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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Aug-15-03, 07:24
westsnoop westsnoop is offline
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Posts: 37
 
Plan: body opus
Stats: 256/235/200
BF:
Progress: 38%
Location: Michigan
Default Ketosis question

It's a pretty widely held belief that ketogenic diets are great for preserving muscle but poor for adding it, and that when you lift in ketosis you are weaker than when you are working with glycogen. But there are cultures that have lived without carbs for a good part of every year. Their children grew, and the adults led pretty rugged lives. So are the widely held beliefs myths if you eat meat and fat at maintenance levels?
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Aug-19-03, 09:37
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Alopex Alopex is offline
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Posts: 551
 
Plan: Hypoallergenic diet
Stats: 117/112/- Female 64"
BF:
Progress:
Location: Toronto
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Hi Westy!

I think that in such cultures people have adapted to being in ketosis. And eating at maintenance can certainly sustain muscle. In fact, those people ended up at the end of their carbless season with all their muscles intact and ready to go. But ideal conditions for muscle development include plenty of carbs and higher than maintenance calories (which is not to say that people in those cultures are incapable of gaining mass--they probably can).

I'm not sure if this is what you're asking, but Lyle has a little section in his book on CKD and mass gains. You can't gain much mass at maintenance calories; you'd need 10-20% above that (18-20x bodyweight in lbs) for the LC week. And the carb-up should be lengthened to 48 whole hours, with high GI foods eaten in the first 24, lower GI in the second 24.

He also mentions using TKD parameters around workouts and having mid-week carb-ups as other ways of maximizing anabolism during CKD.

But you do gain some fat when you bulk.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Aug-19-03, 15:53
ManoOPUS ManoOPUS is offline
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Posts: 1,599
 
Plan: CKD - TKD
Stats: 270/265/240 Male 70 in
BF:
Progress: 17%
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Actually the key to muscle gain is high amts of protein in your diet, regardless of your diet. I've known many athletes that eat whatever they want but they make sure the get more than enough protein to sustain muscle growth. I've noticed that after long periods of CKDing, I get bored with the workout that it recommends. So I decided to increase my intensity level at the gym and have found that I've actually gained muscle. I'm not really watching my calories (being on a CKD is a form of calorie restriction) but I am mindful of when and how much protein I'm getting in a day's time. I didn't think that I could add that much muscle but after about a month of experimenting, I've noticed my bodyweight has dropped only slightly while my lifts have increased. I'm definitely not saying that this is true for everyone and I'm not sure how long this will last but it definitely worked for me.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Sep-13-04, 16:16
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cantorious cantorious is offline
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Posts: 66
 
Plan: body opus
Stats: 166/131/125 Male 68"
BF:10%
Progress: 85%
Location: L0S ANGELES
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You can build muscle on ketogenic type diets. I was on anabolic diet for about 6 months and never gained more muscle in my life in that time frame. Anabolic diet is similiar to body opus except it wasnt as detailed. 20-25x Body weight= your calorie intake. Your carb intake mon-fri sshouldnt go over 20-30 (varies for different people). Dipasquale the author says the only thing that changes in this diet from bulking to cutting is the amount of calories which means you would eat less while cutting and more on bulk of course. From January 2004 - mid May 04' i went from 135lbs to 170lbs, my arms grew about 2 inches, i added about 50lbs to my bench and about 100lbs to my squat so in fact you can gain plenty muscle on these diets you just have to up the calories.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Sep-15-04, 08:57
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believer1 believer1 is offline
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Posts: 17
 
Plan: my own version
Stats: 189/162/170 Male 5 feet 9.5 inches
BF:
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Cantorious:

I'm curious as to changes in your bodyfat during this phase...Putting on 35 pounds in a little more than 4 months sounds reasonable, and something I'll be looking to do very shortly but how much of it was fat???
Thanks.
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Sep-15-04, 09:12
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Built Built is offline
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Posts: 3,661
 
Plan: Metabolic Surge
Stats: 170/139/? Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Canada's Wet Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by believer1
Cantorious:

I'm curious as to changes in your bodyfat during this phase...Putting on 35 pounds in a little more than 4 months sounds reasonable, and something I'll be looking to do very shortly but how much of it was fat???
Thanks.



35 pounds in 4 months! Sigh! It's just SOOOO different for boys!

I put on 10 pounds in 4 months last year on my bulk, and I MIGHT have gained 2-3 pounds of muscle. I know the bang-for-buck is a LOT higher for men.

I'll be interested to see how it works out for you believer1.

Good luck with your upcoming bulk.

Hey, that should be a Hallmark card!
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Sep-15-04, 09:42
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mle_ii mle_ii is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 427
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: // Male 69 inches
BF:27%/21%/15%
Progress: -27977%
Location: Redmond, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Built
Good luck with your upcoming bulk.

Hey, that should be a Hallmark card!


oh man that is great!

Yeah, bulking up is difficult, even for guys. It's gotta be the calories and protein, that's what I'll keep telling myself. Next cycle of lifting I'm going to go nuts with the calories and protein to see where that gets me.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Sep-16-04, 07:56
cantorious's Avatar
cantorious cantorious is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 66
 
Plan: body opus
Stats: 166/131/125 Male 68"
BF:10%
Progress: 85%
Location: L0S ANGELES
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by believer1
Cantorious:

I'm curious as to changes in your bodyfat during this phase...Putting on 35 pounds in a little more than 4 months sounds reasonable, and something I'll be looking to do very shortly but how much of it was fat???
Thanks.


Beleiver,
Bulking up is really an artform, you want to go over you're maintenance calories but not too high becuase you'll get too much fat spillover (20-25xbodyweight for calories depending on metabolism). Out of those 35 lbs I'd say about half of it was fat and the other half muscle. Considering I could of done soo many things much better (after doing research on ketogenic diets at this forum) the gains weren't all that bad. DiPasquale, the author of Anabolic diet said to eat between 20-30 grams carbs during the week a day as a limit but i understood it as if I should eat 20 grams of carbs a day.My carbups consisted of mostly junk food (pizza, cheesecake, cookies, cereal etc) and beer, the carbup ratios for anabolic diet were 60%carb30%fat10%protein, after doing CKD it makes more sense to make these ratios 60-75%carb20-25%protein and the rest fat because when your insulin level is high, fat storage is increased so wouldn't eating more fat during the carbup phase contribute to more bodyfat? Also it would make more sense to boost protein intake past 10% during carb-up to take advantage of glucose transport to starving muscle cells correct me if i'm wrong. My bodyfat level at 135 was like 12% and when I got to 170 it was about 20% I beleive. I'm near done in my cutting phase and I'm about 7% bodyfat at 135lbs soo im back at the same weight I started at but i'm about 5% less bodyfat so i guess thats ok but if I did my carb-ups like i'm doing em now on CKD I'm sure I would of Gained more muscle and less fat but oh well I learned my lesson that a carb-up isn't just binge junk food time, i wish I would of known that before. Hope that answers your question
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-04, 18:32
believer1's Avatar
believer1 believer1 is offline
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Posts: 17
 
Plan: my own version
Stats: 189/162/170 Male 5 feet 9.5 inches
BF:
Progress:
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A 50/50 muscle/fat ratio isn't good enough for me. I'm looking for the all-elusive 'lean bulk'. I've added only 140 calories a day in the form of flax or olive oil and will see how it goes. I've also reduced my gym time from 6 (yeah, count-em, 6) days to 4. I started 159 lbs. at 6%. I'm 5' 9". It's only been two days so not much to report.
If any of you are interested, I'll report back periodically.

Built: yeah, you should consult Hallmark about that sentiment.

Cantorious: You are correct. A refeed should be mostly carbs with moderate protein and minimal fat (as little as possible). At my weight and level of bodyfat, I refeed twice a week and get 600 grams of carbs and 185 grams of protein with only about 20 fat grams. At least this is what works for me- at least while trying to lose bodyfat. Now that I'm trying to put on some size I don't know if I should high-carb it three times a week or just increase my calories the other five days.

Any thoughts?

Last edited by believer1 : Fri, Sep-17-04 at 18:39.
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, Sep-20-04, 15:55
cantorious's Avatar
cantorious cantorious is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 66
 
Plan: body opus
Stats: 166/131/125 Male 68"
BF:10%
Progress: 85%
Location: L0S ANGELES
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Beleiver,
A 50/50 muscle to fat ratio isn't all that great, but its not that bad considering how i messed up in soo many ways especially through most of my cutting cycle. I didn't eat junk food during all my carbups, i started eating mostly FRUIT and vegetables because i'd thought it was better. Later I educated myself and foundout Fruits were a NONO so i made mistakes which I did learn from, but i learned from them so its all gravy. The Anabaloc Diet by Mauro Di,Pasquale is meant to keep you in 10% Body Fat year around while gaining muscle. Since it's made for bodybuilders, you gotta consider these guys cut down to like 4% BF which is something you can do on this diet by the way, after contest time it comes time to bulk up and you gradually gain about 2lbs a week until you hit that 10% bodyfat mark, then you start cutting down losing around 2lbs a week till you get into contest shape but this time you end up with more muscle, this is the cycle to keep you in that 10% or less bodyfat year around. Ending up at 20% bodyfat wasnt something i wanted to do, but keep in mind i was 135 (5'7) with like 12% BF, i was already skinny so i didnt wanna cut up i wanted to bulk. Keep the following factors in mind; at very best my carbups consisted of lots of fructose which only repairs liver glycogen stores (dipasquale didnt go into detail on the carbups), I didn't start my carb-up till saturday afternoon instead of right after my friday workout like i do now to take advantage of muscle sensitivity to insulin, at one point i was eating too much over maintenance so i got too much fat spillover. 50/50 fat gain isn't really as bad as it sounds, if you're starting out at 6% bodyfat like how you are and gained 20lbs and that was half muscle you'd still be low bodyfat because the muscle cancels out some of that fat gain since its all percentages with muscle and fat. But let me answer your question before this post gets any longer,
"Now that I'm trying to put on some size I don't know if I should high-carb it three times a week or just increase my calories the other five days."

I suggest finding out you're maintenance calories first, add about 100 cals a day to that, trust me when the week is up it will make a difference, your goal with this should be to mess around with this addition of calories until you're gaining atleast 1.5-2lbs a week, oh and always weigh yourself at the same time every week because you know how the scale can fluctuate. If you've been having success with your carb-ups dont change them, one thing i would reccomend is doing a mid-week carbspike since you're bulking up. Midweek carb-spike is just you consume a decent amount of carbs lets say wednesday, since youre still doing high fat dieting I recommend doing this right after youre mid-week workout with a PWO drink of protein/dextrose but it's better if you use a mixture of Protein and50/50 dextrose maltodextrin. You can get great results with just the dextrose don't worry bout the latter and since its real fast burning sugars you should jump back into ketosis quick in due time. When bulking also mess around with youre protein intake, getting about 1.5 per lb of bodyweight is good. Also and i'm sure you know this, but the more frequent you eat the more efficient use of the food you consume. You must place a high priority on eating well consistently. Once you’ve missed a meal, it’s gone forever. You can’t make up for that missed meal by eating two at the next scheduled time because the body can only assimilate so much food at one sitting. The excess will be wasted. When you miss a meal, you lose an opportunity to help your body grow muscle. The more of those crucial opportunities you miss, the less likely you’ll be to reach your bodybuilding goals. Also i've been reading alot and some really good advice I read about trying to find out how much protein to eat, is too put a higher emphasis on how much protein you consume in a 2-3 hour window instead of how much you consume throughout the day.
Why? If you eat your daily total, let’s say, of 300 grams of protein in four meals as opposed to eight, the efficiency of how your body digests that protein would differ, wouldn’t it? If you take those 300 grams of protein and divide that total by four meals, that would equal 75 grams per meal. Those 300 grams of protein divided by eight meals equals 37.5 grams per meal. Obviously, your body will have a much easier time digesting the 37.5 grams per meal than it would 75 grams. You are eating the very same amount of protein for the entire day—but are creating a big difference in the efficiency of its digestion and utilization. Your body would have a much easier time using the protein to help build muscle if it was spaced out evenly throughout the day. Every two to three hours creates what I call a “Protein Consumption Window of Opportunity.” The more of these opportunities you take advantage of, the more you will augment your efforts in the gym. The more you consume high-quality protein during these windows—regardless of the amount of protein in that “window” or daily total of protein you think your body needs—the more muscle you will build. The key to successfully building muscle is eating smaller, more frequent meals throughout the day. Instead of worrying about that often-debated daily total of protein, break it down into two-hour to three-hour increments. The guy who eats eight meals as opposed to four meals a day has twice as many “Protein Consumption Windows of Opportunity” to take advantage of. Four a day, times seven days a week, equals 28 more “windows.” Every month that’s 112 more and every year the total grows to 1,344 more “Protein Consumption Windows of Opportunity” that are used. Of course everyone has a different schedule and very few people have the time to eat every 2 hours, I know I dont but the more frequent you eat the more efficent. I hope that was helpful Beleiver, don't forget to do some heavy deadlifts or squats to really gain some mass and don't worry bout putting on a lil fat either. Good Luck with your bulk and any other questions are welcomed. peace.
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Sep-20-04, 17:28
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believer1 believer1 is offline
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Posts: 17
 
Plan: my own version
Stats: 189/162/170 Male 5 feet 9.5 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Cantorious: Thanks for the response. I didn't mean to imply anything negative towards you regarding your bulk. It's just, for me, I enjoy being lean. I've worked very hard to get here and know it's easy to go the other way very quickly. That's why I decided to take it slow and gradual so bodyfat levels don't get out of control.
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  #12   ^
Old Tue, Sep-21-04, 01:25
cantorious's Avatar
cantorious cantorious is offline
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Posts: 66
 
Plan: body opus
Stats: 166/131/125 Male 68"
BF:10%
Progress: 85%
Location: L0S ANGELES
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yea I know, no harm done bro. I'm not gonna do it like that this time, instead of bulking up for long periods . Im gonna bulk up for short periods and cut for short periods, that way you look good all year around. But yea if you watch your ratios closely then you shouldnt gain too much fat but you will gain some. Oh and don't take weightgainer powders, those convert to fat really easy and contribute to most peoples bulk fat
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