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  #166   ^
Old Sat, Apr-27-13, 10:56
Warren D Warren D is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 331
 
Plan: Fatty meat
Stats: 135/135/135 Male 166
BF:11%
Progress:
Location: Ibiza, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Quote:
Ignore this lesson and you are likely to suffer the completely avoidable problems of headache, fatigue, weakness and constipation—maladies that any Inuit healer would have promptly resolved by giving you a bowl of blood soup, or meat broth made with sea ice of the proper age.
Can I find these in these in the Low-Carb recipes forums?

I don't think I used salt for about 20 years or more. I often felt dizzy when getting up from the floor or the ground (My job meant that I was doing a lot of things like laying paving etc). It was only in the last few years that I found out that I should be using more salt. Nowadays I only very rarely get one of those dizzy spells

Last edited by Warren D : Sat, Apr-27-13 at 11:05.
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  #167   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 01:06
bike2work bike2work is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,536
 
Plan: Fung-inspired fasting
Stats: 336/000/160 Female 5' 9"
BF:
Progress: 191%
Location: Seattle metro area
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/15/h...zo2/oTsXFg&_r=0

Quote:
No Benefit Seen in Sharp Limits on Salt in Diet
By GINA KOLATA
Published: May 14, 2013

In a report that undercuts years of public health warnings, a prestigious group convened by the government says there is no good reason based on health outcomes for many Americans to drive their sodium consumption down to the very low levels recommended in national dietary guidelines.

Those levels, 1,500 milligrams of sodium a day, or a little more than half a teaspoon of salt, were supposed to prevent heart attacks and strokes in people at risk, including anyone older than 50, blacks and people with high blood pressure, diabetes or chronic kidney disease — groups that make up more than half of the American population.

Some influential organizations, including the American Heart Association, have said that everyone, not just those at risk, should aim for that very low sodium level. The heart association reaffirmed that position in an interview with its spokesman on Monday, even in light of the new report.

But the new expert committee, commissioned by the Institute of Medicine at the behest of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said there was no rationale for anyone to aim for sodium levels below 2,300 milligrams a day. The group examined new evidence that had emerged since the last such report was issued, in 2005.

“As you go below the 2,300 mark, there is an absence of data in terms of benefit and there begin to be suggestions in subgroup populations about potential harms,” said Dr. Brian L. Strom, chairman of the committee and a professor of public health at the University of Pennsylvania. He explained that the possible harms included increased rates of heart attacks and an increased risk of death.

The committee was not asked to specify an optimal amount of sodium and did not make any recommendations about how much people should consume. Dr. Strom said people should not eat too much salt, but he also said that the data on the health effects of sodium were too inconsistent for the committee to say what the upper limit of sodium consumption should be.

Until about 2006, almost all studies on salt and health outcomes relied on the well-known fact that blood pressure can drop slightly when people eat less salt. From that, and from other studies linking blood pressure to risks of heart attacks and strokes, researchers created models showing how many lives could be saved if people ate less salt.

The United States dietary guidelines, based on the 2005 Institute of Medicine report, recommend that the general population aim for sodium levels of 1,500 to 2,300 milligrams a day because those levels will not raise blood pressure. The average sodium consumption in the United States, and around the world, is about 3,400 milligrams a day, according to the Institute of Medicine — an amount that has not changed in decades.

But more recently, researchers began looking at the actual consequences of various levels of salt consumption, as found in rates of heart attacks, strokes and death, not just blood pressure readings. Some of what they found was troubling.

One 2008 study the committee examined, for example, randomly assigned 232 Italian patients with aggressively treated moderate to severe congestive heart failure to consume either 2,760 or 1,840 milligrams of sodium a day, but otherwise to consume the same diet. Those consuming the lower level of sodium had more than three times the number of hospital readmissions — 30 as compared with 9 in the higher-salt group — and more than twice as many deaths — 15 as compared with 6 in the higher-salt group.

Another study , published in 2011, followed 28,800 subjects with high blood pressure ages 55 and older for 4.7 years and analyzed their sodium consumption by urinalysis. The researchers reported that the risks of heart attacks, strokes, congestive heart failure and death from heart disease increased significantly for those consuming more than 7,000 milligrams of sodium a day and for those consuming fewer than 3,000 milligrams of sodium a day.

There are physiological consequences of consuming little sodium, said Dr. Michael H. Alderman, a dietary sodium expert at Albert Einstein College of Medicine who was not a member of the committee. As sodium levels plunge, triglyceride levels increase, insulin resistance increases, and the activity of the sympathetic nervous system increases. Each of these factors can increase the risk of heart disease.

“Those are all bad things,” Dr. Alderman said. “A health effect can’t be predicted by looking at one physiological consequence. There has to be a net effect.”

Medical and public health experts responded to the new assessment of the evidence with elation or concern, depending on where they stand in the salt debates.

“What they have done is earth-shattering,” Dr. Alderman said. “They have changed the paradigm of this issue. Until now it was all about blood pressure. Now they say it is more complicated.” The report, he predicted, “will have a big impact.”

But Bonnie Liebman, director of nutrition at the Center for Science in the Public Interest, an advocacy group that has taken a strong position against excessive salt consumption, worried that the public would get the wrong message.

“It would be a shame if this report convinced people that salt doesn’t matter,” Ms. Liebman said.

The American Heart Association agrees with her. Dr. Elliott Antman, a spokesman for the association and a professor of medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital n Boston, said the association remained concerned about the large amount of sodium in processed foods, which makes it almost impossible for most Americans to cut back. People should aim for 1,500 milligrams of sodium a day, he said.

“The American Heart Association is not changing its position,” Dr. Antman said. The association rejects the Institute of Medicine’s conclusions because the studies on which they were based had methodological flaws, he said. The heart association’s advice to consume 1,500 milligrams of sodium a day, he added, is based on epidemiological data and studies that assessed the effects of sodium consumption on blood pressure.

The Institute of Medicine committee said it was well aware of flaws in many of the studies of sodium, especially ones that the previous Institute of Medicine committee relied on for its 2005 recommendations. Much of that earlier research, committee members said, looked for correlations between what people ate and their health. But people with different diets can differ in many ways that are hard to account for — for example, the amount of exercise they get. And relying on people’s recall of how much salt they consumed can be unreliable.

Even the ways previous studies defined high and low sodium consumption varied widely.

“In one study, it was high if it hit 2,700 milligrams a day. In another study, it was high if it hit 10,000 milligrams a day,” said Cheryl A. M. Anderson, a committee member who is an associate professor of family and preventive medicine at the University of California, San Diego.

The committee said it found more recent studies, published since 2005, that were more careful and rigorous. Much of the new research found adverse effects on the lower end of the sodium scale and none showed a benefit from consuming very little salt.

Although the advice to restrict sodium to 1,500 milligrams a day has been enshrined in dietary guidelines, it never came from research on health outcomes, Dr. Strom said. Instead, it is the lowest sodium consumption can go if a person eats enough food to get sufficient calories and nutrients to live on. As for the 2,300-milligram level, that was the highest sodium levels could go before blood pressure began inching up.

In its 2005 report, the Institute of Medicine’s committee said that sodium consumption between 1,500 and 2,300 milligrams a day would not raise blood pressure.

That range, Dr. Strom said, “was taken by other groups and set in stone.” Those other groups included the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health and Human Services, which formulated dietary guidelines in 2005.

But those dietary guidelines will soon be revised, with new recommendations to be issued in 2015.

Last edited by bike2work : Wed, May-15-13 at 01:21.
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  #168   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 01:09
bike2work bike2work is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,536
 
Plan: Fung-inspired fasting
Stats: 336/000/160 Female 5' 9"
BF:
Progress: 191%
Location: Seattle metro area
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/15/o....html?src=rechp

Quote:
EDITORIAL
Doubts About Restricting Salt
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD
Published: May 14, 2013

After years of warnings to cut sodium consumption to reduce heart attacks and strokes, it is disturbing to learn how little evidence exists that such reductions would actually be beneficial to health. There is even emerging evidence that some groups in the population could suffer harm from levels that are too low.

The current average sodium intake in the United States is about 3,400 milligrams a day, equivalent to about 1 1/2 teaspoons of salt. Dietary guidelines recommend that the average be reduced to 2,300 for the general population and 1,500 for subgroups deemed at greater risk, including adults older than 50, African-Americans, and people with high blood pressure, diabetes or chronic kidney disease.

Those broad guidelines, which do not necessarily apply to individual patients, were based on research that showed that lowering sodium intake reduces high blood pressure, a widely accepted surrogate for risk of cardiovascular disease and stroke. But, in recent years, a slew of studies have focused on actual health outcomes, not blood pressure levels, with perplexing results.

The Institute of Medicine, at the request of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, appointed a committee of experts to review the new studies. It found that the outcomes data, admittedly sparse and limited, do not support lowering sodium intake to 1,500 milligrams a day for the subgroups at risk and that some of these groups might suffer adverse health effects at that level; it found insufficient evidence that dipping below 2,300 would decrease the risk of disease. Even so, the American Heart Association stood by the very low level.

The panel did not conclude that the average intake of 3,400 milligrams a day is necessarily risky. Instead, it called for more vigorous research to clarify an issue that is sure to be confusing for the public.
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  #169   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 01:16
bike2work bike2work is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,536
 
Plan: Fung-inspired fasting
Stats: 336/000/160 Female 5' 9"
BF:
Progress: 191%
Location: Seattle metro area
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Don't miss this in the Gina Kolata article:

Quote:
Those consuming the lower level of sodium had more than three times the number of hospital readmissions — 30 as compared with 9 in the higher-salt group — and more than twice as many deaths — 15 as compared with 6 in the higher-salt group.
...
(In another study) researchers reported that the risks of heart attacks, strokes, congestive heart failure and death from heart disease increased significantly for those consuming more than 7,000 milligrams of sodium a day and for those consuming fewer than 3,000 milligrams of sodium a day.
...
“The American Heart Association is not changing its position,” Dr. Antman said.
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  #170   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 01:24
bike2work bike2work is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,536
 
Plan: Fung-inspired fasting
Stats: 336/000/160 Female 5' 9"
BF:
Progress: 191%
Location: Seattle metro area
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By the way, this thread has helped me quite a lot. I've felt a lot better since I've increased my salt and I wasn't even restricting it before.
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  #171   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 06:32
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,324
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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I suspect that many non-LC people who eat "healthy" or paleo are also consuming fewer than 3,000 milligrams of sodium a day, since they are likely to follow the nutritional advice to reduce salt to under 2300 mg or 1500 mg, the lower the better (those who eat fast food & junk food all day don't tend to listen to nutritional advice). No wonder they fall face first into the potato chips when they "go off" their diets. It may also explain why LCers often crave cheese, one of the saltier "permitted" foods for those who tolerate dairy.

I've been making sure I get enough potassium & magnesium and drink plenty of water since I first read Protein Power in 2000, but it wasn't until I read Volek & Phinney last year that I learned of the importance of salt. In the previous 40 years of dieting I never added salt to anything and mostly ate real foods made from scratch. Since I'm not a fan of bouillon or MSG, the first 2 weeks after V&P I actually carried around a tiny vial of salt to make sure I got enough until I trained myself to eyeball how much to add.

Since I've been logging everything I eat into software (DietPower) since 2003, I can see that my food provides only 700-1500 mg/day of sodium, so I've added salt to my "favorite" food list.

Last edited by deirdra : Wed, May-15-13 at 07:21.
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  #172   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 07:33
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Just wanted to point out that Taubes beat Gina Kolata to this by a year or more: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/o...wanted=all&_r=0

Poor salt, we hardly knew you!
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  #173   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 07:41
Daci's Avatar
Daci Daci is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 72
 
Plan: Hflc
Stats: 150/138/130 Female 5 foot 3 inches
BF:
Progress: 60%
Location: Near new Bern NC USA
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The AHA keeps getting it wrong again,again,and again! Any time I see that heart healthy symbol on something, I don't buy it!
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  #174   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 07:59
dcgoodin's Avatar
dcgoodin dcgoodin is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 203
 
Plan: Low Carb
Stats: 231/221/150 Female 64"
BF:39/37/18
Progress: 12%
Location: Newport News, VA
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I agree, the AHA, or the labeling of food that it lowers your cholesteral like "cheerios" - I pay no attention to anymore. It's not like they have an awesome track record and my mom and dad both tried following those guidelines for diabetics, high blood pressure, etc. It didn't do them a bit of good. My mom had high blood pressure her whole adult life and wouldn't ever use a salt shaker, yet it didn't improve her blood pressure, but she followed the rules anyhow. My dad quit eating bacon, sausage, and eggs when his corrotted (SP?) arteries were 80 & 90 percent blocked, but that didn't prevent his triple bypass a decade later...
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  #175   ^
Old Wed, May-15-13, 08:42
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,324
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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It now seems that salt plots like cholesterol with a U-shaped curve of # of deaths on the y-axis versus amount of salt (or cholesterol) on the x-axis. Too much is bad, but too little could kill you too. I can't believe they continued the study as the low-salters were dying at twice the rate of the moderate-salters.

Froot Loops also have AHA healthy heart approval
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  #176   ^
Old Fri, May-17-13, 05:20
mariaelena mariaelena is offline
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Posts: 51
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 280/227/150 Female 5 feet, 2 inches
BF:
Progress: 41%
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Here's a good old-fashioned salt/potassium recipe for you: home-made sauerkraut.

Take a box-grater, and use the slicing side to shred a head of cabbage very fine. (Or just slice fine with a knife.)
Measure the cabbage, and add 2&1/2 tsp salt per quart. Mix the salt through the cabbage thoroughly. Pack into quart jars, and tamp down hard. Check in an hour, to see how much liquid has accumulated--add boiled, salted (and cooled) water to make sure the liquid covers the cabbage. Cap loosely, so the fermentation gases can escape. Allow to sit at room temp for 10 to 14 days, and it's ready. Far better than any sauerkraut you can buy! And full of probiotics!

I like to snack on the salted raw cabbage, before fermentation, too! Crunchy, salty, and oh-so-good!
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  #177   ^
Old Fri, May-17-13, 06:45
yarralea's Avatar
yarralea yarralea is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 568
 
Plan: paleo with L plates
Stats: 180/162/143 Female 160cm
BF:
Progress: 49%
Location: Perth Western Australia
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kALE CHIPS- a great vehicle for salt, and all good things kale.

I tear up kale, toss it around in some EVOO, and then use herbimare- its an organic seasoning which contains other vegies like celery.... or just use sea salt. Dehydrate in a really low oven for a few hours. I set my oven to 70 centigrade. Which is pretty low, however I'm unsure of what the equivalent in Fahrenheit would be. But low. Crispy yummy, salty goodness. I'm making some more now.
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  #178   ^
Old Fri, May-17-13, 08:10
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teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
It now seems that salt plots like cholesterol with a U-shaped curve of # of deaths on the y-axis versus amount of salt (or cholesterol) on the x-axis. Too much is bad, but too little could kill you too. I can't believe they continued the study as the low-salters were dying at twice the rate of the moderate-salters.


Even here, there's no guarantee that the very high salt consumers are hurt by their salt consumption as such--there might be something happening in their bodies that increases salt appetite. Even if smoking and other factors were accounted for, I doubt that subtle hormonal effects on salt consumption would be.

Increased specific appetites for fat, carbohydrate, salt etc., can as easily be a symptom as a cause of disease.
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  #179   ^
Old Fri, May-17-13, 19:03
Kellmarie Kellmarie is offline
New Member
Posts: 1
 
Plan: General low carb
Stats: 145/140/130 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress:
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I crave salt and have for years but then again have been eating low carb for years. I am now on iodine supplements too as my labs showed I was low in iodine. I salt "everything", my children can't even eat something I have put salt on. I don't retain fluid either, you would think I would and my BP has always been low and at times if I feel dizzy (80/40 is not unheard of for me) I will eat salt and feel better. My average BP is 90/70.
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  #180   ^
Old Sat, May-18-13, 16:01
Katfishy's Avatar
Katfishy Katfishy is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 109
 
Plan: 20% Carb
Stats: 180/135/135 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 100%
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Will the salt requirements for someone in ketosis be any different than someone just on a low carb diet but not in ketosis?
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