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  #505   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 21:15
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mae_west mae_west is offline
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Plan: keto/paleo with IF 18/6
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I know it was when I went to cooking school that I learned from my instructor that meat only needed to be cooked to make it more palatable for the people who just could not stand to eat it raw, and that heating the fat portion made it tastier. And I grabbed right on to that idea. People got so grossed out from me eating blue or just rare steaks, but I managed to convert a number of well cooked steak people just by getting them to try it. And topping it with a bit of butter was just the icing on the steak!

I actually had to try raw pork that we were making into sausage, to show that it tasted fine with the spices and fillers and did not require cooking - I will so never forget that, even though I do not remember how it tasted.

I know very few young children who actively like eating meat (except ham and bacon), but I think it is because it is cooked too much, and therefore takes too long to chew. Mostly rare meat is much easier to chew.

My 8 year old will eat medium rare steak but I have to pour off the bloody juice. She eats it with some butter and salt with no problem. And she would trade meat in for pasta anyday. As well as fruit for veggies. She may be a super taster as well.

Just my 2 cents..
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  #506   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 21:19
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PlaneCrazy PlaneCrazy is offline
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Plan: Modified Paleo Atkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
...And the fruit that our ancestors had was not even sweet at all. So, I doubt they would have eaten them at all (except, as you say, during lean times).


Oh, come on, Deano. I can't let this one get by. Lots of wild fruit is sweet. Wild strawberries, blueberries, raspberries are all sweet. Yes, our domestication of most fruits has lead to larger, sweeter fruits, but that doesn't mean the wild varieties are not naturally sweet.

I still think our ancestors were opportunistic eaters with meat giving the greatest bang for the buck, but I doubt everyone hunted, someone had to stay back and take care of the kids who can't go on hunts. While they're sitting back at the home site (permanent or migratory) do you think they wouldn't bother gathering ripe berries right around the site or gathering fruit fallen around trees? There were calories literally ripe for the picking, available with little to no effort and I can't imagine them passing them by.

The facts are, our physiogomy is omnivorous, our teeth and digestive system are between herbivores and carnivores. When most of your energy expenditure is centered around food acquisition, you're not going to pass up free food when it comes your way, whether it be a rotting carcase or ripe fruit. I haven't seen any scientific evidence yet that proves we're supposed to be purely carnivorous, and lots to show that we're omnivorous. All of our closest relatives in the animal kingdom are opportunistic eaters and omnivorous.

Plane
"You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts."
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  #507   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 21:32
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PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
I still think our ancestors were opportunistic eaters with meat giving the greatest bang for the buck
I actually agree, and that is why I said "during lean times". I just doubt there were that many "lean times". When your belly is full of fat, you are not going to be interested in stuff that grows on a bush. You might be interested, but, it would be more like curiosity. Our evolution took us through omnivorous times, yes. I have never argued with that. And, you're right. I don't have the "facts". And, I doubt few do. But, I still think the "greatest bang for the buck" will go a long way toward good health. It's a symbiotic relationship that has produced this condition. And, even if veggies are not bad for us (which they probably are), they aren't necessary. Sorry. Just don't buy it.
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  #508   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 21:54
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ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Hello all,

Hi Bear
Sorry for coming so late to the thread, but, man I did not know this gem existed (BTW thanks coolwater!). I really need to hang out on the paleo forum! Lotta lively though provoking discussion here.
Quote:
I figure most of what we call 'aging' is due to insulin damage to the collagen and other body structures.

I tend to agree, but I don't think it's that simple . Although I won't nit pick and will generally agree insulin plays a huge role in premature aging.
Quote:
No carbs = no insulin.

This I disagree with; no insulin = death. Always. No matter what you eat. Insulin does a lot of things besides move sugar around the body, and even if it ONLY did that, no insulin still would mean death since our bodies are glucose dependent even if we eat no carbs.

Although it's possible you meant to say no carbs = no insulin hypersecretion, and that I would agree is pretty much true . Unless of course you over eat protein or even fats... both of which are turned into sugar in varying amounts and raise the level, sometimes to hyperglycemic levels. This would require increasingly larger amounts of insulin to bring it down.
Even if they didn't, building muscles, tissues, all anabolic processes are insulin dependent. One characteristic of diabetes is tissue wasting in spite of food ... explicitly because insulin is so high and the body cannot use it well that it can't maintain its tissues.
Quote:
At this point I would like to point out that a zero carb diet does NOT cause ketosis. The body rapidly adapts within a few weeks and begins consuming the ketones from fat metabolism. A fully keto-adapted body excretes no ketones in the urine. A metabolic by product, 'ketone bodies' are actually a special kind of carb, and they substitute for glucose at the structures which use it. They have the added advantage of making you feel good- and well fed.

The body always produces ketones, even if you are eating a high carb diet. Again, perhaps what you meant to say was that we become so adapted to fat-metabolism that we no longer produce as many of them, in excess, as we do early on, because our bodies can more efficiently use fat?

The 12th marks my third year of low carb, high fat eating. Carbs have not been higher than 80g on average (considerably lower than energy need), I have been eating almost 50% fat or more as well. For the earlier portion of those years, carbs were often much lower than that. I can still perceive ketosis, and I can tell when I am deeper in or out based on how I feel emotionally and physically. For example, I had eaten only 30 carbs today and did a lot of activity on not much food... naturally this caused my body to liberate fats and produce ketones more than usual. I felt nauseas and had no appetite.

Quote:
The body cannot store dietary fat,

This is simply untrue. In fact converting dietary fat to adipose is the most metabolically efficient way of making fat, because molecularly it is so similar. This does not mean eating fat makes you fat... of course. All I'm saying is the body can and will turn dietary fat to body fat.
Quote:
I must warn all of you that it is very unlikely that very many will be able to eat as I do over the long term, or in fact, to follow any diet for long which is much different from the one you were trained to as a baby/child. This is because diet is learned much the same way language, dress and behavior is, and is buried deep and inaccessible, a part of your acculturation/socialization. The very thing which makes us human is that deep and almost instinctive complex of behavior.

It requires a powerful will and a determination to change, in order to succeed in adopting the 'extreme' diet which this website is based on. Even those who are morbidly obese, as powerful a motivation as any I can imagine will have 'cravings' for what I call 'non-food' (all vegetation and carbs) which will eventually prove irresistible. A few may manage to stay on the diet for years, but unless you are prepared to stick with it for maybe ten or more years, you will drift back into eating what I consider poison. For some reason my mum was not interested in forcing me to eat the veggies I hated so, and i was able to eat only what I liked- mostly meat, especially hamburger and the fat those at our table would cut from their steaks. Still I had massive struggles abandoning the 'civilized diet'.

On one hand you seem to say what we like should dictate what we eat - you like meat and don't like veggies. You keep offering evidence of willful kids who won't eat veggies as some kind of evidence that they are bad. You seem to assume everyone shares this view when I know lots and lots of people who can hardly tolerate meat and love veggie food (I'm not talking sugar addiction either). Most kids who won't eat veggies won't eat meat, either.

On the other hand you say we should not eat what we like because that is untrustworthy - for example no "nonfood" which you describe as anything that isn't meat or animal based. In fact there isn't really much in common with what you consider "food" besides the fact it comes from an animal. Dairy is a modern, relatively high processed food. So are store bought muscle meats; I'm sure early humans ate relatively much more visceral and organ meats than they did feedlot strip steaks and other modern foods.

I am getting the impression you think we should eat what you think is best... just because. It's as if you really like the idea of eating animals in spirit and you've kinda made a personal religion about it. There isn't that much facts to support your belief that animal foods are the only natural foods for a person, nor that there is any objective basis for what you are defining as "natural food".

More on the dairy... I notice you eat a lot of dairy and cheese. Are you aware that the human animal is WAY less acclimated to a diet with dairy than it is to a diet with veggies, right? Very few sects of humanity ate dairy, and it is a relatively recent part of our diets. Whereas, most of us ate some kind of vegetative matter and humans have been eating veggies... well forever.

Quote:
In the relatively short evolutionary period since the consumption of vegetables as food there has not been any real adaptation to such low grade low energy, difficult to digest foods. Because we have no adaptation to digesting or processing vegetables as food, they are all basically very bad for us.

I don't follow your reasoning.
You seem to be assuming that everything we put in our mouths is pointless if not an energy source. I disagree.

I think we can both agree on one main point: Human beings are supposed to run on an animal-food based metabolism, that is to say, animal food is the major substrate for energy. We are not supposed to eat lots if any tubers, fruits, grains, and other sugar foods for sugar. The diseases of prosperity (i.e. carbs) show that.

However it is not logical to take that and then assume it must be true that we are supposed to ONLY consume animal foods.

Do you drink water? Technically water contains no energy and it is a "nonfood". Why drink it? I'll tell you why, because hydration with H20 is essential to keep our bodies doing what they're doing. I look at veggies the same way. Veggies have nutrient factors that animal foods might not, such as roughage and phytochemicals which can be beneficial. Veggies themselves contain no energy, much like water, but they have other properties that are physiologically beneficial.

Just because you have lived this long in relatively good health does not mean it is the lack of veggies that brought you there. Technically one could survive without ever drinking a glass of water. I'm sure it's possible to eat enough melons, or raw meat, or milk... whatever. However, this is hardly evidence that water is "nonfood" or "poison". Nor is it evidence that not drinking water is the reason you are in relatively good health. If you were eating veggies, perhaps you would be better health?

After all there are some very healthy people who live their whole lives eating neither veggies NOR much animal food, by a lucky genetic role (and likely under eating, thus avoiding hyperinsulinemia).

Going to read through this massive thread and try to catch up with it now

Last edited by ItsTheWooo : Thu, Mar-09-06 at 22:00.
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  #509   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 22:28
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saffron28
What a interesting post and one I can relate to. I have always disliked most vegetables and some time struggle to eat them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manaburrn
(especially the vegetables thing - I say they are totally optional and I get called on that opinion constantly)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
I pray, hope, and would even give away 1/4 of my soul for any kind of empirical scientific research stipulating that plant food consumption isn't necessary for optimal health.

I disdain, loath, and find ALL veggies the nastiest tasting stuff imaginable. Every serving of veggie I eat ruins the rest of my dinner.


Out of curiosity...

Is there a single person on this thread who agrees with the "veggies are bad" hypothesis raised by the bear, who isn't also a veggie hater?
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  #510   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 22:29
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
This is mind boggling to me. LOL

Just curious, what do you like about them? The benefits? You can't like the way they taste, can you?


Oh they are so delicious frederick! I feel almost sorry that you can't taste what I taste; the low carb lifestyle would probably be so much more enjoyable for you.

I think my favorite vegetable is cabbage. Cabbage is sweet and peppery, and it has a nice crunch to it. It complements sour or bitter foods very well. I can eat cabbage raw with just mustard.
I love it in creamy coleslaws, too.
I find cabbage also complements deeper sweet tastes - like asian pork with plum, apricot, anise-flavor hoisin sauces. One of my favorite dishes is to stir fry cabbage with sweet pork and ginger and soy sauce. Cabbage really complements all these flavors veeery well. It is way better than cauliflower, which IMO adds very little as a rice substitute other than it's being flavor-neutral and white (and thus easier to tolerate for a lot of people as a starch sub). For me, though cabbage all the way .

Nancy was talking about asparagus, trying to describe it. To me asparagus tastes warm, nutty, almost slightly like avocado, but not mild and summery. The flavor of asparagus begs to be brought out with creams or nuts or other fats. Goes great with another rich heavy food like beef.

Speaking of mild and summery... squashes. Oh man do I love squash! Roasted summer squashes are absolutely delicious, with caramelized onions, and some nice fatty salmon. Heaven. In fact most any roasted sweet vegetable is good since roasting develops the sugars into caramel (example: onions, peppers, and squashes)

Then there are the heartier winter squashes, like pumpkin. Nutmeg, cinnamon, and some kind of creamy dairy = instant comfort be it a warm soup (slightly spicy) or a custard or pie (sweet).

In another thread you inquired about eggplant lasagna; eggplant is slightly sweet and has a kind of smoky flavor to me. The smokiness of eggplant comes out a lot when you roast it. I love roasted eggplant, 'specially baba gahnush (I murdered that spelling)... or as a salad.

Another of my fav veggies is spinach. Anything with cheese tastes better with spinach. Same deal with broccoli.
I like to use broccoli in anything with a lot of sauce because it just sucks it up and then when you bite down it's like WHAM flavor city .

Mushrooms. Cream sauces, onions, cheese (swiss).

Tomatoes are sweet and tangy. Iceberg lettuce is very sweet, cool, crisp. As are cucumbers only they are not sweet.

Man I could go on forever. God I LOVE veggies. Even when I was on a see food diet I always liked them... but LCing taught me to cook and thus now I LOVE them.
I don't know how people low carb hating veggies. That must suck for sure.
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  #511   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 22:34
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ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
I don't know how anyone could not like asparagus. The first time that I tasted it, I was in heaven. It goes great with a nice rare steak.

My oldest son hates it though.


Couldn't agree more!

Fact: Roasting a veggie always makes it better. Asparagus really gets delicious when the tips are blackened and caramelized
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  #512   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 23:14
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Frederick Frederick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Oh they are so delicious frederick! I feel almost sorry that you can't taste what I taste; the low carb lifestyle would probably be so much more enjoyable for you.


Hi Woo!

Welcome to my all-time favorite thread! I think, the “chocolate is good for you” one is a distant 2nd. LOL

Did you take that test Nancy posted? Apparently, my being a supertaster is a possible reason for my disdain for veggies.

So, you’ve always liked veggies? Even when you were, say, 5 years old?

How about this? Let’s say that on a hot day after a bike ride, what would you opt for? Orange Juice? Or, a head of cabbage?

PS: You make the asparagus thing sound pretty appetizing, but unfortunately its vile taste has been forever scorched into my memory.
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  #513   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 23:22
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ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
Bear,

I take it you have no problem eating dairy products (at least the dairy fat). Since our ancestors did not eat that, how is it that we can eat it now? Just curious, as I don't really understand this aspect of paleo eating. It seems that most everyone trying to follow a paleo WOE seems to favor some form of dairy, whether it be cream, butter, or cheese. I use to love cheese but wanted to not consume it because of it having foreign proteins, etc. and so have stayed away from it. I still eat raw butter. BTW... do you eat raw dairy (or "dead dairy")?

Personally I think a lot of paleo is more a religion than a diet. It's the low carb version of moral vegetarianism. Feelings seem to strongly influence the decision to be paleo since there is really very little conclusive about what constitutes a paleo diet (like you said some people eat cheese which makes *no* sense... even the bear seems to include butter and cheese as part of his very eccentric "natural food diet").

Paleo is more about feeling a sense of continuity and connectedness to the past, cultivating your power, owning your heritage. Guys really like the idea. The idea of the sense of belonging to the power of life (linked to the past), combined with all the animal food (tokens of your power)... it makes you feel empowered and strong.

It's definitely way more than a diet.
Which is why there is so little in common among paleo dieters other than the fact I haven't yet seen a vegetarian one . It's about what foods represent, rather than what they are...
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  #514   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 23:34
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ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
Hi Woo!

Welcome to my all-time favorite thread! I think, the “chocolate is good for you” one is a distant 2nd. LOL

Did you take that test Nancy posted? Apparently, my being a supertaster is a possible reason for my disdain for veggies.

So, you’ve always liked veggies? Even when you were, say, 5 years old?

Well when my diet had more variety, I didn't love veggies, because I really didn't appreciate food enough to think that much about it (it was "for granted).
But, I always liked them. I did not ever hate veggies, always preferred them to starches. In fact until I became more carb addicted as, I preferred them to pasta, potatoes, and rice. I had to force myself to eat starches until I discovered takeout food with lots of sauce . I became addicted to rice first, then I began to tolerate pasta. I still do not like potatoes.

Anyway as a kid, raw broccoli, green beans, and cukes with salad dressing were common treats I loved. I never liked the starches.

Although, meat was always my primary love. Ever since I can remember I have been crazy about it.
Quote:

How about this? Let’s say that on a hot day after a bike ride, what would you opt for? Orange Juice? Or, a head of cabbage?

Well if I'm thirsty, OJ of course! The idea of eating something salty, tangy, and peppery (I would almost assuredly dip the stuff in mustard or ketchup ) when I'm thirsty like that sounds like self torture . OJ is a liquid plus it's loaded with potassium which is what I am craving when thirsty.

The answer is, probably neither knowing what I know about carbs... I would probably have a huge craving for carrots or melon or other aqueous high potassium foods though .

Tastewise, when hungry, I much prefer cabbage to OJ.

In fact, if I'm thirsty as well as hungry, I can sometimes plow through veggies before the meats, if the veggies are something really high potassium and water like say broccoli or carrots. Many times I'll finish my veggies and I'll be like "oh damn I really want more broccoli... I ate that too fast" . I have to pace how fast I eat my veggies for this reason, since they are so unfilling (relative to meat) I can eat them all very fast.
Quote:
PS: You make the asparagus thing sound pretty appetizing, but unfortunately its vile taste has been forever scorched into my memory.

Awww

I had a vile veggie memory, only one. When I was a kid I was fed turnips and I recall getting sick. I lived much of my life under the assumption turnips were horrible, bitter, nasty things. Then I discovered, thanks to LC, that if you slice turnips up and roast them (god bless roasted veggies) with lots of chilli pepper and cheese, you have a delicious snack that gives chips a run for its money.
Then I learned that turnips even when plain as in boiled in a soup was also quite good - very sweet, and good carriers of broth and flavor.

Oh, and I couldn't stand the sliminess of avocado. I honestly thought I was allergic to it because when I would eat it I felt I would gag and like my throat would close up. Obviously it was just in my head because now I love them.
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  #515   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 23:34
theBear theBear is offline
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It behooves late comers to this 500+ posting thread to go back and read the entire thing before putting their foot in a bucket. Virtually every thing used in attack has been answered thoroughly already. Some recaps below:

I have studies which show that NO dietary fat enters the adipose tissues- the study was based on radioisotope uptake, and showed the only adipose radioactivity resulted from the incorporation of tagged glucose. None was found inside the cells from tagged fatty acids/triglycerides. It is impossible for fat to pass across the adipose cell wall, there simply is no mechanism. In order to release stored fat, the adipose cell's wall ruptures and releases the fat directly, afterwards healing. This microscopic rupture is detected as a vague discomfort commonly felt by dieters, and is relieved by eating, especially a carb meal. The fat into storage, an ancient unsupported contention- is false, the body cannot and does not store dietary fat, it must circulate until consumed as fuel.

I am used to a near violent rejection of my words like this, it is more common than you might think, and almost always is full of diet-myth and nonsense. I am not telling anyone how or what to eat and I have made that manifestly clear in my posts, I am simply offering my 47 years of experience in following this path- what you eat and what you think about eating is not subject to your conscious mind's control. In time, and with great effort you may come to accept it, but your 'gut' will not usually completely give up your social dietary conditioning. Some people are so threatened by any assertion that their mum was wrong in what she gave them as a babe and told them was right to eat, that they become agitated, illogical and confused. Sorry about that.

My writings are just an example of what I have discovered in a long time period of reading, thinking and communicating with others. I did not understand for years why no one was able to follow me- I finally figured out the social conditioning aspect and it fully explained everything I have encountered. Attempts to belittle my information or drag me into an argument are doomed to failure, as I have no doubt of any kind about what I have written here as well as on my website.

The totally frivolous and illogical statement that my diet may not be the raison d'etre of my excellent health is like saying that my strength and muscularity may not be due to my spending many years lifting heavy weights in the gym. Right. And I do not like it when people who are not even up on what I have been up to in my thread, come in like gangbusters- to criticise and attempt to lecture me. Don't get into the shallow place of suggesting 'perhaps this, perhaps that' Especially; what is this nonsense about 'importance of water'- I drink up to four litres a day- I bet the writer does not.

If pigs had wings-or did not cleverly hide them from us, perhaps they might fly. Thus the fact that none have been seen to do so does not mean they can't???.

I have only told in this thread about the true state and origin of my diet and its long term overall effect on me, my body and and my health, I have vast experience with friends and acquaintances who are vegans, vegetarians and mixed diet eaters- trust me, they all are, and this in includes some half my age, all in such relatively poor health and physical condition compared to me that this whole idea my diet may not be responsible is truly laughable.

Read, understand and think- before typing.

Boiling goat or any other meat for 1-2 hours will completely destroy any and all vitamins, denature and render difficult to digest all the proteins, and seems like a total waste of good food- if cooking makes it tough, buy kid, or eat it raw. Raw meat is rarely tough- and if the meat is still tough, cut it up with a sharp knife and swallow the bits with minimal chewing- unchewed meat dissolves all by itself in the stomach juices:

There was a soldier in Napoleon's army who suffered a nasty cut in battle to his abdomen. The cut was bound up on the battle field and much later was found to have healed to the skin leaving a slit-like opening into the stomach. The doctors decided not to intervene, and subsequently were able to insert various food items into the soldier's stomach directly- and observe the process of digestion. A whole steak dissolved on about one hour and became a liquid. Vegetables varied from between two to four hours and did not dissolve, just softened and became a kind of mush.


The fresh juice from raw or lightly cooked, rare meat does not contain any blood. Meat will quickly spoil unless ALL traces of blood are quickly removed from the flesh at slaughter. The red colour in meat juice is due to myoglobin, an iron containing compound related structurally to hemoglobin and found throughout muscle tissues. The run-off juice is high in protein and very nourishing- it is chock full of the most delicious flavours.

My direct experience with young babies is that they always instantly take to raw or rare meat, and vigorously reject any and all vegetation. A pediatrician told me at the time of my second kid that a human baby has the ability to digest only two things at birth- human milk and raw meat in paste/chewed up form (so long as not offered with too high a fat level).

At the risk of being repetitious:

Archeological digs into paleolithic people's homesites show zero evidence of fruit or any type of food vegetation residues, like seed, stems or skin. So any grazing of such foods occurred opportunistically and was done where found.

Our physiognomy is due to the development of speech, our mouths are only secondarily used to eat with- talking has preempted and ruled the size and shape of our mouths and oral cavities. The commonly heard and false contention that we have the organs and teeth of an omnivore are just crude vegetarian propaganda which is so wrong that a child without training should be able to demonstrate the fallacy of by comparing pictures.

Our intestinal structure and length is that of a carnivore- like a big cat, and nothing like an omnivore like the rat or pig.

Our teeth are pure carnivore, they have a continuous enamel coat, are quite sharp, erupt once and do not grow or get replaced just as is the norm for animal of insectivore lineage. They are utterly unlike the complex teeth of herbivores and omnivores- whose teeth grow throughout life.

We really don't have any very 'close' relatives- a term needing definition, as the closest, the pongids or great apes (some of whom like the chimp are good hunters and eat large amounts of meat- mostly monkeys) separated out ~6 million years ago. Of the large genera primates, many are heavy meat eaters, some are widely omnivorous, a few rather short lived monkeys are herbivorous, like the proboscids, and some- like the tree shrew are totally insectivorous..

Last edited by theBear : Thu, Mar-09-06 at 23:44. Reason: error correction.
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  #516   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 23:35
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PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Unless of course you over eat protein or even fats... both of which are turned into sugar in varying amounts and raise the level, sometimes to hyperglycemic levels. This would require increasingly larger amounts of insulin to bring it down.
Could you please explain how this happens? Am very curious about these things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
converting dietary fat to adipose is the most metabolically efficient way of making fat, because molecularly it is so similar. This does not mean eating fat makes you fat... of course. All I'm saying is the body can and will turn dietary fat to body fat.
Under what conditions? Again, just very curious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Dairy is a modern, relatively high processed food. So are store bought muscle meats; I'm sure early humans ate relatively much more visceral and organ meats than they did feedlot strip steaks and other modern foods.
I would tend to agree that they ate the whole animal. I also have a problem with dairy. I like it, but am still not totally convinced it is best to do... again, from a paleo perspective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
I am getting the impression you think we should eat what you think is best... just because. It's as if you really like the idea of eating animals in spirit and you've kinda made a personal religion about it. There isn't that much facts to support your belief that animal foods are the only natural foods for a person, nor that there is any objective basis for what you are defining as "natural food".

More on the dairy... I notice you eat a lot of dairy and cheese. Are you aware that the human animal is WAY less acclimated to a diet with dairy than it is to a diet with veggies, right? Very few sects of humanity ate dairy, and it is a relatively recent part of our diets. Whereas, most of us ate some kind of vegetative matter and humans have been eating veggies... well forever.
I think there is some contradictions in Bear's philosophy of eating paleo type foods, and just eating foods based more on the macro nutrients he feels the body is best suited for. I for one have always tried to "model" my eating after the most "natural" food. Bear has repeated many times that he doesn't know/doesn't care what paleo people ate… although, he has used what he thought they ate when it suited his arguments. Thus, the contradiction. EDIT: But, after reading his post above, he has provided much more evidence of paleo eating. I'm still quite curious as to the dairy (casein) question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
I think we can both agree on one main point: Human beings are supposed to run on an animal-food based metabolism, that is to say, animal food is the major substrate for energy. We are not supposed to eat lots if any tubers, fruits, grains, and other sugar foods for sugar. The diseases of prosperity (i.e. carbs) show that.
Here you assume we should not eat certain foods. Bear assumes that we should not eat certain foods. You sound a lot like him!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
However it is not logical to take that and then assume it must be true that we are supposed to ONLY consume animal foods.
If that is what he assumes… as you too have assumed things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Veggies have nutrient factors that animal foods might not, such as roughage and phytochemicals which can be beneficial. Veggies themselves contain no energy, much like water, but they have other properties that are physiologically beneficial.
Once again, this is more assuming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Just because you have lived this long in relatively good health does not mean it is the lack of veggies that brought you there.
True… but I don't think he ever really asserted that. He just put out the facts and perhaps implied the causation. EDIT: After reading his comments in the above post, let's say strongly implied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Out of curiosity...

Is there a single person on this thread who agrees with the "veggies are bad" hypothesis raised by the bear, who isn't also a veggie hater?
Well, I sort of agree that his hypothesis sounds pretty sound. And, I LOVE certain veggies (cooked with lots of butter that is).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Oh they are so delicious frederick! I feel almost sorry that you can't taste what I taste; the low carb lifestyle would probably be so much more enjoyable for you.

Man I could go on forever. God I LOVE veggies. Even when I was on a see food diet I always liked them... but LCing taught me to cook and thus now I LOVE them.
I don't know how people low carb hating veggies. That must suck for sure.
Here you are simply showing that you are eating what you like… and not necessarily that it is good or bad for your health. As Bear said, hard to perform brain surgery on one's self.

Just more "food" for thought.

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 00:01.
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Old Thu, Mar-09-06, 23:44
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Rosebud Rosebud is offline
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Originally Posted by theBear
The totally frivolous and illogical statement that my diet may not be the raison d'etre of my excellent health is like saying that my strength and muscularity may not be due to my spending many years lifting heavy weights in the gym.

Excellent health? I really don't mean to be rude here, Bear, but didn't you say you have cancer? And didn't you also say that the cancer could be caused by environmental factors?

You see, I don't think you can have it both ways. Either you are in rude health, and it is caused by your diet PLUS genetics PLUS environment plus many other factors.
Or...your health is not good at the moment, and this could be caused by many things...including the lack of vegetables in your diet.

Rosebud
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 00:14
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PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Personally I think a lot of paleo is more a religion than a diet. It's the low carb version of moral vegetarianism. Feelings seem to strongly influence the decision to be paleo since there is really very little conclusive about what constitutes a paleo diet (like you said some people eat cheese which makes *no* sense... even the bear seems to include butter and cheese as part of his very eccentric "natural food diet").

Paleo is more about feeling a sense of continuity and connectedness to the past, cultivating your power, owning your heritage. Guys really like the idea. The idea of the sense of belonging to the power of life (linked to the past), combined with all the animal food (tokens of your power)... it makes you feel empowered and strong.

It's definitely way more than a diet.
Which is why there is so little in common among paleo dieters other than the fact I haven't yet seen a vegetarian one . It's about what foods represent, rather than what they are...
?????

Sorry to disappoint your "theory" (what an imagination! ). No, you have it all wrong. When it came to my decision to "eat paleo", it was only to find what was the best nutrition for a human, based simply on what a human evolved on. This is a pretty classic definition as well. I think you might be offending a few... did you know you were on the paleo forum? And, even if you are not offending anyone else... I take a lot of offense in what you are saying here. It would be like me attacking your LC/HF eating as a way for you to "feel superior" or "holier" to LF/HC eaters... or some other such nonsense! Sorry, but this just sounds too ridiculous, and I have never heard it from anywhere before. I would probably eat cardboard if I though it would give me some health advantage. I eat "paleo" for the health, as I am sure many do. I have never even hunted before, if that gives you the slightest clue.

Talk about putting one's foot in a bucket!

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 00:26.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 00:14
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Ayustar Ayustar is offline
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Yeah, it is really hard for me to go without vegetables because they are really good. I have only ever had asparagus once and actually enjoyed it, people like to cook the hell out of it and I hate it like that, it has to be blanched slightly then pan seared quickly in olive oil and garlic, and accompanied by a nice medium rare steak with mushrooms, you really can't beat that. It all has to be done right. But over all, my preference is meat and eggs.

Honestly, it is hard for me to believe humans aren't supposed to eat vegetation, but I am just kinda doing this meat and egg experiment on myself.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 00:25
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Rosebud Rosebud is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayustar
Honestly, it is hard for me to believe humans aren't supposed to eat vegetation, but I am just kinda doing this meat and egg experiment on myself.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, Ayustar.

Humans have always eaten vegetation, and probably always will. Just because one person believes that vegetables are somehow harmful does not make it so. Vegies are chock full of healthful nutrients. Can we live without them? Sure.
But why should we deprive ourselves of those extra nutrients, especially when we enjoy them?

Rosebud
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 00:32
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PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud
But why should we deprive ourselves of those extra nutrients, especially when we enjoy them?
Because they may have antinutrient qualities. I did not say they DID have those qualities. But, you asked "why should we"... and this is ONE possible answer. I really don't know at this point, but am fascinated with the debate. It may sound like I have my "mind made up" about it... but, truthfully I don't. And, as Ayustar said, I am willing to "experiment on myself". I mean, somebody's gotta be the guinea pigs, right?


I'll volunteer for the month of April!

And, seriously, I have always eaten WAY too many carbs in the form of fruit. And justified it, cuz it was "paleo" (my religion, you see ). So, this WOE will be a good way to get lower carb, and get away from bad HC habits. I will probably cave and go back to eating vegetation (I'm not a regular churchgoer, I guess), but, hopefully it will be the LC kind. Just hope I don't tear up my intestines in the process!

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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 00:51
theBear theBear is offline
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I have only used the paleo people's limited evidence of diet to show that we went through a multimillion year long period of total carnivory, and we are the result of selective evolution as to the kinds of things we are most suited to use as food, not to bolster or use as the basis of any of my eating habits, which are based on the Inuit and extensive examination and tests done during the period when there were still those who followed their traditional diet... Plus careful awareness of my own body and the effect of foods on it. I have been subjected to complete examinations on a five to ten year basis all my life, I am not a person who avoids the doctor's clinic. I made many medical friends who were very interested in testing and measuring me over the years. By nature I am conservative and very skeptical. The things I have found to be true have been through the fire, so to speak.

Whew, can everyone here on this thread read and understand basic Australian/American English?

Cancer of any kind is not diet or nutrition-related, would that it were- it would make it a relatively simple matter to save millions of lives

...NO: I never said that my cancer could have been, or was due to either an environmental OR dietary factor. It was a total surprise to all the medical people involved, from my GP on up, that I got it at all. The fact is, the staff and experts at RPA said that they had no idea why a person as supremely fit as I was should have presented with this type of cancer at all. They asked me to agree to having my DNA studied as part of research aimed at discovering why some people who do not have any of the pointers, habits or exposures that are known to be associated with tonsilar SCC, still come down with it. My high level of fitness enabled me to come through the most grueling of treatments with my health intact- it takes the body very close to death. In fact, I have not had even a cold since.

I have not eaten ANY significant vegetables since I was 23 years of age, so any putative lack of something important or even useful, or nutritional insufficiencies- due to this path must be nonexistent by the simple and well agreed upon basic reality that all the cells in my body have been replaced seven or eight times during that period, and SURELY even to one so defensive as the complainer, this must be taken as showing that vegetation is either of no use to, or may well be bad for, a human's overall health to ingest in the mistaken idea it is proper food. A firmly held belief-system which runs contrary to observed facts does not make false things true, nor true things false.

My health at present is excellent. Is this due to my lifestyle of no veggies for 47 years? Most assuredly, it is. I have no cancer and I have no other health concerns. My ears are healing nicely after the repair of the grommet-damage.

I don't understand how trying to make ME look unhealthy is going to accomplish anything, it has nothing to do with reality.

Socialisation/acculturation over writes ALL human instincts.

Focus on the KISS principle: We eat what we eat because (and only because) our mothers ate that way, and their mothers and grandmothers, and great grandmothers, ad infinitum, ate that way, no other reason; not nutrition, not health, nothing.

What you love about vegetables is the result of your early childhood food-training, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether or not the vegetables you are convinced are 'divine' are even good for your body in any way, let alone that we need to eat them. The statement: 'Honestly, it is hard for me to believe humans aren't supposed to eat vegetation' is an opinion only, and not supported by any fact. Belief is superstition, science is tested truth.

I don't 'believe' in anything- I test everything myself to find if it is true.

As many respondents have said in this thread, my path works and it works very well indeed- for all who attempt it, even for those for whom all other ways only work poorly.

Please, let's have no more unsupported, open ended claims used in attack mode. Please give us a complete list of what you are referring to with the statement: 'Vegies are chock full of healthful nutrients'. We would really like to know about all those mystic substances you think are only found in vegetation, and must therefore be missing from an all-meat diet.

In a great many years of studying plants, I have only found medicines, defined as things which heal illnesses and disabilities, and things which change or expand consciousness, not 'nutrients'.

Last edited by theBear : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 00:56. Reason: spelling
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 01:14
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Ayustar Ayustar is offline
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Oh, I definately see your point. I notice though that when I do eat vegetables, even low glycemic ones I gain weight. I found that just with meat and eggs with the addition of mayo, butter and coconut oil *even sugar free Jello, and your run of the mill spices* that I get down to a low weight without starving myself. I have done many tests with myself to find out just what I am intolerant to and what sets me off.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 01:20
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PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
In a great many years of studying plants, I have only found medicines, defined as things which heal illnesses and disabilities, and things which change or expand consciousness, not 'nutrients'.
Well... in that case, I might just limit my consumption of veggies to certain mushrooms!

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 02:17.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 01:23
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Rob21370 Rob21370 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Socialisation/acculturation over writes ALL human instincts.

Focus on the KISS principle: We eat what we eat because (and only because) our mothers ate that way, and their mothers and grandmothers, and great grandmothers, ad infinitum, ate that way, no other reason; not nutrition, not health, nothing.

What you love about vegetables is the result of your early childhood food-training, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether or not the vegetables you are convinced are 'divine' are even good for your body in any way, let alone that we need to eat them.


Despite all the potential negatives in maintaining the diet over the course of time, the one thing that gives me hope that I'll suceed is that eating meat is one thing I don't have to re-learn. My dad drove a truck for Golden State meat company in San Francisco and we literally ate meat 7 days a week, 365 days a year. For 35 years we either got meat for free or at wholesale prices. Roasts every Sunday, italian sausage every friday, a little chicken there, some pork here, but for the most part it was beef beef beef. I also ate a lot of starch and sugar, but meat was always there. And I'm talking about really rare meat too, and as crazy at it was, I loved eating raw hamburger when my dad would bring it home from the shop. It had a sweetness that was really unique. I still love my steaks slightly raw in the inside.

I used to love it when he would sneak me into the shop and show me around as a kid. The huge whole beef hanging in the freezers was site to behold, the butchers were always very nice and watching them cut it up was really fun to watch. If the company was still there I would have easily taken a job doing something like that.

Last edited by Rob21370 : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 01:40.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 05:03
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MissSherry MissSherry is offline
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Quote:
Out of curiosity...

Is there a single person on this thread who agrees with the "veggies are bad" hypothesis raised by the bear, who isn't also a veggie hater?


Yes Me. I LOVE fruits and veggies. BUt not my body in it's reactions.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 05:15
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Demi Demi is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by theBear
What you love about vegetables is the result of your early childhood food-training

Do you meant this in the context that we have been trained to eat them? or perhaps because we have been told from early childhood that veggies are good for us?

I have a daughter who loves veggies of any kind, and a son who hates them - both have been brought up to eat exactly the same thing, so I do tend to dispute the 'training' aspect here.

I don't mean this to be a sweeping generalisation, but I've noticed that it tends to be the males here who are the veggie haters, and the females who seem to like them - and I've seen this tendency a fair bit IRL too. I don't claim that it is simply due to the 'hunter/male' and 'gatherer/female' divide that prevailed amongst our ancestors, but I do find it an interesting concept.


As for me and my relationship with veggies, I do like the majority of them, but also feel that I could 'live without them' quite happily
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 05:17
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MissSherry MissSherry is offline
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Plan: M&E Maintenance <5carbs
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Excellent health? I really don't mean to be rude here, Bear, but didn't you say you have cancer? And didn't you also say that the cancer could be caused by environmental factors
Ugh not this again.

Enviroment can cause SOME cancers (ex. sun=skin, pollutants=lungs and other). But to say a diet is to cause (just to make your argument look better) is just plain crap. I myself ate lots of veggies and ate very healthy and at age 31 lost a chunk of my breast. Then I continued eating well (even low carb) and lost my ability to have children and almost my life. I have lupus and diabetes and a blood clotting disorder (which cause me to have embolisms in my lungs) and eating this way I am sure will help in my future life battles. Also BTW I have to limit my green leaft veggies anyway due to fighting against my medications. Then ordinary veggies throw my blood glucose into a tizzy. Do I like veggies? Yup! Do I think they are neccesary for good health?? No! Do I care if you eat them?? Nope. Enjoy them. Am I peeved? No. But please refrain from insinuating The Bear has cancer due to his diet. That is insulting to anyone that has fought the cancer battle, lost a new baby to this dreaded disease or a child or any loved one....

Last edited by MissSherry : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 05:36.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 05:37
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SkeeterX SkeeterX is offline
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I too have already been down the cancer road.. I had cervical cancer. They found it when I was pregnant with my daughter. was I eating meat/eggs then? No. They let me carry her to term then yanked my insides out. My first attempt at lc about 3 years ago, and second attempt began in January of this year. Most recently, I've decided to go all meat. I truly believe some people can handle vegetables, and some cannot. I don't think I'm one of the people who can. Do I like veggies? yup, especially the ""wierd" ones... cauliflower, broccoli, brussel sprouts, spinach. Only veggie I really don't care for are beans - green beans, yellow beans, lima beans.

Last edited by SkeeterX : Fri, Mar-10-06 at 05:45.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 07:16
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lynnp lynnp is offline
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Wow, everyone is talkative. I know, for me, I'd rather read posts that point out what the posts author has experienced and I'm turned off by the posts attacking or disparaging the experiences of other authors. This site was created for people to share what they have experienced so others can take it or leave it and learn. I hope this thread will continue with that purpose in mind. Please share with us what YOU are doing for YOUR program and how it works for YOU. I love learning from others but I can distinguish for myself what I'll adopt and what I won't.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 07:27
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Frederick Frederick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
And, as Ayustar said, I am willing to "experiment on myself". I mean, somebody's gotta be the guinea pigs, right?


LOL...yes, I'm with you.

I too..er...for the sake of science and my sense of unbridled altruism shall willingly experiment on myself with a zero carb diet.

I might even brush off the cobwebs of my gym log to journal the daily "sacrifice" that I'm making eating only meats sans veggies of any kind.

Seriously, I'm awfully curious to see how my weight training evolves on this eating regimen, since I already that no carbs is better for cardio.
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Old Fri, Mar-10-06, 07:47
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Demi Demi is offline
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Originally posted by Frederick
Seriously, I'm awfully curious to see how my weight training evolves on this eating regimen, since I already that no carbs is better for cardio.

Have just come back from the gym after a great UBWO today.

I've not actually been to the gym for nearly a month (mainly due to not being well a few weeks ago and then not having the energy), so was very pleased with the weights that I was able to lift today (see gym log for details).

My breakfast this morning was a couple of scoops of whey protein mixed into some mascarpone and thick cream, and I've eaten nothing else since. Interestingly, I didn't feel that I needed to ingest anything else prior to my workout - my body 'felt' fuelled enough.
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