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Originally Posted by theBear
Hello all,
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Hi Bear
Sorry for coming so late to the thread, but, man I did not know this gem existed
(BTW thanks coolwater!). I really need to hang out on the paleo forum! Lotta lively though provoking discussion here.
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I figure most of what we call 'aging' is due to insulin damage to the collagen and other body structures.
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I tend to agree, but I don't think it's that simple
. Although I won't nit pick and will generally agree insulin plays a huge role in premature aging.
This I disagree with; no insulin = death. Always. No matter what you eat. Insulin does a lot of things besides move sugar around the body, and even if it ONLY did that, no insulin still would mean death since our bodies are glucose dependent even if we eat no carbs.
Although it's possible you meant to say no carbs = no insulin hypersecretion, and that I would agree is pretty much true
. Unless of course you over eat protein or even fats... both of which are turned into sugar in varying amounts and raise the level, sometimes to hyperglycemic levels. This would require increasingly larger amounts of insulin to bring it down.
Even if they didn't, building muscles, tissues, all anabolic processes are insulin dependent. One characteristic of diabetes is tissue wasting in spite of food ... explicitly because insulin is so high and the body cannot use it well that it can't maintain its tissues.
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At this point I would like to point out that a zero carb diet does NOT cause ketosis. The body rapidly adapts within a few weeks and begins consuming the ketones from fat metabolism. A fully keto-adapted body excretes no ketones in the urine. A metabolic by product, 'ketone bodies' are actually a special kind of carb, and they substitute for glucose at the structures which use it. They have the added advantage of making you feel good- and well fed.
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The body always produces ketones, even if you are eating a high carb diet. Again, perhaps what you meant to say was that we become so adapted to fat-metabolism that we no longer produce as many of them, in excess, as we do early on, because our bodies can more efficiently use fat?
The 12th marks my third year of low carb, high fat eating. Carbs have not been higher than 80g on average (considerably lower than energy need), I have been eating almost 50% fat or more as well. For the earlier portion of those years, carbs were often much lower than that. I can still perceive ketosis, and I can tell when I am deeper in or out based on how I feel emotionally and physically. For example, I had eaten only 30 carbs today and did a lot of activity on not much food... naturally this caused my body to liberate fats and produce ketones more than usual. I felt nauseas and had no appetite.
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The body cannot store dietary fat,
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This is simply untrue. In fact converting dietary fat to adipose is the most metabolically efficient way of making fat, because molecularly it is so similar. This does not mean eating fat makes you fat... of course. All I'm saying is the body can and will turn dietary fat to body fat.
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I must warn all of you that it is very unlikely that very many will be able to eat as I do over the long term, or in fact, to follow any diet for long which is much different from the one you were trained to as a baby/child. This is because diet is learned much the same way language, dress and behavior is, and is buried deep and inaccessible, a part of your acculturation/socialization. The very thing which makes us human is that deep and almost instinctive complex of behavior.
It requires a powerful will and a determination to change, in order to succeed in adopting the 'extreme' diet which this website is based on. Even those who are morbidly obese, as powerful a motivation as any I can imagine will have 'cravings' for what I call 'non-food' (all vegetation and carbs) which will eventually prove irresistible. A few may manage to stay on the diet for years, but unless you are prepared to stick with it for maybe ten or more years, you will drift back into eating what I consider poison. For some reason my mum was not interested in forcing me to eat the veggies I hated so, and i was able to eat only what I liked- mostly meat, especially hamburger and the fat those at our table would cut from their steaks. Still I had massive struggles abandoning the 'civilized diet'.
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On one hand you seem to say what we like should dictate what we eat - you like meat and don't like veggies. You keep offering evidence of willful kids who won't eat veggies as some kind of evidence that they are bad. You seem to assume everyone shares this view when I know lots and lots of people who can hardly tolerate meat and love veggie food (I'm not talking sugar addiction either). Most kids who won't eat veggies won't eat meat, either.
On the other hand you say we should not eat what we like because that is untrustworthy - for example no "nonfood" which you describe as anything that isn't meat or animal based. In fact there isn't really much in common with what you consider "food" besides the fact it comes from an animal. Dairy is a modern, relatively high processed food. So are store bought muscle meats; I'm sure early humans ate relatively much more visceral and organ meats than they did feedlot strip steaks and other modern foods.
I am getting the impression you think we should eat what you think is best... just because. It's as if you really like the idea of eating animals in spirit and you've kinda made a personal religion about it. There isn't that much facts to support your belief that animal foods are the only natural foods for a person, nor that there is any objective basis for what you are defining as "natural food".
More on the dairy... I notice you eat a lot of dairy and cheese. Are you aware that the human animal is WAY less acclimated to a diet with dairy than it is to a diet with veggies, right? Very few sects of humanity ate dairy, and it is a relatively recent part of our diets. Whereas, most of us ate some kind of vegetative matter and humans have been eating veggies... well forever.
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In the relatively short evolutionary period since the consumption of vegetables as food there has not been any real adaptation to such low grade low energy, difficult to digest foods. Because we have no adaptation to digesting or processing vegetables as food, they are all basically very bad for us.
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I don't follow your reasoning.
You seem to be assuming that everything we put in our mouths is pointless if not an energy source. I disagree.
I think we can both agree on one main point:
Human beings are supposed to run on an animal-food based metabolism, that is to say, animal food is the major substrate for energy. We are not supposed to eat lots if any tubers, fruits, grains, and other sugar foods for sugar. The diseases of prosperity (i.e. carbs) show that.
However it is not logical to take that and then assume it must be true that we are supposed to ONLY consume animal foods.
Do you drink water? Technically water contains no energy and it is a "nonfood". Why drink it? I'll tell you why, because hydration with H20 is essential to keep our bodies doing what they're doing. I look at veggies the same way. Veggies have nutrient factors that animal foods might not, such as roughage and phytochemicals which can be beneficial. Veggies themselves contain no energy, much like water, but they have other properties that are physiologically beneficial.
Just because you have lived this long in relatively good health does not mean it is the lack of veggies that brought you there. Technically one could survive without ever drinking a glass of water. I'm sure it's possible to eat enough melons, or raw meat, or milk... whatever. However, this is hardly evidence that water is "nonfood" or "poison". Nor is it evidence that not drinking water is the reason you are in relatively good health. If you were eating veggies, perhaps you would be better health?
After all there are some very healthy people who live their whole lives eating neither veggies NOR much animal food, by a lucky genetic role (and likely under eating, thus avoiding hyperinsulinemia).
Going to read through this massive thread and try to catch up with it now