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  #766   ^
Old Fri, Dec-29-17, 08:39
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Some lean mass loss during weight loss is almost inevitable. Weight training might push things in the other direction. The thing about lean mass is, it isn't very energy dense.

Suppose somebody loses half a pound of lean mass for every half a pound of fat. Sounds horrible, right? A gram of fat has 9 calories. A gram of protein tends to come with 3 or 4 grams of water. So a gram of lean has about 1 calorie, a gram of fat 9 calories, and a person who gets 90 percent of their endogenous energy from fat during weight loss is still going to lose as much lean as fat. The numbers are a little off, because it's actually a bit more than 9 calories per gram fat or 4 per gram protein, but close enough.

http://archive.unu.edu/unupress/foo...7E/UID07E12.HTM

Phinney's reference here gives an example for an obese person getting 94 percent of their energy as fat--but at that rate, expected lean mass losses would still be 41 percent, again because of the much lower energy density of protein stores.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi40.htm

This old John Berardi article looks at calorie restriction vs. lean mass, in general the lower the deficit, the more slowly you're losing weight, the more is lost as fat vs. lean. Also the leaner you are, the more lean vs fat you'll lose, the fatter you are, the more fat vs. lean. I think he makes some false assumptions, at least for people who go from one extreme to the other, because most of the lean data is probably for people who'd been lean through their lives, dieted-down people are going to be a little different.
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  #767   ^
Old Fri, Dec-29-17, 09:47
Justin Jor Justin Jor is offline
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Posts: 184
 
Plan: Bernsteinish
Stats: 314/231/199 Male 6'1
BF:
Progress: 72%
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I want to mention again that lean mass does not equal muscle or even organ mass. Those things are lean mass, but lean mass is not only those things.
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  #768   ^
Old Fri, Dec-29-17, 12:05
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Yes. I find those differences interesting when looking at the difference in metabolic rate vs. lean mass in the Biggest Loser vs. bariatric surgery study Dr. Fung has brought up a few times.

Some factoids. One from Wikipedia;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate

Average skeletal muscle contribution to bmr in men is 18 percent. Bmr tracks with lean mass, but most of metabolic rate can't be attributed to muscle.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/...-than-a-female/

Livestrong guesses a typical lean mass for men at 40 percent. 20 percent fat is probably in the ballpark. That would put lean mass at 80 percent, 40 percent of it skeletal muscle.

Now, suppose you diet down while weight lifting, preserving muscle mass. What is the effect on basal metabolic rate? It might be higher. What's the effect on basal metabolic rate vs. lean mass? You've preserved or even increased the portion of lean mass that makes the smallest contribution to basal metabolism per pound.

Or take another tack, bariatric surgery, lose more lean mass. Same idea, muscle contributes less than other lean tissues to metabolic rate. If a greater proportion of the lean mass that's lost comes from the relatively less metabolically active muscle tissue, you could have less of a fall in metabolic rate vs. lean mass. Should you call that a victory?
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  #769   ^
Old Sat, Dec-30-17, 16:30
dcc0455 dcc0455 is offline
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Posts: 167
 
Plan: Low Carb
Stats: 230/165/160 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 93%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser


If nothing else, the bmr calculations help explain why it gets so much harder to continue losing weight, after a significant weight loss. For example, my bmr according to the wiki page, was 1808 calories per day at 230 lbs. I hit a stall at 170 lbs, when my bmr was at 1531 calories per day. Since I hadn't made any changes over that period, that 300 calorie difference came right out of the deficit. Another way to look at is its like increasing my calories eaten by 300 per day. At 155lbs, my bmr is down to 1463 calories per day and I have been finding maintenance challenging. While I am not really gaining weight, I have been fluctuating a few lbs up and down while I experiment with adding carbs. The bottom line is if I want to lose another 10 lbs, I probably have to go down to 1200 calories per day. .
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  #770   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 07:48
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Certainly something to consider. One thing you'll see a lot of is conflation of basal metabolic rate with calorie requirement, as if the calorie intake needed to maintain health and the intake for maintenance are identical. Requirement for maintenance might be lower at a lower body weight, requirement for satisfying the appetite/avoiding hunger is liable to go up.

Exercise gets criticized as a weight loss/maintenance tool since there's no guarantee that appetite won't simply increase to make up for the energy use, or that we won't wind up a bit less twitchy when we're not exercising.. Maybe it's good in another way though, if somebody maintained at 1800 calories a day instead of 1500, if it's simply the same kind of food in slightly larger amounts, that's not just 20 percent more calories, it's 20 percent more micronutrition as well. Working up an appetite isn't all bad.
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  #771   ^
Old Sun, Dec-31-17, 12:08
dcc0455 dcc0455 is offline
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Posts: 167
 
Plan: Low Carb
Stats: 230/165/160 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 93%
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Calorie requirement is the hard part to determine. Most of the online calculators agree with the bmr but terms like sedentary or moderately active are open to a wide interpretation. I don't consider myself sedentary, but even with that setting, the calculator tells me I need 1781 calories per day to maintain my current weight. I must have a pretty slow metabolism because I am maintaining eating around 1400 calories per day.
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  #772   ^
Old Mon, Jan-01-18, 11:34
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,439
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Wall Street Journal discovers Satchi Panda's research 2 years after publication.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-diet...ries-1514721601

A Diet Strategy That Counts Time, Not Calories
You can eat whatever you want with time-restricted feeding, just not whenever you want. The weight-loss regime limits eating to a 12-hour window each day and is good for diabetes prevention, longevity and blood pressure.
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  #773   ^
Old Tue, Jan-02-18, 11:06
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,439
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Reminder for the New Year:

The #1 Rule of Fasting...always make sure you are doing it safely.
by Dr Fung

https://idmprogram.com/1-rule-fasting/

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Jan-02-18 at 12:43.
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  #774   ^
Old Tue, Jan-02-18, 12:46
Ambulo's Avatar
Ambulo Ambulo is online now
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Posts: 3,198
 
Plan: LerC, TRE, IF
Stats: 150/120/120 Female 64 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: the North, England
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Quite. I like his climbing Mount Everest analogy. I am sure I could walk up Ben Nevis fasted before I had my one meal. After a longer fast, no way.
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  #775   ^
Old Sun, Feb-04-18, 07:17
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80202123836.htm

Quote:
Crash diets can cause transient deterioration in heart function

Crash diets can cause a transient deterioration in heart function, according to research presented today at CMR 2018.1 Patients with heart disease should seek medical advice before adopting a very low calorie diet.

"Crash diets, also called meal replacement programmes, have become increasingly fashionable in the past few years," said lead author Dr Jennifer Rayner, clinical research fellow, Oxford Centre for Magnetic Resonance, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK.

"These diets have a very low calorie content of 600 to 800 kcal per day and can be effective for losing weight, reducing blood pressure, and reversing diabetes," she added.2 "But the effects on the heart have not been studied until now."

This study used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to investigate the impact of a very low calorie diet on heart function and the distribution of fat in the abdomen, liver, and heart muscle.

The study included 21 obese volunteers. The average age was 52 years, average body mass index (BMI) was 37 kg/m2, and six were men. Participants consumed a very low calorie diet of 600 to 800 kcal per day for eight weeks. MRI was performed at the start of the study and after one and eight weeks.

After one week, total body fat, visceral fat and liver fat had all significantly fallen by an average of 6%, 11%, and 42%, respectively. This was accompanied by significant improvements in insulin resistance, fasting total cholesterol, triglycerides, glucose and blood pressure.

However, after one week, heart fat content had risen by 44%. This was associated with a deterioration in heart function, 3 including the heart's ability to pump blood.

By eight weeks, heart fat content and function had improved beyond what they had been before the diet began and all other measurements including body fat and cholesterol were continuing to improve.

Dr Rayner said: "The metabolic improvements with a very low calorie diet, such as a reduction in liver fat and reversal of diabetes, would be expected to improve heart function. Instead, heart function got worse in the first week before starting to improve."

"The sudden drop in calories causes fat to be released from different parts of the body into the blood and be taken up by the heart muscle," she continued. "The heart muscle prefers to choose between fat or sugar as fuel and being swamped by fat worsens its function. After the acute period in which the body is adjusting to dramatic calorie restriction, the fat content and function of the heart improved."

More research is needed to discover the impact of the acute reduction in heart function. In people with existing heart problems it might exacerbate their condition -- for example aggravating heart failure symptoms like shortness of breath or increasing the risk of arrhythmias.

Dr Rayner said: "If you have heart problems, you need to check with your doctor before embarking on a very low calorie diet or fasting. People with a cardiac problem could well experience more symptoms at this early time point, so the diet should be supervised."

She added that very low calorie diets do have benefits and do not need to be avoided. "Otherwise healthy people may not notice the change in heart function in the early stages," she said. "But caution is needed in people with heart disease."


Quote:
"The sudden drop in calories causes fat to be released from different parts of the body into the blood and be taken up by the heart muscle," she continued. "The heart muscle prefers to choose between fat or sugar as fuel and being swamped by fat worsens its function. After the acute period in which the body is adjusting to dramatic calorie restriction, the fat content and function of the heart improved."


This study looked at a diet not supported by the forum--but the switch from a mixed to a fat metabolism isn't limited to very low calorie diets. The idea that a sort of fuel crisis might add to the risk involved in changes in fluid/electrolytes is interesting. Most of the energy spent in basal metabolism is just the work involved in pumping water and electrolytes in and out of cells.

The first time I did Atkins induction, I really enthusiastically embraced the high fat aspect, and had symptoms of major electrolyte issues, including heart flutters, major dips in blood pressure etc. Now after years of low carbing, I can eat just like I did then, and feel great. Even with some of the supported plans, maybe it makes sense for anybody with compromised heart function to ease into things.
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  #776   ^
Old Tue, Feb-13-18, 08:08
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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https://asweetlife.org/cause-of-dea...ecommendations/

Quote:
Cause of Death: American Diabetes Association Recommendations

I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes (LADA) when I was pregnant with my third son. I had been previously misdiagnosed with gestational and type 2 diabetes, and my husband had been living with type 1 for seven years at the time of my diagnosis. You could say I knew a few things about diabetes by the time I received my proper diagnosis. For example, I knew that Insulatard, the insulin I was taking, was not a great name for a product, and I knew that diabetes was a disease of carbohydrate intolerance. And the latter is where I kept getting stuck. Why, I asked the pallid dietician I saw every three weeks in the high-risk pregnancy clinic, are you so adamant about pregnant women with diabetes eating bran flakes?

“Fiber,” she said.

For a short while, I bought into the bran flakes-fiber theory. Except there was one undeniable problem: bran flakes made my blood sugar soar. So did the whole wheat bread I was supposed to eat as a snack at 11:00 a.m., even if I wasn’t hungry. So did the portions of fruit that had been assigned to my diet.

About halfway through my pregnancy, the dietician and I had a falling out.

“I’m not eating bran flakes,” I said.

“Then have corn flakes ,” she replied. “Less fiber, but still good.”

I looked at her, feeling the same sense of bewilderment that overcomes me when the president tweets.

“Why should I eat something that makes my blood sugar go up so much?” I asked. “It doesn’t make sense.”

“That’s why you take insulin,” she said. “To bring your blood sugar down.”

Right. More Insulatard, the medication I’d begun to pretend was named after a prince in a Nordic fairy tale. I stared at the food pyramid diagram she was showing me for the third time.

Back then, I didn’t really comprehend what eating low carb entailed. I don’t think I’d ever heard of the ketogenic diet. And the only thing I understood for certain was that just as 1+1=2, carbs+diabetes=significant rise in blood sugar. So, although when it comes to following my health care professionals’ instructions, I’m normally, compliant, adherent, obedient, strict, and straight-laced, when a recommendation is illogical, I question it.

I asked my endocrinologist if I needed to eat bran flakes. He told me the dietician at the clinic was great. I asked my obstetrician about the bran flakes. “As long as they aren’t sweetened, it should be fine,” he said. My GP told me carbs were important for happiness. He dismissed my argument that I didn’t feel happy when my blood sugar was high. In fact, nothing stressed me out more than the realization that with every vapid bite of bran, I was harming my baby. When I turned to the American Diabetes Association for guidance, the recommendations were the same as my doctors’. Eat whole grains and take your medication. And still today, nine years after my pregnancy, the American Diabetes Association is preaching a low fat diet rich in whole grains and fruit. Click through their website and you will find recommendations like this, “Dried fruit and 100% fruit juice are also nutritious choices.”

Excuse my language, but WTF?

Those are good choices only if your goal is high blood sugar, diabetes complications, and early death. The Association is lying to people with diabetes, and the health care professionals who subscribe to its guidelines are complicit in the lie. The argument that a low carb diet is not sustainable is not an argument. Of course, it’s a given that not everyone is capable of sticking with a low carb diet. I’m guilty of the occasional slice of pizza or piece of fruit, too. But at least I know the truth: the only reason a person with diabetes should ever have fruit juice or dried fruit is when they are experiencing hypoglycemia. It’s time for the Association to own up to the truth that people with diabetes should not be encouraged to eat carbohydrates. And yesterday, in a way, it did. The Association sent out a fundraising email with the subject line: Cause of Death: Diabetes. It’s a punchline of sorts, and loaded with irony, because if you live according to its recommendations, death by diabetes may very well be the case.

Finally, a truth.

Here’s another one. A low carb diet isn’t all that difficult. It does take some thought and planning ahead. But there is a wealth of good content online to help people with diabetes get started on a low carb diet. There are recipes for low carb versions of almost every meal and dessert. Sometimes it’s hard to say no to the things our bodies can’t tolerate. But good health requires realism.


Nothing new here, but good to see this out there. I got to this article clicking from an article where more than a dozen "experts" were explaining to diabetics why they either shouldn't or couldn't do a ketogenic/low carb diet.

Quote:
So, although when it comes to following my health care professionals’ instructions, I’m normally, compliant, adherent, obedient, strict, and straight-laced, when a recommendation is illogical, I question it.


I like this bit. This isn't about being contrary for the purpose of being contrary. It's not distrust. It's not common sense vs. science, in this case, it's more like an observation that can be made at home--common science. If your doctor tells you that bran cereal will be good for your blood sugars, and you're the one doing the measuring, you're the one in the position to make the call, not them.

Although, if you can't trust your doctor to do due diligence on something like this, can you trust them when they tell you that homeopathy is nonsense? It is nonsense, but that doesn't rest on you doctor's authority.
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  #777   ^
Old Tue, Feb-13-18, 08:32
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Doing My Best
Posts: 4,924
 
Plan: LC/CancerRecovery
Stats: 170/135/130 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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We are used to being lied to by practically every institution. The difference is that with the internet came knowledge of good and evil. Now we KNOW we're being lied to.

There are those of us who always question authority. Luckily, we're all here.

Thanks for the ray of hope that someday the medical profession will catch up with Dr. Fung. And us.
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  #778   ^
Old Wed, Feb-14-18, 09:22
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Doing My Best
Posts: 4,924
 
Plan: LC/CancerRecovery
Stats: 170/135/130 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Did you get the IDM email offering 2 months free membership? Here's what mine said:
Quote:
Monthly Membership Launch!!!!
At the Intensive Dietary Management program (www.IDMprogram.com), we are excited to launch our new membership program.

We are excited to offer a membership community to help you lose weight and regain your health. Membership costs $39 USD per month.

We have a limited time offer and are happy to give you a 2 MONTH FREE TRIAL to our new program! Click here to register!

No coupon code is needed, the membership with a 2 month free trial will be added to your cart automatically. All you need to do is add your details.

You may cancel at any time, no questions asked.

Membership will include access to exclusive benefits including:
Recipes
Meal Plans
Communal Group Fasts led by Brenda Zorn
Private forum
Weekly video Q&A with IDM team members
Science updates where we review the latest research
Will you be joining? Or maybe just have the free look-see? The site is ultra busy this morning because of the program launch.
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  #779   ^
Old Wed, Feb-14-18, 14:12
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,044
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Received the IDM email this morning. Not planning to join and not because I have any issue with IDM, but more because I'm a member of DietDoctor.com, and find that at this stage in my health journey, that is the site that is most valuable to me at this time. I hope that IDM is very successful, as they've been an immense help to so many. Best wishes to the IDM team.
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  #780   ^
Old Fri, Feb-16-18, 09:11
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Doing My Best
Posts: 4,924
 
Plan: LC/CancerRecovery
Stats: 170/135/130 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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I'm sure hoping that with this new money-making venture the old blog info doesn't go away. I go back to it over and over again. So filled with helpful and valuable science which helps me understand how to deal.
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