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  #1   ^
Old Sat, Apr-06-13, 19:29
Merralea Merralea is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 33
 
Plan: hf, lc, rf
Stats: 215/164/135 Female 58.5 inches
BF:??%/27%/18%
Progress: 64%
Default Is strength training during weight loss worth it?

So, the typical bro science says that one can either be "bulking" (gaining muscle) or "cutting" (losing fat), but never both at once. I'm partway through a rather large amount of weight loss (70+lbs) right now, and do cardio regularly. While putting on weight, I lost a fair amount of muscle, and want it back, but I'm afraid weight training during weight loss will have little/no results and will generally be a waste of time best put off until I'm closer to my goal weight. Is this correct, or is it possible to be gaining muscle while losing fat? Any studies and such on this? Personal experiences?

Thanks in advance.
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-13, 11:26
Equinox's Avatar
Equinox Equinox is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,919
 
Plan: dr. Boz Keto Continuum
Stats: 265/226/165 Female 175 centimeters
BF:53/46.8/21
Progress: 39%
Location: Oslo, Norway
Default

Yes it's possible. Read The art and science of low carb performance by Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney, Slow Burn by Fred Hahn, search fathead-movie.com, livinlavidalowcarb.com, marksdailyapple.com and leangains.com (blogs, three low carb-centric and one intermittent fasting), just to start.

The idea is tenacious, but wrong. Never stop at broscience.

Last edited by Equinox : Sun, Apr-07-13 at 11:54.
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-13, 11:26
Fauve Fauve is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,274
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 167/135/127 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: Victoria, BC
Default

oh, very good question, and one I have no answer for at the moment; but I would like to know too.
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  #4   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-13, 11:31
Equinox's Avatar
Equinox Equinox is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,919
 
Plan: dr. Boz Keto Continuum
Stats: 265/226/165 Female 175 centimeters
BF:53/46.8/21
Progress: 39%
Location: Oslo, Norway
Default

Also, read Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. He talks about how if gaining weight, trainees should drink a lot of milk, except if they're already overweight!


The reason being, milk is very anabolic, and drinking a gallon a day (GOMAD) helps create what he calls an artificial growth spurt. But in an overweight individual, the conditions for growing more tissue are already there, so they shouldn't add lots of milk, and might expect to simultaneously lose fat and add muscle.

Paraphrasing from memory, but I think that was the gist of it.
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-13, 12:35
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Another good read is The TNT Workout, co-authored by Jeff Volek who also co-authored The New Atkins. It has several plans for building muscle while losing fat eating low carb. I got my copy for 1 cent + $3.99 shipping at Amazon. It's worth way more than that.
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-13, 16:01
Trusylver's Avatar
Trusylver Trusylver is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 113
 
Plan: Strict Keto (u 15 carbs)
Stats: 207/185/185 Female 5'2
BF:-/32%/20%
Progress: 100%
Location: Australia
Default

You should be weight training while cutting the fat, even if you are not eating enough to gain muscle it should to be done to maintain the muscle you still have. It is also possible to gain muscle but diet needs to be finely balanced. Also, even if you are not gaining muscle size you can definitely be building strength while loosing.
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  #7   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-13, 21:38
Daryl's Avatar
Daryl Daryl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,427
 
Plan: ZC
Stats: 260/222/170 Male 5-10
BF:Huh?
Progress: 42%
Location: Texas
Default

It can be done!
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Apr-08-13, 01:33
Equinox's Avatar
Equinox Equinox is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,919
 
Plan: dr. Boz Keto Continuum
Stats: 265/226/165 Female 175 centimeters
BF:53/46.8/21
Progress: 39%
Location: Oslo, Norway
Default

I'm actually re-reading The art and science at the moment. Keep in mind it's actually a booklet meant for lean athletes and their coaches.

Volek and Phinney are STILL recommending a 80% fat diet, while explaining the bio-chemistry behind the recommendation and why a low carb diet (or what they very deliberately call a "well-formulated low carbohydrate diet") is PROTEIN-SPARING rather than muscle-wasting.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Apr-08-13, 07:47
Daryl's Avatar
Daryl Daryl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,427
 
Plan: ZC
Stats: 260/222/170 Male 5-10
BF:Huh?
Progress: 42%
Location: Texas
Default

You might also Google some Lyle McDonald, and Alan Aragon, Mcdonald has written a lot about keto diets and lifting, and Aragon, while not a low carber, does believe that one can lift, gain, and not pack on fat.
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, Apr-08-13, 07:47
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

I think the 80% fat thing may vary. According to Dr Donald Layman , whom Jimmy Moore interviewed some months back, everybody, men and women, no matter what size, need on the order of 100 grams of protein per day, optimally 30 grams at each of 3 meals, spread throughout the day. The body cannot store protein in that form, so it needs a regular, almost constant supply. What percentage that 100 grams (400 calories) is of one's diet is going to depend on overall calorie intake. Because I normally eat 1500-1650 calories per day, it is more like 23-28% of my intake, and with 5-10% carbs, that leaves me at 60-70% fat. While I agree carbs must be low, it is more important to get the absolute amounts of necessary protein than to keep fat at 80% when losing fat and gaining muscle. Now if you're talking Dr Phinney's group of bike riders who burn 2-3x the calories in a day than I do, they may well be at >80% levels of fat.
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Apr-08-13, 10:17
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
Default

Yes, you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, if conditions are right. It depends on your body and your program.

Tom Venuto is an old school bodybuilder who knows his stuff if you can get past his harping on calories. He at least acknowledges hormonal effects of training and that some people do best by manipulating carbs also. He also has a new book "Holy Grail" something about exactly this.

http://fitnesstrainingdownloads.com...nd-gain-muscle/
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, Apr-08-13, 15:50
Merralea Merralea is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 33
 
Plan: hf, lc, rf
Stats: 215/164/135 Female 58.5 inches
BF:??%/27%/18%
Progress: 64%
Default

Wow, thanks everyone! This is really helpful, and glad to know. Look like I have some reading to do this week
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, May-23-13, 04:18
kaitlynewo kaitlynewo is offline
New Member
Posts: 1
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 140/134/125 Female 167
BF:
Progress: 40%
Default

I agree, that is possible, though be sure to follow carefully some things so that you will not experience some back track.
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  #14   ^
Old Sun, Aug-25-13, 18:31
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janjfree janjfree is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,635
 
Plan: Primal/Paleo Atkins
Stats: 197.5/126/132 Female 63
BF:19.4%
Progress: 109%
Location: Baltimore, MD
Default

I lost all my weight first. I was pretty fixated on the scale and getting the numbers to go down. I know that I also lost some muscle as I lost fat and now wish I had staved off that muscle loss by doing weight training from the beginning. It is harder to put the muscle back on than to keep what you already have. Wish I'd realized that back then.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Oct-11-13, 18:36
kjs1775's Avatar
kjs1775 kjs1775 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 930
 
Plan: Atkins Indunction (DANDR)
Stats: 205/202/130 Female 5'2 or 62''
BF:42%/???/28%
Progress: 28%
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by janjfree
I lost all my weight first. I was pretty fixated on the scale and getting the numbers to go down. I know that I also lost some muscle as I lost fat and now wish I had staved off that muscle loss by doing weight training from the beginning. It is harder to put the muscle back on than to keep what you already have. Wish I'd realized that back then.


Glad to get a live perspective from experience janjfree!! I've been in the same mindset about getting the weight off first ( I'm 25 down with about 60 more to go). I keep thinking I'll wait until xx lbs and then start. But I went ahead and started 6 was ago. I do low weight high reps for strength. Soo glad to hear your experience!!
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