Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low Carb Health & Technical Forums > Cholesterol, Heart Disease
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Sat, Dec-15-01, 15:59
nottoofat nottoofat is offline
New Member
Posts: 10
 
Plan: Atkins diet 2nd phase
Stats: 206/192/189
BF:
Progress: 82%
Location: Oklahoma City
Question Cholestrol So What do you Believe

I began the Atkins Diet 11/24/2001 and My energy level is up and my weight is going down.



However, I am concerned about my Cholesterol... Actually The main reason I begin this diet was the hope that this might help my numbers. I have tried medication with only minor decreases aprox 25 points from 300. I felt the small amount did not justify the risk.



Are there any studies that might indicate one way or another the chances of reducing Cholesterol with different factors such as body type, age pre-existing heart conditions etc etc.



Any information will be appreciated....





Thomas
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Sat, Dec-15-01, 20:57
r.mines's Avatar
r.mines r.mines is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,383
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 162/124/120 Female 5'1"
BF:
Progress: 90%
Location: Vancouver,BC
Default

Check out the Atkins's New Diet Revolution pp 179-185. For some people, Atkins suggests a low-fat version of his way of eating, plus various supplements, which he lists. Low-carb doesn't have to be high-fat, as he says, and you can also choose to reduce saturated fats and replace them with mono fats, such as olive oil, flax oil, and fish oils (the latter two are high in essential fatty acids). While high-fat low carbing will reduce cholesterol in most people, some have to go the lower-fat route.

There's also some good info in the Eades's Protein Power Lifeplan.

I've been going the lower-fat route, and will let everyone know the news, good or bad, when I have my next tests (which I keep putting off).

Rachel
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Sun, Dec-16-01, 06:52
Oldsalty's Avatar
Oldsalty Oldsalty is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 160
 
Plan: Home grown based on Protein Power
Stats: 194/174/174
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Salt Lake City
Default

There is a contrary view that cholesterol numbers are not the clear indicator for cardiovascular disease that the manufacturers of statins would have us believe. Uffe Ravenskov is a researcher in the field who is very clearly a supporter of this view. His web site is here

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm

I strongly recommend that you not only read his web site, but that you also buy his book which goes into greater depth on the subject.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Tue, Dec-18-01, 19:16
nottoofat nottoofat is offline
New Member
Posts: 10
 
Plan: Atkins diet 2nd phase
Stats: 206/192/189
BF:
Progress: 82%
Location: Oklahoma City
Thumbs up to r.mines and oldsalty

Thanks for the information. I am browsing the web page "oldSalty" , and find it very interesting and informing. If I cannot find his book in the local library I will buy it.



I have had an angioplastic (sp) 18 months ago. My surgeon inserted a stint and all seems well . I am very active now and have been active for years. By the way oldsalty I am 1 month older than you "March the 20th".



As far as my insurance company is concerned(and others), There is very little I can do to clean out the ol veins. So the news that a lowering of cholesterol will probably not help is received with mixed feelings.



I intend to exercise stay on a breadless and sugarless diet from now on. And will continue to research and ask for any ideas. I will still struggle with the "numbers", until something better comes along.



Again Thanks



Thomas
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Tue, Dec-18-01, 22:41
Oldsalty's Avatar
Oldsalty Oldsalty is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 160
 
Plan: Home grown based on Protein Power
Stats: 194/174/174
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Salt Lake City
Default

Please don't think that I am suggesting that this way of eating will not improve your health, I was just responding to the issue of cholesterol and it's supposed relationship to cardiovascular disease. There are many benefits to this way of eating not the least of which is a lower tryglyceride reading, lower blood sugars, and lower insulin, just to name a few. After all the most susceptible people to cardiovascular disease are diabetics who do not control their blood sugars and insulin tightly.
The symptoms that I immediately got under control were.
1 I lost weight
2 My body fat went from 20% plus to 15%
3 I stopped getting indigestion and acid reflux
4 No more giddy spells from low blood sugar
5 No more afternoon dozing off
6 My blood pressure went down to normal
7 My blood sugar readings are pretty constant at 100
And a few other misc. symptoms that just disappeared.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Wed, Dec-19-01, 00:34
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 37,224
 
Plan: LC paleo
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
Lightbulb

hi Thomas,

No, lowering the total cholesterol won't make a huge difference, you're right about that. But ... raising the HDL (the so-called "good cholesterol") by following a carb-restricted diet, exercise and intake of fatty fish oils WILL. In fact, the protectiveness of a high HDL will outweigh the risk of a high total cholesterol level. In spite of their monumental price tag, the statin drugs rarely result in more than 10-15% reduction in total cholesterol.

Oldsalty is right on the money about the many other benefits of lowcarbing. Considering heart disease, lowering your triglyceride level will be more important than cholesterol. You can lower triglycerides by eliminating all sources of sugar .. including white flour, white rice, white potatoes, sweet fruits and juices, etc, etc. Sugar is the "glyceride" part of triglycerides. As well, sugar triggers the release of insulin, and insulin triggers the liver to make more cholesterol.

You might be interested to read this message thread from a man who had a heart attack and bypass surgery at a young age ... and failed to lower his cholesterol and blood pressure afterwards using statin drugs and a lowfat diet. He followed Atkins strictly and to the letter, and within 4 months was off all drugs, lost 30 lbs and cholesterol down by 33%. He has explained very well how the low carb will help in his replies to other members. Click here to read it.

I think you'll find it very reassuring.

Doreen
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Sat, Dec-29-01, 00:26
Oldsalty's Avatar
Oldsalty Oldsalty is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 160
 
Plan: Home grown based on Protein Power
Stats: 194/174/174
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Salt Lake City
Default

Here is an interesting section from a recent article in the U K Telegraph.

In a study conducted at the University of Keio in Tokyo, Japan, the blood cholesterol levels of 75 centenarians were measured against a group of people 40 years younger. The men and women who had made it to 100 had much lower levels of LDL (or "bad") cholesterol than the younger subjects. But equally importantly, the healthier centenarians had higher levels of HDL (or "good") cholesterol than their weaker peers, according to the research published in the Journal of the American Geriatrics Society.
The full article is here.
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/h...17%2Fhfat17.xml
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Sat, Dec-29-01, 01:54
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 37,224
 
Plan: LC paleo
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
Thumbs up

hi Ed,

Great article! Think I'm going to up my intake of avocados and almonds

(although I notice the article makes a point to mention not to gorge on nuts )

Doreen
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Sat, Jan-05-02, 17:33
nottoofat nottoofat is offline
New Member
Posts: 10
 
Plan: Atkins diet 2nd phase
Stats: 206/192/189
BF:
Progress: 82%
Location: Oklahoma City
Talking

To Oldsalty and Dorothy T

I really appreciate your reply; it is a good feeling when folks take their valuable time to help a stranger.

Oldsalty I have experienced your points 1, 3 and 5. That alone has increased my "quality of Life". I struggle with Caffeine and --- of all things beer. I drink about 6 12-ounce cans of the light stuff a week and this along with a caffeine addiction from my navy days is the toughest to quit. Figure! I will continue to try.

Doreen thanks for your timely response to my mail, I have read the thread you suggested from kenid2k and found it very interesting. The questions to Ken from Joe were exactly the questions I would have asked
And Ken's answers were quite frankly what I wished to hear.

Still... I am not a conspiracy guy... Yet here we have all these "big names" The American heart association, The Red Cross, My Doctor for Peat’s sake, plus etc. and etc. touting high carbs low fat??? Great balls of fire?!?!

If these people are so wrong, these people that have the benefits of the finest education that money can buy, if these people are wrong and wrong would be the kindest I could say. The conclusion hangs over us like the sword of Damocles...

Again thanks so much for your response.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jan-05-02, 20:15
Karen's Avatar
Karen Karen is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 12,775
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: -/-/- Female 5 feet 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Vancouver
Default

I think you will find this interesting...

From the Soft Science of Dietary Fats by Gary Taubes

Science by committee
Like the flourishing American affinity for alternative medicine, an antifat movement evolved independently of science in the 1960s. It was fed by distrust of the establishment—in this case, both the medical establishment and the food industry—and by counterculture attacks on excessive consumption, whether manifested in gas-guzzling cars or the classic American cuisine of bacon and eggs and marbled steaks. And while the data on fat and health remained ambiguous and the scientific community polarized, the deadlock was broken not by any new science, but by politicians. It was Senator George McGovern’s bipartisan, nonlegislative Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs—and, to be precise, a handful of McGovern’s staff members—that almost single-handedly changed nutritional policy in this country and initiated the process of turning the dietary fat hypothesis into dogma.

McGovern’s committee was founded in 1968 with a mandate to eradicate malnutrition in America, and it instituted a series of landmark federal food assistance programs. As the malnutrition work began to peter out in the mid-1970s, however, the committee didn’t disband. Rather, its general counsel, Marshall Matz, and staff director, Alan Stone, both young lawyers, decided that the committee would address “overnutrition,” the dietary excesses of Americans. It was a “casual endeavor,” says Matz. “We really were totally naďve, a bunch of kids, who just thought, ‘Hell, we should say something on this subject before we go out of business.’ “ McGovern and his fellow senators—all middle-aged men worried about their girth and their health—signed on; McGovern and his wife had both gone through diet-guru Nathan Pritikin’s very low fat diet and exercise program. McGovern quit the program early, but Pritikin remained a major influence on his thinking.

McGovern’s committee listened to 2 days of testimony on diet and disease in July 1976. Then resident wordsmith Nick Mottern, a former labor reporter for The Providence Journal, was assigned the task of researching and writing the first “Dietary Goals for the United States.” Mottern, who had no scientific background and no experience writing about science, nutrition, or health, believed his Dietary Goals would launch a “revolution in diet and agriculture in this country.” He avoided the scientific and medical controversy by relying almost exclusively on Harvard School of Public Health nutritionist Mark Hegsted for input on dietary fat. Hegsted had studied fat and cholesterol metabolism in the early 1960s, and he believed unconditionally in the benefits of restricting fat intake, although he says he was aware that his was an extreme opinion. With Hegsted as his muse, Mottern saw dietary fat as the nutritional equivalent of cigarettes, and the food industry as akin to the tobacco industry in its willingness to suppress scientific truth in the interests of profits. To Mottern, those scientists who spoke out against fat were those willing to take on the industry. “It took a certain amount of guts,” he says, “to speak about this because of the financial interests involved.”
Mottern’s report suggested that Americans cut their total fat intake to 30% of the calories they consume and saturated fat intake to 10%, in accord with AHA recommendations for men at high risk of heart disease. The report acknowledged the existence of controversy but insisted Americans had nothing to lose by following its advice. “The question to be asked is not why should we change our diet but why not?” wrote Hegsted in the introduction. “There are [no risks] that can be identified and important benefits can be expected.” This was an optimistic but still debatable position, and when Dietary Goals was released in January 1977, “all hell broke loose,” recalls Hegsted. “Practically nobody was in favor of the McGovern recommendations. Damn few people.”

McGovern responded with three follow-up hearings, which aptly foreshadowed the next 7 years of controversy. Among those testifying, for instance, was NHLBI director Robert Levy, who explained that no one knew if eating less fat or lowering blood cholesterol levels would prevent heart attacks, which was why NHLBI was spending $300 million to study the question. Levy’s position was awkward, he recalls, because “the good senators came out with the guidelines and then called us in to get advice.” He was joined by prominent scientists, including Ahrens, who testified that advising Americans to eat less fat on the strength of such marginal evidence was equivalent to conducting a nutritional experiment with the American public as subjects. Even the American Medical Association protested, suggesting that the diet proposed by the guidelines raised the “potential for harmful effects.” But as these scientists testified, so did representatives from the dairy, egg, and cattle industries, who also vigorously opposed the guidelines for obvious reasons. This juxtaposition served to taint the scientific criticisms: Any scientists arguing against the committee’s guidelines appeared to be either hopelessly behind the paradigm, which was Hegsted’s view, or industry apologists, which was Mottern’s, if not both.
Although the committee published a revised edition of the Dietary Goals later in the year, the thrust of the recommendations remained unchanged. It did give in to industry pressure by softening the suggestion that Americans eat less meat. Mottern says he considered even that a “disservice to the public,” refused to do the revisions, and quit the committee. (Mottern became a vegetarian while writing the Dietary Goals and now runs a food co-op in Peekskill, New York.)

The guidelines might have then died a quiet death when McGovern’s committee came to an end in late 1977 if two federal agencies had not felt it imperative to respond. Although they took contradictory points of view, one message—with media assistance—won out.

The first was the USDA, where consumer-activist Carol Tucker Foreman had recently been appointed an assistant secretary. Foreman believed it was incumbent on USDA to turn McGovern’s recommendations into official policy, and, like Mottern, she was not deterred by the existence of scientific controversy. “Tell us what you know and tell us it’s not the final answer,” she would tell scientists. “I have to eat and feed my children three times a day, and I want you to tell me what your best sense of the data is right now.”

Of course, given the controversy, the “best sense of the data” would depend on which scientists were asked. The Food and Nutrition Board of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), which decides the Recommended Dietary Allowances, would have been a natural choice, but NAS president Philip Handler, an expert on metabolism, had told Foreman that Mottern’s Dietary Goals were “nonsense.” Foreman then turned to McGovern’s staffers for advice and they recommended she hire Hegsted, which she did. Hegsted, in turn, relied on a state-of-the-science report published by an expert but very divergent committee of the American Society for Clinical Nutrition. “They were nowhere near unanimous on anything,” says Hegsted, “but the majority supported something like the McGovern committee report.”
The resulting document became the first edition of “Using the Dietary Guidelines for Americans.” Although it acknowledged the existence of controversy and suggested that a single dietary recommendation might not suit an entire diverse population, the advice to avoid fat and saturated fat was, indeed, virtually identical to McGovern’s Dietary Goals.

Three months later, the NAS Food and Nutrition Board released its own guidelines: “Toward Healthful Diets.” The board, consisting of a dozen nutrition experts, concluded that the only reliable advice for healthy Americans was to watch their weight; everything else, dietary fat included, would take care of itself. The advice was not taken kindly, however, at least not by the media. The first reports—”rather incredulously,” said Handler at the time—criticized the NAS advice for conflicting with the USDA’s and McGovern’s and thus somehow being irresponsible. Follow-up reports suggested that the board members, in the words of Jane Brody, who covered the story for The New York Times, were “all in the pocket of the industries being hurt.” To be precise, the board chair and one of its members consulted for food industries, and funding for the board itself came from industry donations. These industry connections were leaked to the press from the USDA.
Hegsted now defends the NAS board, although he didn’t at the time, and calls this kind of conflict of interest “a hell of an issue.” “Everybody used to complain that industry didn’t do anything on nutrition,” he told Science, “yet anybody who got involved was blackballed because their positions were presumably influenced by the industry.” (In 1981, Hegsted returned to Harvard, where his research was funded by Frito-Lay.) The press had mixed feelings, claiming that the connections “soiled” the academy’s reputation “for tendering careful scientific advice” (The Washington Post), demonstrated that the board’s “objectivity and aptitude are in doubt” (The New York Times), or represented in the board’s guidelines a “blow against the food faddists who hold the public in thrall” (Science). In any case, the NAS board had been publicly discredited. Hegsted’s Dietary Guidelines for Americans became the official U.S. policy on dietary fat: Eat less fat. Live longer.
Creating “consensus”

Once politicians, the press, and the public had decided dietary fat policy, the science was left to catch up. In the early 1970s, when NIH opted to forgo a $1 billion trial that might be definitive and instead fund a half-dozen studies at one-third the cost, everyone hoped these smaller trials would be sufficiently persuasive to conclude that low-fat diets prolong lives. The results were published between 1980 and 1984. Four of these trials —comparing heart disease rates and diet within Honolulu, Puerto Rico, Chicago, and Framingham—showed no evidence that men who ate less fat lived longer or had fewer heart attacks. A fifth trial, the Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT), cost $115 million and tried to amplify the subtle influences of diet on health by persuading subjects to avoid fat while simultaneously quitting smoking and taking medication for high blood pressure. That trial suggested, if anything, that eating less fat might shorten life. In each study, however, the investigators concluded that methodological flaws had led to the negative results. They did not, at least publicly, consider their results reason to lessen their belief in the evils of fat.

from The Soft Science of Dietary Fat by Gary Taubes
Science (April 2001)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cholestrol disaster !! Chloep Cholesterol, Heart Disease 14 Sat, Apr-16-05 00:37
High Cholestrol lil_adr Atkins Diet 9 Wed, Jan-15-03 09:37
ur opinion about my cholestrol mani Cholesterol, Heart Disease 2 Wed, Sep-04-02 20:16
anyone have any hints about raising good cholestrol? towerprncs Cholesterol, Heart Disease 6 Thu, Jun-27-02 23:02
Ny cholestrol has risen too! Caroline Cholesterol, Heart Disease 2 Thu, Nov-22-01 15:24


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:34.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.