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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 08:17
ChicknLady's Avatar
ChicknLady ChicknLady is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,046
 
Plan: Low carb
Stats: 153/150/140 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 23%
Location: Pennsylvania
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I've always been a vegetable-sceptic, too. When I was younger, I was intensely interested in 'living off the land', and after reading lots of books and experimenting, I realized that if you couldn't hunt or fish, you'd soon die here in the Northeast woods. Most edible vegetation here is of the seasonal green-leafy variety, and usually very bitter, and any most pre-historic peoples would likely choose fat/meat over bitter greens if given a choice. Vegetation was probably 'starvation fodder' to be eaten only as a last resort. I don't know where the fathers of broccoli, tomatoes, and cauliflour came from, but I've never seen any growing here in the wild.
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  #17   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 08:25
Bat Spit Bat Spit is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,051
 
Plan: paleo-ish
Stats: 482/400/240 Female 68 inches
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: DC Area
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Quote:
In the absence of dietary carbs, the body does not need to produce insulin and the diabetes essentially 'disappears'.


Actually, the body does need insulin in small amounts, even in the abscence of dietary carbs. Insulin is required to put glucose in the muscle fiber, and is necessary to make certain hormones. It just isn't needed in very high amounts.

Quote:
even organs like liver tongue kidneys and brains (although the Inuit never eat any of them- and most likely neither did the true paleo hunters)


Do you have a citation for that? I've always assumed the Inuit ate the offal because of the extremely high nutrition and fat levels.
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 10:07
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,757
 
Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/167/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 116%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
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Quote:
In the absence of dietary carbs, the body does not need to produce insulin
Protein intake stimulates insulin secretion, along with glucagon.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 10:16
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Maryland, US
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I hate to be the one to bring some reality to this discussion but I used to be a bit of an anthropology buff.

All my research, lectures, presentations I went to detailed that paleo man was an omnivore and an opportunistic diner.

All the analysis that I've seen of paleo human coprolites (dung) included both vegetable and offal matter. In the case of vegetable matter, more or less vegetable matter in the dung was used to place the season. A lot of this dung was found preserved in caves. Analysis has gotten so good, via DNA, they were able to identify the type of matter and even sometimes the species. The coprolites contained protein (both muscle and offal), insects, berries, grasses and other vegetation.

Further for paleo, depending on your timeline definition--mine is before settlement--the area of habitation was quite widespread and the resulting diet diverse. If you want to look at it as a time when there were still mastadons, they found vegetable matter and offal in those coprolites as well.

Another idea to think of...before there could be agriculture, as primitive as the first agriculture must have been, there must have been a selection from the wild of what to grow. That means that certain grasses, bulbs, fruits, and yes vegetables were growing and available in the wild.

And looking to todays woods and forests for sustenance is quite useless, the forests of today are domesticated and barren. And further, why limit yourself to this area/climate/continent. But you don't even have to look far past what was available in the forests and fields of North America when Native Americans were living in this country to see what might have been availble in the wild--onlions, garlic, cabbage, gourds, fruits and berries, greens, and yes even grasses/grains.

Oh and another thing...the liver is a great source of vitamin A, and offal are concentrated sources of other nutrients. I hardly think there would be so many primitive peoples who had culteral traditions and ceremonies for the eating of brains, hearts, and livers if these things weren't part of a more ancient diet.

Last edited by Zuleikaa : Sun, Feb-26-06 at 10:38.
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 10:26
vicgerry's Avatar
vicgerry vicgerry is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 30
 
Plan: neanderthin
Stats: 200/183/165 Male 5ft 10inches
BF:
Progress: 49%
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Welcome bear and thank you for such an interesting post. It is immensley interesting to hear from someone who has been living this lifestyle for so many years. I am almost 60 and have been on and off low carb diets for the last ten years, mainly because I wasn't quite sure if I was doing the right thing. But after just reading "Life without Bread" and your post I am motivated to stay on this diet forever now. My wife recently had chest tightness and has taken my advice to kick the carbs (she is maintaining 72 carbs a day right now until she gets more used to it, and drinking cayenne tea, that stuff is amazing). I still have 30 or 40 carbs a day but maybe that will come down with time. Thanks again for your post. I will look up your website.
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  #21   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 10:39
Bobi-p's Avatar
Bobi-p Bobi-p is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 628
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 240/145/150 Female 69 inches
BF: 21%, HT: 69"
Progress: 106%
Location: Southern California
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Bear, thanks for posting the link. Your above posts make a lot of sense to me and follows my ideas on eating. Now I feel better about eating a lot of meat, fish, and chicken, eggs and occasional cheese. However, my one non-natural food vice is coffee with cream. I have an occasional sweet tooth, especially when I'm tired and the coffee and cream satisfies that.
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  #22   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 13:37
foxgluvs's Avatar
foxgluvs foxgluvs is offline
From Flab to Fab!
Posts: 11,752
 
Plan: Fat Flush / SB
Stats: 300/225/185 Female 5ft 8"
BF:No Thanks
Progress: 65%
Location: UK
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Quote:
cayenne tea, that stuff is amazing


What is cayenne tea, where do you get it and what is amazing about it.....? I'm genuinely interested
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  #23   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 14:21
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobi-p
However, my one non-natural food vice is coffee with cream. I have an occasional sweet tooth, especially when I'm tired and the coffee and cream satisfies that.
That is my situation exactly... and coffee with heavy whipping cream seems to take care of my "sweet tooth".

And... BEAR! WHAT A FABULOUS POST! You are truly an inspiration! A living proof of what I have been suspecting ever since reading "Life Without Bread"!... and anything else on the damaging nature of insulin! Bravo to you, Bear!!!!!!! I have a freezer full of meat, and might just adopt your style of eating for a while. And, to be totally honest, the ONLY time I have ever seen my weight and body fat easily fall to the levels that were healthy for me, was when I ate as you do, with a very small amount of really low carb veggies. I did this for like a month, just to "cure my sugar addiction/do induction to get started on LC/etc."... and during that one month that I kept this diet up, I was able to lose weight and body fat effortlessly! And, the only reason I started eating nuts and berries and other carbs was cuz I thought it was necessary for health! And, just as soon as I did, my body fat started to go right back up! I am SO EXCITED to read your post... you have no idea! WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN???!!!!!!! PLEASE stick around!!!!!!!
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  #24   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 14:56
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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This is FUNNY! I was looking over theBear's web site, and found his discussion of diet and exercise, and I thought "hey, I've read this before!"

And, I had read it before, and actually was telling folks about it on this post! From 2 1/2 years ago!

It's a small cyber world, huh?!
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  #25   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 15:18
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,512
 
Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern California
Default This has to be my all time favorite thread!

I pray, hope, and would even give away 1/4 of my soul for any kind of empirical scientific research stipulating that plant food consumption isn't necessary for optimal health.

I disdain, loath, and find ALL veggies the nastiest tasting stuff imaginable. Every serving of veggie I eat ruins the rest of my dinner.

Even the smallest excuse, I'd try this diet in a heartbeat. For me, it would require no effort to cut out veggies! Even now, forcing myself to eat a single serving a day is a monumental effort that I'd much rather do without.

Veggies not being necessary for optimal health would something too wonderful to be true, but I would readily embrace it. After 3 years of this, I am all too ready to take a year off eating any veggies what so ever.

Nice to see that I'm not alone, and there are others who dislike veggies too!

With kindest regards,

Frederick

Last edited by Frederick : Sun, Feb-26-06 at 15:25.
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  #26   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 15:27
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Wow! I can't believe so many people don't like veggies. I love them.
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  #27   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 15:31
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,512
 
Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Wow! I can't believe so many people don't like veggies. I love them.


This is mind boggling to me. LOL

Just curious, what do you like about them? The benefits? You can't like the way they taste, can you?
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  #28   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 15:35
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I love the taste. You might be a super taster. They can taste things in foods most of us can't. Usually they hate the ones in the cabbage family most (including broccoli and cabbage). Do they taste bitter to you?

To me I just taste a wonderful medley of rich, complex flavors. Hard to describe. Lets see, I had asparagus for lunch. I was munching it raw, but cooked it up with lemon and butter. How to describe... aw I can't. I'll just sound like one of those wine snobs saying stupid things like "floral" and "oaky".

My favorite ones are brussel sprouts, winter squash, asparagus, broccoli, savoy cabbage, artichokes.
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  #29   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 15:40
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,512
 
Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern California
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I love the taste. You might be a super taster. They can taste things in foods most of us can't. Usually they hate the ones in the cabbage family most (including broccoli and cabbage). Do they taste bitter to you?



Yes, broccoli and cabbage taste especially bitter to me. Even if I drown cheese on them, I instantly taste that inherent bitterness that all veggies have, especially broccoli and cabbage.

The only veggies I can think of that doesn't taste bitter are onions and tomatoes (I don't care if some consider it a fruit since I lump all foods from the dirt into a single category--plant foods).
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  #30   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 15:57
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Yup, you're probably a super taster then. Well, blame your veggie hatred on your genes! Presumably the part of the population that really hate them, 10,000 years ago, didn't entirely die out! However, they're something like 25% of the population, so maybe it isn't the best trait to have? Hard to say.
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