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  #16   ^
Old Fri, Sep-30-11, 12:23
Sue333 Sue333 is offline
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Plan: Paleo/Primal
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Shows like this are interesting and can be educational, but they are also stunts...to take 10 thoroughly modern people and expect them to live (and thrive) as cave-people is ridiculous. Hardly any of us have the skills that real cavepeople would have been raised with...we don't have the intestinal flora to deal with untreated water, uncooked meat, etc., etc...we don't have the muscle mass and sheer stamina of a cave person either! I wonder about cavepeople's social structure as well...were women subservient? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know...I do know however that as a modern woman I am not subservient to anyone, and would have a hard time behaving that way...I could go on, but I think I've made my point!
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  #17   ^
Old Sat, Oct-01-11, 05:56
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
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Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline
It should prove interesting, but I don't like the question it poses. Would we be better off as cavemen. That's silly. You just have to look at some of the remaning hunter gatherer tribes to answer that question. At least they are thoroughly adapted to their environment. I can't say the same about a bunch of city slickers playing caveman re-enactment. Anyway, I think the answer to that question would be yes and no. Some aspects of life was better and some not.


Indeed, as evidenced by the use of antibiotics in the show. Most 'cavemen' deaths would not have been from old age, but from accidents, injuries, infections, childbirth and subsequent complications (mother and baby), paediatric illness etc etc. Modern medicine has become really good at treating these things. Just because the general diet may be healthier, doesn't mean the life was.

Lee
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  #18   ^
Old Sat, Oct-01-11, 07:59
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Quote:
In addition to Lipman, Stanford boasts an unusual concentration of wilderness-medicine specialists, including Paul Auerbach, MD, considered the foremost living expert in the field. (His Wilderness Medicine, which Lipman described as the discipline’s bible, is soon coming out in its sixth edition.) Robert Norris, MD, chief of emergency medicine at Stanford, is one of the world’s leading authorities on venomous bites and stings. Lipman is associate director of Stanford’s wilderness medicine fellowship. When the program launched in 2003, it was the first in the nation.

I bet these wilderness medicine-men know far less than the average New Guinea Highlands hunter & gatherer about such things.
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  #19   ^
Old Sat, Oct-01-11, 13:28
Felicie Felicie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
Indeed, as evidenced by the use of antibiotics in the show. Most 'cavemen' deaths would not have been from old age, but from accidents, injuries, infections, childbirth and subsequent complications (mother and baby), paediatric illness etc etc. Modern medicine has become really good at treating these things. Just because the general diet may be healthier, doesn't mean the life was.

Lee


I also remember reading that they misdiagnosed the ages of the hunter-gatherers' skeletons. They judged their ages by the amount of osteoporosis in the bones. But the thing was that because of their diet they were less likely to suffer from osteoporosis, so those who they thought were 40 were actually more like 80. I can't remember now where I read it. Maybe someone here has the link to that research.
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  #20   ^
Old Sat, Oct-01-11, 14:39
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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That sounds strange. Don't they use carbon dating to date skeletons?
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  #21   ^
Old Sat, Oct-01-11, 14:52
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freckles freckles is offline
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I'll probably watch it, just because I'm curious.
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  #22   ^
Old Sat, Oct-01-11, 15:17
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RawNut RawNut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline
That sounds strange. Don't they use carbon dating to date skeletons?


She means estimating the age at death. Carbon dating will tell you how old the skeleton is but not how old it was when it died.
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  #23   ^
Old Sat, Oct-01-11, 16:24
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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doh. of course, that was very blonde of me
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  #24   ^
Old Sat, Oct-01-11, 17:01
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sollyb sollyb is offline
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removed by author, who isn't sure what she thought she was replying to, LOL.

Last edited by sollyb : Sat, Oct-01-11 at 17:07.
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  #25   ^
Old Sun, Oct-02-11, 05:53
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Mark's Daily Apple speculates a lot about this subject, (obviously since he advocates a Primal Diet.) It doesn't make sense to look at the average, since cavemen had a staggering infant mortality rate, and indeed, so did every single human culture prior to 1900.

One factor that does leap out, in every study of hunter-gatherers, is the lack of degenerative disease. Cancer, rheumatism, heart disease, osteoporosis; all these banes of growing older that our culture takes for granted is all attributable to our diet which not only plays havoc with our metabolism, but is actually too low in many nutrients. Grain phytates block B vitamins and minerals, tubers have very little nutrient content compared to meat, sugar drains the body of brain chemicals that need new nutrients to build; it all adds up to a hyper-caloric but low-nutrient diet that keeps us alive, but at a low level of health.
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  #26   ^
Old Sun, Oct-02-11, 06:48
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
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Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
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I saw an archeology programme the other day, where they found evidence of paleolithic cannabalism, probably of the dead, they also believed that the skull had been deliberately scalped and cut open in such a way, that they could use the top as a cup/bowl.

Not sure what relevance it has to this discussion - except I just remembered and found it interesting.

Lee
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  #27   ^
Old Mon, Oct-03-11, 14:27
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Thomas1492 Thomas1492 is offline
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So I watched this show last night,both episodes were interesting and very entertaining to watch!! It certainly showed that,the tribe had to act as a group to be successful,and unless you are fortunate to live in a tropical area with coconut,tubers and fruit,your main diet was meat,and when you didn't find any, then Dandelion greens,Cattails,wild leeks,mushrooms..I also saw that those who do not do their share of work,hold back the others and are a useless drain on resources..Unfortunately there was no "Tribal Law" in the show to deal with slackers,but I imagine in reality those who did not work,did not eat...Why is there in every single group a Drama Queen??I was so damn glad to see her give up and walk off the project!!I imagine the first thing she did was enjoy a Soy latte...
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  #28   ^
Old Tue, Oct-11-11, 12:01
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Demi Demi is offline
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Quote:
NU prof finds that modern humans can survive as cavemen

Anthropology chair and Weinberg prof. William Leonard was featured on a Discovery Channel show considering whether modern-day humans could adapt to a Paleolithic diet and lifestyle. "I, Caveman," which aired Oct. 2, followed 10 people for 10 days as they lived as cavemen and cavewomen in high-altitude Colorado.

"They wanted to ask the question of how well or how poorly modern humans can make it as Paleolithic hunter-gatherers," Leonard said.

He said he expected the participants to have difficulty without the proper skills needed to handle the scarcity of food and heavier daily workload.

The six men and four women were trained on the basics of survival for a couple of days prior to the show. They learned tips on building fires and identifying safe foods to eat. Once on the show, they were given cloth and fur garments to wear and use when building their sleeping quarters. The participants acquired their own food following a Paleolithic diet of vegetables, roots, nuts, fruits, meats and fish. For the first few days of the show, the participants found minimal natural food resources to eat and were unsuccessful in hunting game to cook.

Leonard and other experts involved in the show served as commentators observing the participants' interactions.

"One of the things I thought was going to be an issue, and proved to be the case, was the social part of it," Leonard said.

He said the group was not able to fully recreate the cohesion necessary to form a successful caveman society. Often times, members of the group would get frustrated with the lack of food but would refuse to help find more resources.

Only eight of the 10 participants stayed the full 10 days, Leonard said.

"When you look at traditional forging societies, what is true is obviously they have a lot more knowledge of their environment," he said. "But they also work together on their environment as a group, hunting and gathering to bring back resources to be shared."

Todd Surovell, professor of archaeology at the University of Wyoming, also served as an expert on the show. He agreed the group suffered from a lack of background knowledge about natural resources.

"They would walk past food that was edible all the time," he said. "And even when they went foraging, they didn't put enough effort into it. Then, as they would lose weight, they would lose the ability to forage even more. It was a downward spiral."

Aaron Miller, a doctoral candidate in anthropology at Northwestern, helped collect baseline data and track biological changes and health factors to evaluate the participants' level of survival.

"We were really interested in the health effects it would create," Miller said. "We wanted to know how much weight they would lose, those type of things."

On average, female participants lost 10.3 pounds, while male participants lost 15.8 pounds over 10 days, according to a report released by the experts.

"We expected a lot of weight loss," Miller said. "Especially at the beginning when they had trouble finding things to eat."

The participants all experienced an improvement in blood pressure, cholesterol, blood glucose, and hemoglobin, which increased due to the high altitude.

The experts were also surprised to see participants' grip strength remained unchanged despite their extensive weight loss.

The show, Leonard said, highlighted many of the health problems that are a result of big issues in modern lifestyle, including the imbalance of diet and daily activity.

"This underscored just how different life was then, compared to how we live today," he said.

Surovell said it is important to realize everyone has ancestors who lived this way only 12,000 years ago.

"We tend to think about prehistoric people as simpletons and as lesser than we are now," he said. "But they were people just like us living in a different context."
http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/mo...vemen-1.2649500
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  #29   ^
Old Tue, Oct-11-11, 13:22
Angeline's Avatar
Angeline Angeline is offline
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Plan: Atkins (loosely)
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I finally got around to watching this. Some parts were quite head-shakers. One of the girl, refused to eat any meat after the group managed to bring down an Elk. She claimed she was doing fine on the weird green stuff she was toasting? over the fire. In a real life survival situation she wouldn't have lasted another week.

The kill scene was very sad and moving. Everyone was either crying or close to tears. Even the men. Even Robb Wolf. (later during a cut scene) One of the girls, the bounty hunter, did a beautiful and heartfelt prayer thanking the animal for its life. I'll admit that I more than misted up. Everyone felt it though, the connection to the animal, the sorrow and the necessity of the death. We lost that nowadays, so disconnected we are from the animals that feed us.

There was a minimum of manufactured drama, which was refreshing. They did focus on the bounty hunter woman, when she had a bit of a snit fit over being cold. But she was probably suffering from mild hypothermia. She proved to be tough and resilient later on. The only other drama was Amy, the designer. What she was doing among this group, I don't know. She was the weakness link, and would have been voted off, the first day, had this been that kind of thing. She mostly just laid around, complaining of being hungry. I didn't see her contribute much. The second to leave what the self-style "hunter". He was just frustrated with his lack of success, and maybe the expectations that he should be the one to bring back game. He also complained. A lot. Things seemed to go much smoother after he left.

The only manufactured drama was from Spurlock with this vendetta against a muskrat he wasn't able to catch. That bit was just tossed in because he was the "host" and to add a bit of humor to the show. It didn't really work that well.


What I took away from the show, apart from that really moving scene of the hunt, was both how prepared and unprepared the group was. Granted, they weren't exactly plucked from a supermarket, but they proved pretty resilient. One of the commentator from the show expressed surprise that they ultimately were able to bring down big game in a fairly short amount of time with very primitive weapons. I guess he didn't know that Robb Wolf had been practicing with it for weeks prior to the show. Still. It was an amazing throw, and a really amazing kill. The Elk was downed very quickly and they didn't even have to chase him down.

However it was in the back of my head that would have this been a real survival situation with no hope of immediate rescue, the group would not have lasted through their first winter.
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  #30   ^
Old Wed, Oct-12-11, 10:50
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sollyb sollyb is offline
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Plan: modified Peat
Stats: 202/214/180 Female 62.5 inches
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Quote:
He said the group was not able to fully recreate the cohesion necessary to form a successful caveman society.


Well the above just shows how deeply the inventors of this "experiment" are embedded in their own modern "want results yesterday" culture. They expected a cohesive cooperative group to form in 10 days? Insane!
sol
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