300 cals); I think this is what cured me of “emotional” eating. My favourites are homemade chocolate/coconut oil bark made with nuts & stevia, hot cocoa made w/heavy cream & stevia, 1-2T of macadamia nut butter, or some nuts (I always have nuts in the office & car so that I never get caught with nothing to eat when I need something). Rather than snarfing down my comfort foods, I like to take a 5-10 minute break to savour them in silence & often close my eyes to clear my mind, relax and de-stress. It is amazing what a mere 5 minutes can do.

My SIL has 5 & 8 year olds & has adopted many of these methods for breakfast & lunch. She still tends to cook dinners from scratch most days, but now cooks extra and plans ahead what to do with the leftovers so that she gets at least 2 nights “off” a week.
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  #13   ^
Old Sun, Nov-25-07, 10:09
ElleH ElleH is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 10,352
 
Plan: PP/Atkins Maintenance
Stats: 178/137/137 Female 5'6"
BF:28%
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

Hi Deirdra,

Thank you SO much for taking the time to answer all that! It's about what I expected, b/c it's exactly what I was doing when I got down to 137. I wish that this had solved my emotional issues with food, but I guess it hasn't. Thanks again. It's helpful to see what I should be doing again.
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  #14   ^
Old Tue, Dec-11-07, 16:52
tammay tammay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 538
 
Plan: Vegetarian Low GI
Stats: 188/179.8/125 Female 5'1"
BF:
Progress: 13%
Location: Israel (temporarily)
Default

I also find the concept of adequate vs. excessive protein a bit confusing. I plan out my menus and according to Fitday, my plannd menu is at 100-110 gr protein, which seems very high to me. It's interesting that I've tried to go vegan for the last year and even as a vegan, I found that around 80-90 gr of protein a day was good for me (but the 150+ gr carbs wasn't ). I guess I'm just a high-protein person.

I do worry, though, that I might be getting too much. I'm a vegetarian, so a lot of my protein comes from dairy and soy. I have noticed, though, that with lowcarbing I usually don't end up eating everything I plan (I like 5-6 mini meals rather than 3 big meals and snacks, so that might be one reason that my protein is so high). So I probably get closer to 90 gr a day.

But I've experimented with raw vegan diets which had me at (shudder) 25 gr protein a day!!!

Tam
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Dec-13-07, 17:41
CindySue48's Avatar
CindySue48 CindySue48 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,816
 
Plan: Atkins/Protein Power
Stats: 256/179/160 Female 68 inches
BF:38.9/27.2/24.3
Progress: 80%
Location: Triangle NC
Default

My goal is at least 100 grams each day. I average 135. Protein, in my opinion, is very important and only a problem for a few with certain diseases/conditions. If you are insulin dependent you may have to watch your protein intake, and liver disease (late stages only, protein doesn't cause liver disease, but a damaged liver cannot remove the ammonia that is a result of protein metabolism) and kidney disease (for at least 15 years I've been seeing articles that question this too) are also cause for watching protein intake...otherwise eat as much as you want!

The dangers of an inadequate intake is far worse than eating too much! And having a higher intake may just save your life. High intake means higher albumin blood levels, which means a better survival of a serious injury or illness! Also, the older you get, the more important the albumin level becomes.

I'm not sure where protein got to be a bad guy, but the "conventional wisdom" is that we need a lower intake, but in the past protein was encouraged! I grew up hearing that I had to "get my protein" at mealtimes. Today, however, "excess" protein is felt to be a bad thing.

For someone my age, I should only get about 45grams of protein a day....that is way too low! I often get that in 1 meal! This is the reason, I think, that Atkins is often referred to as "high protein"...because compared to the recommendations of experts, it is!

I eat my protein, and get the fat that goes with it. I get almost all carbs from fruits and vegetables, with a little from dairy and nuts most days. So far I've never gone over 200 grams in a da, but I've come close.
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