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  #61   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 13:45
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Posts: 4,815
 
Plan: My Own
Stats: 280/118/117.5 Female 5ft 5.25 in
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As for the argument re: Atkins Nutritionals and net carbs, as has been said the net carbs concept was created under Dr. Atkins and was originally used to describe carbohydrate sources that gave no energy and therefore did not affect blood sugar, such as fiber.

However it was soon changed to include carbs that did contain energy which can affect blood sugar, but were modified to be absorbed slowly. Personally I think the net carb concept is a little misleading when applied to sugar alcohols, because I do feel sugar alcohols affect blood sugar. Maybe not as much as real carbs, but to say a candy bar which contains 20 sugar alcohols is actually 0 carbs is just simply misleading. I personally can lose while eating these products in moderation, but some people seem to have problems with them.

Strictly applying the net carbs concept to sugar alcohols was irresponsible of Atkins Nutritionals, imo. What they should have done was count 4 grams of sugar alcohols as 1 real carb, or figure out a system like that which really works.

Lets face it, by saying a candy bar has 1 net carb people are going to think they can eat them every day and they will not lose weight. At the very least what they should do is put a warning on the bars which say they are to be eaten sparingly...
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  #62   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 14:01
songwritur songwritur is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 224/217/200 Male 6'0"
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thank you my fit day for pointing out the hypocrisy of the new 20% saturated fat waffling by the clowns now running turn over in his grave atkins company. To the other commenters, You are right about the net carb thing however I want to see scientific studies that fiber carbohydrates and be almost considered 0 carbs I just don't believe that and I don't think dr Atkins did either.
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  #63   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 14:05
songwritur songwritur is offline
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Posts: 7
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 224/217/200 Male 6'0"
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As for the argument re: Atkins Nutritionals and net carbs, as has been said the net carbs concept was created under Dr. Atkins and was originally used to describe carbohydrate sources that gave no energy and therefore did not affect blood sugar, such as fiber.

I believe everything fitday is saying about ATKINS Nutritionals and Ill bet this waffling is going to bank rupt this company its a shame too just as mainstream doctors were coming on board
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  #64   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 14:08
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
I want to see scientific studies that fiber carbohydrates and be almost considered 0 carbs I just don't believe that and I don't think dr Atkins did either.


http://www.medfriendly.com/dietaryfiber.html
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/002470.htm
http://health.yahoo.com/health/ency...a/002470/0.html
http://www.henryfordhealth.org/13338.cfm

See also: Atkins For Life (which Dr. Atkins wrote), pp 36-37:

"When you do Atkins, fiber offers another bonus: it allows you to enjoy some extra carbs-without exceeding your ACE, your threshhold for carb intake without gaining weight. What's the secret? Net Carbs. Her's how they work: in the most simple terms, dietary fiber is nothing more than carbohydrates that the body cannot break down and convert to blood sugar."

Last edited by Lisa N : Sun, Jan-18-04 at 14:19.
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  #65   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 14:10
ellemenno's Avatar
ellemenno ellemenno is offline
Lurking LowCarber
Posts: 296
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 203/182/150 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: DFW area, TX
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I agree completely with ItsTheWooo about the sugar alcohols as that truly is a YMMV type thing. I try to stay away from sugar alcohols in a large quantity as some of them (haven't determined which as of yet) tend to wreak havoc with my stomach.

As for fiber, it has been widely accepted by many dieticians, including the entire ADA, as being a "good carb" and one that has fairly low impact (if any) on blood sugar levels. It is better to eat fruits and vegetables with a higher fiber content, as these normally tend to have more nutritional value and fewer empty or useless calories.

Then again, I'm no scientist...



And... many thanks to Lisa N for such wonderful links and one of the many quotes I was trying to remember!!

Last edited by ellemenno : Sun, Jan-18-04 at 15:36.
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  #66   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 14:22
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
Fully Caffeinated
Posts: 17,245
 
Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
BF:?/35/?
Progress: 51%
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Please bear with me..I feel like such a slow learner...but the net carb concept is in my DANDR book, including the info on sugar alcohols....and it was published BEFORE his death..so how could he NOT have approved it?
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  #67   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 15:28
MyJourney's Avatar
MyJourney MyJourney is offline
Butter Tastes Better
Posts: 5,201
 
Plan: Atkins OWL / IF-23/1 /BFL
Stats: 100/100/100 Female 5'6"
BF:
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Location: SF Bay Area
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I think the most controversial thing about Atkins is the theory that you can eat saturated fat and decent amounts of it and it wont kill you. In fact it is healthy and beneficial to do so.

Even when you read articles that try to be positive they still have to mention something about all that yucky saturated fat. Those harmful saturated fats etc.

By Atkins nutritionals now changing their tune they pretty much said yes we agree saturated fats aren't good for you. All you skeptics were correct.

I feel betrayed in the sense that I have told so many about the benefits of fat and yes saturated fat.
Coconuts, meat, butter, cheese, mayonnaise, avocados etc. And people would look at me like I had 3 heads.

A friend of mine began Atkins a month or so ago. She read through the books and was doing well but was deathly afraid of fats, especially saturated. Her father had a very difficult time struggling with heart disease and all she remembers is cutting out all the fat in her diet as a child, especially saturated fat. She was so fearful of it. I finally got her to unlearn all that she was brainwashed to believe and she just started feeling better and eating more fats and all of a sudden this comes out and she is freaked out. She wants to know why the sudden limit on saturated fat. What makes saturated fats so evil now, and frankly, I would like to know too.


Ever since this article all I am hearing and will be for some time I suppose is you see, saturated fats aren't good for you. You see, Atkins says you shouldn't eat so much fat etc.

People want to hear negative, they want to hear negative about Atkins they want to hear fat is bad they want to be assured that saturated fat is really as horrible as they thought. That saturated fat is this artery clogging evil and the article was written to get just that type of reaction.

I get a variety of fats in my diet. I eat olive oil, avocados, chicken, meat, eggs etc. my saturated fat for the past week is around 31% I am sure there are weeks where its lower and weeks where its higher. I have no intentions of changing that.

I usually average 65-70% fat 25-30% protein and 5% carbs.

I have never felt better in my life and I am looking better with each day that passes.
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  #68   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 15:59
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Plan: LC paleo/ancestral
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
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Location: Eastern ON, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potatofree
Please bear with me..I feel like such a slow learner...but the net carb concept is in my DANDR book, including the info on sugar alcohols....and it was published BEFORE his death..so how could he NOT have approved it?

Actually, the idea of subtracting fiber grams from the total carb count did not originate with the Atkins program. The Drs. Eades introduced the concept of "effective carbohydrates" with Protein Power, which was published in 1995. It wasn't until late in 2000 that Atkins officially sanctioned subtracting fiber grams from total carb counts .. Before that time, the old Atkins website (which had a complete overhaul in Dec 2001) simply stated to count total carbs, end of story.

It was within that same time period that the FDA and food label regulators began making the move to more accurate nutrition labels, and that included listing fiber as a separate entity from the total carbs. In addition, the FDA also cracked down on manufacturers of SF candies and protein bars, because sugar alcohols and glycerine weren't appearing in the nutrition data at all. They were just being listed as an ingredient

IMO, the effective/net carbs concept is definitely accurate as far as fiber is concerned. As for s/a's and glycerine .. it's a good theory in principle, but in practise it's still YMMV.


Doreen
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  #69   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 19:45
SummerYet's Avatar
SummerYet SummerYet is offline
Reinventing Myself
Posts: 11,768
 
Plan: Doctor's Plan
Stats: */*/* Female 5 ft 3 in
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Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
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Quote:
..and if this gets more doctors to put their patients on Atkins, how could it be a bad thing?



Because they are giving misleading and untrue information, selling out, and totally alienating all of us who have followed this diet before it became a "FAD"?? Just a thought...

~Michelle

Last edited by SummerYet : Sun, Jan-18-04 at 19:47.
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  #70   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 19:56
RoseTattoo's Avatar
RoseTattoo RoseTattoo is offline
Kid R
Posts: 1,168
 
Plan: Maintenance
Stats: // Female 5"1'
BF:Too darn much!
Progress: 90%
Location: PA
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But here's a funny thing. I decided today I'd see exactly what percentage of sat fats I normally eat. I tracked everything in Fitday, which I usually don't bother to do, and ate my usual foods. I'm on maintenance and exercise very vigorously, so I allow myself 60 or more grams of carbs a day.

The surprising thing was that while I ate about 55% of my calories as fat, only 15% were from sat fat, and that was without trying to change anything.

I think that what Doreen wrote earlier is worth underlining--even red meat has about 40% of its fat as polyunsaturates (hope I quoted you right, Doreen). Cheese, heavy cream--both contain a sizeable proportion of polyunsaturated fat. So you'd have to eat an awful lot of those in order to amass a whole lot more than 20% of your calories as sat fat. By the time you get to the later phases of Atkins, it shouldn't be much of a problem at all, I would think.
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  #71   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 19:59
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
Fully Caffeinated
Posts: 17,245
 
Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
BF:?/35/?
Progress: 51%
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...and that would affect the changes in their health and welfare HOW, though?

I hear a lot of talk here about it being wrong and unrue, and how others are going to point and laugh at those who know sat fats aren't evil... but if the new guidelines make it friendly to more doctors, who put more patients on it, saving their LIVES....I don't see a crime being committed!

When push comes to shove, it's going to be a good, healthy plan either way.

There was likely the same kind of abject horror among the followers of the '72 plan when Atkins added more veggies and updated his plan. (And I know most of you will keep pointing out to me the fact that "he" didn't have control of this change, and that's a fact. )

I'm sorry that I don't understand how horrible this is. I'm just glad more people might be given the lifesaving gift of low-carb, even if it means they don't eat all the red meat they want.
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  #72   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 20:05
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potatofree
I hear a lot of talk here about it being wrong and unrue, and how others are going to point and laugh at those who know sat fats aren't evil... but if the new guidelines make it friendly to more doctors, who put more patients on it, saving their LIVES....I don't see a crime being committed!
Simple. Doctors are not idiots. They have more access to the research data than we do.

The fact is, many doctors already put their patients on low-carb, particularly Atkins.

Those doctors who already have negative opinions on Atkins, won't change their minds based on new marketing spin. Most likely it will make them even more suspicious.

You can't "trick" people into doing things all the time

Wa'il
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  #73   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 20:09
Samuel Samuel is offline
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Posts: 1,200
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 200/176/176 Male 5' 8"
BF:
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The smallest pack of heavy milk cream contains 48 grams of saturated fats.

If you are currently consuming 1500 calories daily, 20% of that means 300 calories. Since each gram of fat gives 9 calories, your limit of saturated fats/day should be 33.3 grams.

So you can't consume one pack of cream in one day.
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  #74   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 20:32
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
The fact is, many doctors already put their patients on low-carb, particularly Atkins.

Those doctors who already have negative opinions on Atkins, won't change their minds based on new marketing spin. Most likely it will make them even more suspicious.


Not only that, but with the current AHA recommendations being no more than 10% of your daily fat intake be saturated fat, those doctors that feel Atkins is too high in saturated fat and follow AHA protocol still won't recommend it to their patients so I really can't see this influencing more doctors, especially those that have a negative opininon of Atkins already, to recommend it to their patients. Moreover, most of those doctors will still feel that Atkins is too high in fats overall (50%-65% of daily caloric intake) regardless of the saturated fat being 20%. So....what does that leave us with? A marketing tactic to win back those (dieters, not doctors) that may have chosen South Beach over Atkins because of the saturated fat issue. One that I feel may backfire on them worse than they ever imagined.
The fact is, there are many low carb plans from which to choose and one doesn't have to have a high saturated fat intake to follow any of them if you choose not to. Another fact is that those who choose to lose weight don't do it on the recommendation of their doctors, but word of mouth or seeing someone else being successful with weight loss or just deciding for themselves that they need to drop some weight. How many people actually see a doctor before beginning any weight loss plan despite recommendations to do so? Very few, I'd bet, unless they already have an existing health issue that requires regular visits to their doctor.
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  #75   ^
Old Sun, Jan-18-04, 20:55
MyJourney's Avatar
MyJourney MyJourney is offline
Butter Tastes Better
Posts: 5,201
 
Plan: Atkins OWL / IF-23/1 /BFL
Stats: 100/100/100 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: SF Bay Area
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Today my Sat fat was 20% 3 days ago it was 33%

My calories that day were 1330

Total: 1330
Fat: 102 919 70%
Sat: 48 430 33%
Poly: 11 95 7%
Mono: 33 295 22%


My fat intake that day happened to be higher because I made ziplock baggie ice cream and had half a cup of cream

on top of that I had 2 slices of cheese, Mayo, olive oil a hamburger (extra lean) and boneless skinless chicken breast as my main sources of fat for that day.

it isnt about consuming one pack of cream in a day but a variety of foods.
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