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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 12:51
HappyLC's Avatar
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Default Professor Tim Noakes has diabetes

Professor Tim Noakes was diagnosed with diabetes after three months on a lchf diet. How is this possible?

Quote:
You were diagnosed diabetic three months into your diet. Critics say that proves your diet doesnít work, and caused your diabetes?

Thatís unbelievable logic: if you do one thing Ė eat a high-carb diet for 33 years Ė then change it for three months, what you did for the previous 396 months is irrelevant. In other words, the diabetes epidemic is from everyone across the world suddenly eating high-fat diets. So, letís get back to facts: my father died of Type 2 diabetes which puts me at a 10-fold increased risk. Unfortunately, for 33 years, I followed Diabetes Association guidelines that said as long as I exercised and ate a high-carb diet, Iíd never get diabetes. They were very, very wrong.


I admit I don't know much about diabetes, but from everything I've read about lchf, I thought it would reverse insulin resistance and prevent type 2 diabetes.

Resident smart people....help?

http://www.biznews.com/health/2014/...diet-dangerous/
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 13:02
gonwtwindo's Avatar
gonwtwindo gonwtwindo is offline
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Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 164/162.6/151 Female 5'3"
BF:Sure is
Progress: 11%
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Default

Diabetic here. LC is not going to correct 33 years of pushing your genetic switch to flip. If you knew you were genetically predisposed, and followed the diet from childhood...then maybe.
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 13:05
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
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Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Could it be his blood sugar was vastly worse before he started the diet? I don't know many people who don't have a pretty sizeable drop in A1c after going low carb that started with it high.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 13:31
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is online now
Posts: 19,311
 
Plan: ~VLC/~dirty primal
Stats: 520/377/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 84%
Location: Ozarks USA
Default

I never even heard of a person who did not vastly improve.

However, he could be vastly improved and still be diabetic.

Did he have an exam just before he went on the diet?

PJ

Last edited by rightnow : Fri, Feb-13-15 at 14:47.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 13:50
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Default

http://www.idiabetesblog.org/2013/0...s/#.VN5gWPnF8aA

Quote:
The other problem was that I was following that diet and getting progressively slower in my running and fatter and ultimately developed type 2 diabetes, which I realized somewhat later and then I had this epiphanous moment when I decided something had to change and I fortunately was exposed to the low-carbohydrate work of Dr. Jeff Volek and his colleagues and one day I decided, okay I am doing so badly eating all these carbohydrates surely I canít be worse, letís cut the carbohydrates and turn to a high fat diet as provided by Dr. Volek; so I did that and the results were dramatic. I lost twenty kilograms of weight and I subsequently decided I had type 2 diabetes and needed treatment, but my diabetes is quite well-controlled on Metformin and this low-carbohydrate diet and then I realized I had to say sorry that I have been misleading people for so long telling them to eat the high carbohydrate diet and so my conclusion is if youíre like me and you have a family history of diabetes, my father died of a disease, his brother died of the disease and itís clearly come directly through to myself and my own children.


How often are people screened for diabetes in South Africa? How often was Tim Noakes? Until he became carbohydrate conscious--would his doctor have even bothered checking?

I'm willing to call shenanigans, in that maybe he should have spoken more clearly, made it obvious that the diabetes was diagnosed after he went on the low carbohydrate diet. But unless diabetes screening is very frequent in South Africa, this looks pretty innocent to me.

Looking back, I'm just saying what PJ said. Without a baseline, this suggests nothing about low carb causing diabetes.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 14:11
HappyLC's Avatar
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Without a baseline, this suggests nothing about low carb causing diabetes.


I'm not saying it caused it, just wondering why it didn't prevent it.

My A1c was high at my last check up so I've been doing a lot of research. I was particularly interested in this thread - http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=463950

That led me to Dr. Atkin's "Meat and Millet" diet.

Then I went down the Google rabbit hole, reading about how dietary fat makes insulin resistance worse and lowfat carbs make it better. Apparently it's a thing. And now I don't know what to do.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 14:20
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: Paleo 99.5%
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Default

I hope you don't find this insulting. I'm just giving my impression to a pattern I think I've seen. If I'm wrong, forgive me.

You seem to go through these existential crises every few months. Remember the last time you did this? You went lowfat vegan, IIRC, and then came back and swore you'd never do it again. It seems as if you're diving down the rabbit hole again.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 14:30
HappyLC's Avatar
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 212/177/135 Female 66.75
BF:
Progress: 45%
Location: Long Island, NY
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I hope you don't find this insulting. I'm just giving my impression to a pattern I think I've seen. If I'm wrong, forgive me.

You seem to go through these existential crises every few months. Remember the last time you did this? You went lowfat vegan, IIRC, and then came back and swore you'd never do it again. It seems as if you're diving down the rabbit hole again.


You are completely right, Nancy. (You and my husband could have quite a long conversation.) And I don't find it insulting at all.

But should I ignore things like this?

(And IRL it's a lot more frequent than "every few months"...I just don't post too often, lol.)
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 14:32
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Default

He could have been diabetic three days before the diet started. Or three months.

Nobody on the "Low carb raises blood glucose" who wasn't diabetic prior to the diet is clearly diabetic now. Glucose intolerance, slight elevations in fasting blood glucose, is not diabetes. CoachJeff has even come to the point where it looks like his elevated blood glucose might have been caused by a vial of faulty blood glucose strips giving falsely high readings.




There's two separate issues here.

Quote:
dietary fat makes insulin resistance worse and lowfat carbs make it better.


One; a healthy person with normal blood glucose on a higher carb diet is more likely to show glucose intolerance on a high fat, low-carb diet. This is normal, the body switches over to a high fat metabolism, it's poorly adapted to more than habitual intake of glucose. This is not diabetes or prediabetes.

Two; for some people, an extremely high carb, low fat diet like the Rice Diet does seem to reverse diabetes. In a glucocentric universe, this is called diabetes reversal vs. normal glucose achieved with a very low carbohydrate diet. But people on the Rice Diet are just as fat-intolerant as people on very low carb are glucose intolerant--go back to a high fat and high carb diet, from either direction, and diabetes will return.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 14:38
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HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 212/177/135 Female 66.75
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Progress: 45%
Location: Long Island, NY
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
...for some people, an extremely high carb, low fat diet like the Rice Diet does seem to reverse diabetes. In a glucocentric universe, this is called diabetes reversal vs. normal glucose achieved with a very low carbohydrate diet. But people on the Rice Diet are just as fat-intolerant as people on very low carb are glucose intolerant--go back to a high fat and high carb diet, from either direction, and diabetes will return.


This is where I was going next. I've read quite a few testimonials of people who went extremely high carb, low fat, and had reversal. Fat-intolerant vs. glucose-intolerant...I hadn't thought of that.

Thanks.
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 14:53
HappyLC's Avatar
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 212/177/135 Female 66.75
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Default

From a McDougall dieter (regarding Prof. Noakes) -

Quote:
I have been t2 for twenty-three years. Am on no meds. Have normal blood sugars. Now eat a higher carb diet without meat, fat, dairy, eggs or added oils. Am at my normal weight.

Everyone across the world is not getting diabetes from suddenly eating high fat diets. At least in those countries that have adopted our way of eating, people have been gradually increasing their animal fat and protein and processed food diets for the last thirty years. Not suddenly, and the fatter we get the more we get diabetes.

Why does he think he needs meds to get perfect control? I never heard that anywhere.

The American Diabetes Association diet is NOT a high carb diet. It is a carb counting diet with the addition of dairy, meat, fish or fowl, added fats and some eggs. Of course it doesn't work. Nor does the similar American Heart Association Diet which appears to be the ADA diet without counting carbs.

Mr. Noakes is making himself more and more insulin resistant but will not acknowledge it. He might find himself needing more and more meds to get that "perfect" control.
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 14:57
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is online now
Posts: 19,311
 
Plan: ~VLC/~dirty primal
Stats: 520/377/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 84%
Location: Ozarks USA
Default

As a side note, after too much reading on individual nutrients and amino acids and such, I eventually realized that you can't really address any health issue, whether prevention or cure, without ensuring you have a good full-spectrum of nutrients coming in. Since people tend to fall in patterns of habit, this is even more important, since being heavily skewed toward getting more of one thing and too little of another, if present, has likely been present for years if not decades, greatly aggravating the problem.

I knew someone who griped that his son went on lowcarb and got gout. Three times. I assured him that there was no reason for lowcarb itself to give you gout, but certainly with any eating plan you can skew your intake in such a way as to have side effects. Well it turns out there are a few amino acids and minerals really critical to the urea cycle; knowing he had gout issues, did he read anything of this, attempt to get them into his diet? No. And it turns out that went he went lowcarb, he would immediately begin drinking literally 12++ diet cokes a day, and narrowed his food intake to almost nothing but burger patties and sometimes bacon/eggs. Gee I can't imagine why this might lead to other things... but it doesn't really have anything to do with lowcarb, per se.

People can implement any diet well or badly (for example 'paleo' who all but live on maple syrup based recipes, every eating plan has a subset of folks for whom everything is a dessert). And I don't think it's just this example of paleo or the gout, I think it's also more subtle and pervasive, in that when people come to a diet, they aren't coming as tabula rasa, they're coming with a history.

So I came to lowcarb thinking, "Well, I'm insanely fat, but weirdly enough aside from asthma/reflux I have no other illness at all." My blood markers were healthy for example. But this was insane. Actually I think my liver was severely screwed up and pretty well has to be for any person to get to 500#. But I didn't get diagnosed by anybody with a liver issue. So it wasn't until I did lowcarb really "well" and lost a lot of weight fast, that all the sudden I seemed to start having problems with my liver ('seemingly' -- only a guess -- not being able to make enough ketones, fast enough, to maintain me anymore). But lowcarb didn't hurt my liver. It saved my life. I had that issue walking in, it's just that I didn't know about it until some other situation forced it into symptoms I couldn't ignore.

And everybody does this. I think when people have health issues the first thing they should look at is a) what am I eating that I might actually be 'reacting' to, and b) what am I not eating, of the full spectrum of aminos, enzymes, minerals, lipids, that might be necessary for robust health? Possibly with c) considering my past, what nutrients have I most likely spent years/decades deficient in? I think those three questions, applied to food choices, could probably go a long way to helping peoples' health regardless of what kind of eating plan they are on.

PJ
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 14:59
Zei Zei is offline
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Plan: Carb reduction in general
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Default

I ate the usual recommended high carb stuff pretty much my whole life until just a few years back. Now have T2 diabetes (which runs in family too). Also now eat very low carb. Can't bring my sugars all the way down to normal that way but just imagine how much worse my A1c's would be feeding loads of carbs into such a broken metabolic system. Blaming that gentleman's diabetes on his past three months of low carb diet makes about about as much sense as blaming recent smoking cessation as the cause of a cancer diagnosis.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 15:52
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teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,833
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyLC
From a McDougall dieter (regarding Prof. Noakes) -



From a ketogenic dieter

--bullocks. (Not you, the McDougall diet commentor).
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Feb-13-15, 16:12
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Imagine the "From a McDougall dieter's" head will explode as the news spreads about relaxing the saturated fat restriction guidelines. He's attributed all related to the increase in T2 to a slow death caused by the gradual increase of "animal fat and protein." Glad he can identify cause from his rigorous double blind study.
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